Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!? - Page2

May 6, 2005 11:05:57 AM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: I think you miss the point.

Fanch,

I am leaving behind my 'Rice Rocket' to buy this 911! Strangely changing from something very hard and noisy, to something more luxurious and 'compromised'

Did you not see my words that I need 'Quality'. This thing has to last for 2 years!! I aint buying no dodgy Fiat!

One further point. Will many UK dealers actually hold -20mm demo cars it being such a small segment of the market? I think probably not. Chances are I will buy my PASM and never get to even test a -20mm car.

...Add

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May 6, 2005 11:24:05 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: madadd

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
madadd said:
Fanch,

Did you not see my words that I need 'Quality'. This thing has to last for 2 years!! I aint buying no dodgy Fiat!

One further point. Will many UK dealers actually hold -20mm demo cars it being such a small segment of the market? I think probably not. Chances are I will buy my PASM and never get to even test a -20mm car.

...Add

Yeah shame, that's true about P17 997S at UK dealers.
They are usually ordered cars and picked up by clients straight away.
They are a few in Germany and France for sale if you ever come on the continent.
What rice rocket did you have before?
Don't underestimate the Gransport, pretty well built IMHO, definitely too much body roll and softish suspensions on the track, but excellent GT, and that noise!!!

I'll confirmed that on the weekend of the 14th of May, I've been invited to track test the whole Maserati range at Circuit de Mortefontaine (Ceram), can't wait!
Hopefully, a passenger drive in the MC12!

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May 6, 2005 11:32:45 AM

ACA: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005; Reply to: madadd

Re: I think you miss the point.

Add, unfortunately there are no UK dealers with -20mm fitted to their demo cars. Before I decided to go for -20mm i hunted high n low for a demo with -20mm. Your best bet is to look at used 997S for -20mm fitted car, but even that will be a struggle. Choosing this option has taken me considerable time and effort to make. You should also give consideration to the comments made by those members who actually own -20mm 997s or have driven one. I dont think your average OPC sales rep is the best person to advise you on this as they havn't driven a -20mm equip car either. With regard to resale, there has been two -20mm 997s on the Porsche web site at they both sold within a week and priced the same as PASM 997S. I guess because they are 'rare' this compensates for the lack of mass appeal of PASM. At the end of the day though, if you have driven a PASM 997S and are attracted to its features then prehaps you should stick with it.

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May 6, 2005 11:33:42 AM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: WBH

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

Quote:
VKSF said:
You raise several valid points re: 997S PASM vs -20mm vs GT3 vs (insert favorite other competing sportscar) for most real-world weekend warrior amateur drivers on bumpy mountain twisties....I doubt many amateurs would have materially different times on a bumpy, real-world set of twisties in any of these outstanding cars....but the reasons most guys get these cars are fundamentally emotional....for fun, visceral driving experiences...thus, many F loyalists have always argued the times are irrelevant (esp since most (often cheaper) P's beat comparable F's around N-ring; some P guys will say F guys can't drive; F's don't run....blah blah); smart answer is get the toy(s) (potentially both P and F) that provide one the most pleasure.....Walter's N-ring times are just fun benchmarks w/which to compare these phenomenal cars.....

I do race (not everyday and not for earning money) but I am still an amateur holding an FIA driving license. My observation is that many amateur weekend racer would do the fastest lap with a car having only straight performance. I have seen so many Porsche GT2 and GT3 racing on Hockenheimring much slowier then Porsche Turbo or even sometimes SL55 AMG. In the corners where they should be much faster they are faster but not enough. So they loose on straight lines and don't gain much time by later breaking (you have to have large eggs for that) and they drive through the corners not much faster.

So some options and cars are more emotional then we can drive it. If somebody likes more comfort then he should take PASM. She/he want be slower. If somebody needs -20 and the LSD it's ok she/he will have only a little bit less comfort.

But -20 mm is a no extra cost option for 997 S. Am I wrong?

AM

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May 6, 2005 11:35:38 AM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: I think you miss the point.

The -20mm is definitely a no cost option in the UK because I have it.

Secondly after 5000 miles in it I would definitely not swap for a PASM car as it feels too remote in comparison and on a track is not even close for fun.

Ride quality is also far better than a PASM equipped car in sport mode.

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May 6, 2005 12:09:06 PM

TheOldMan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Montreal, Canada; Posts: 214, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2004; Reply to: jjr1

Re: I think you miss the point.

If the -20mm/LSD is so much better than the PASM, why is it not available in North America? Is it because of legal or regulatory issues or a marketing decision?

The idea of a factory -20mm option sound very appealing, but I cannot say I am unhappy with the feel of the PASM. I love being able to switch between modes and find the sport mode very firm and enjoyable.

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May 6, 2005 12:13:34 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3998, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: TheOldMan

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
TheOldMan said:
If the -20mm/LSD is so much better than the PASM, why is it not available in North America? Is it because of legal or regulatory issues or a marketing decision?

In the past, it's been because of bumper height regulations.

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May 6, 2005 12:15:32 PM

jo996: Newbie; Loc: Germany, Cologne; Posts: 10, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 11, 2004; Reply to: Phoenix_911

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
Phoenix_911 said:
I'm a kind of a "beginner" and in the first quarter of 2006 I'm going to order my first 911 (997) and think of getting the Carrera S .
I'm going to use my Porsche nearly everyday and will do long trips (400 km) with it... my question is:
Wouldn't it be too hard, when I drive everyday? Therefore the 'confortable' setup of the 'normal'-modus of PASM is a real good solution... isn't it?

Hi Phoenix 911

my advice is to testdrive both cars.
I am driving a 997S with -20mm. It is the best 911 I ever had.
As a beginner I owned a "soft" 996 Cabrio with a lot of comfortable features. From car to car I "needed" a more sportier car (PSE, short-shifter, 19", PCCB etc).

I am now driving this 997S as a daily driver, even on longer drives. For me it's not a problem. You can experience the real fun of equipment like -20mm by joining an race-weekend or car-fun-training .

Jo

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May 6, 2005 12:20:19 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3998, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: madadd

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
madadd said:
I think that maybe others miss the point. ... (Not as much missing the point as those guys who buy PCCB purely to save weight, then add weight through adaptive seats, BOSE and Wood)

...Add

The subtle (too subtle?) point of fitting lighter PCCB has to do with reducing un-sprung weight. Seats, BOSE and wood add to sprung weight and have little effect on tire/wheel natural frequency and damping characteristics.

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May 6, 2005 1:25:44 PM

993c4: Newbie; Loc: singagpore; Posts: 28, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: madadd

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

It's not a waste of money...... It's a no charge option and it gives people a CHOICE. It is an optional item after all.

There's a saying, different pokes for different folks!

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May 6, 2005 1:51:00 PM

Phoenix_911: Pilot; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 475, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: jo996

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
jo996 said:
Quote:
Phoenix_911 said:
I'm a kind of a "beginner" and in the first quarter of 2006 I'm going to order my first 911 (997) and think of getting the Carrera S .
I'm going to use my Porsche nearly everyday and will do long trips (400 km) with it... my question is:
Wouldn't it be too hard, when I drive everyday? Therefore the 'confortable' setup of the 'normal'-modus of PASM is a real good solution... isn't it?

Hi Phoenix 911

my advice is to testdrive both cars.
I am driving a 997S with -20mm. It is the best 911 I ever had.
As a beginner I owned a "soft" 996 Cabrio with a lot of comfortable features. From car to car I "needed" a more sportier car (PSE, short-shifter, 19", PCCB etc).

I am now driving this 997S as a daily driver, even on longer drives. For me it's not a problem. You can experience the real fun of equipment like -20mm by joining an race-weekend or car-fun-training .

Jo

Thank you for your reply, jo996!

I might do it the same way, like you did it... first soft and than going more sportier.

Nevertheless I have a bit time to think about it. Is there any possebility to lower a PASM Carrera?

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May 6, 2005 2:02:24 PM

Rami: Senior; Loc: Belgium; Posts: 760, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Phoenix_911

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
Phoenix_911 said:
Does someone know if it is possible to lower the Carrera with PASM???

Nevertheless, I'll do my very best to get a testdrive on 997 with P17 (sport susp.) .

I know Tech-Art now has special setups available for PASM fitted 997's.

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May 6, 2005 2:04:18 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Phoenix_911

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:

Is there any possebility to lower a PASM Carrera?

I don't know unfortunately.
But according to RC it is very difficult and not recommandable because we are dealing with non conventionnal suspensions here.
However, if you check tuners website like Techart, they do offer lowering kits, but beware, as always, it voids warranty.

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May 6, 2005 2:27:33 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: I think you miss the point.

My sincere recomendation, is to wait and let others try the lowering kits for the computerised PASM first and then see what the results are in handling, lowering is easy, improving handling or at least not messing it up is not because, like Fanch mentions, they are not conventional spring/shocks.

I have my doubts personally. Tunners will sell anything, somethings good, somethings bad, so get independant reviews first on any tunner product before you buy. If they develop lowering springs but they can't get them to work well with the PASM "system" they will sell them anyway, because the car still looks lower.

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May 6, 2005 2:39:37 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: madadd

Apologies

But why criticise something you've never tried? Fine if you tried it and came to the conclusion that it was too uncomfortable, and with some of the roads in England that would be a fair comment, but to draw conclusions without trying it seems like a poor process to decision making to me.

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May 6, 2005 2:46:59 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Apologies

The -20mm is far from uncomfortable on English roads and can even cope admirably with Irish ones and they really are poor.

This is just someone who spends too much time reading articles and speculating on something he knows nothing about.

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May 6, 2005 2:59:15 PM

ACA: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005; Reply to: jjr1

Re: Apologies

I believe a lot of the -ve views regarding the ride quality of the -20mm in the UK has come from OPC dealers, i can remember when i said to my dealer that i wanted to opt for -20mm his faced dropped as if -20mm option was a fatal disease!!! yet he had never driven a car with -20mm!!!

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May 6, 2005 3:34:18 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: ACA

Re: Apologies

Quote:
ACA said:
I believe a lot of the -ve views regarding the ride quality of the -20mm in the UK has come from OPC dealers, i can remember when i said to my dealer that i wanted to opt for -20mm his faced dropped as if -20mm option was a fatal disease!!! yet he had never driven a car with -20mm!!!

I have a feeling if he had a -20mm in stock, he would be more than happy to sell it to you.

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May 6, 2005 4:40:26 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: You must be a Rover driver!

Quote:
Trundle997S said:
Living in the US, I wish that we had your dilemma...
but as it stands the only choice we get is PASM..

If -20mm was available in the US, I would have dropped PASM like an ugly stepchild. I actually waited for several months hoping the option would be available, and then decided to go ahead with PASM.

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May 6, 2005 5:21:54 PM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Apologies

Le Chef,

Just got off the phone to the dealer my order is with.

I asked about the likelihood of me getting to test the -20mm suspension. He reckoned the likelihood of him having this on one of his cars that I can test is somewhere near to nil (As it may put off more folks than it attracts).

So in abscence of this test drive. I need to throw out questions. If i were to order -20mm It would most likely be without said test drive.

Many people that I have heard speak of -20mm refer to it as some great performance enhancement. But on reflecion this may not be the case. So why not question whether the benefits really outweigh the advantages compared with PASM.

I like my lowered cars. I love a very hard ride. However, I have not seen enough written to convince me to ditch PASM.

In truth, I wuld love to have reason to put the sports suspension on my order. It was the intention of my post to create a debat where my points were proven wrong.

Finally.. Just go back and read my post. I am not criticising -20mm at all. I am singing the glories of PASM. And I don't believe the -20mm will be uncomfortable at all. Where did you get that idea?

Cheers

..Add

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May 6, 2005 5:31:39 PM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: I think you miss the point.

Fanch,

Assuming you read my above post. Dealer says no to test drive of -20mm. He went as far as to say 'its a bit low'. His words not mine!

On the phone, he told me his demo aerokit car is in soon tho. In guards. That will be interesting. But no PSE! Porsche havnt sent him one out yet. Due to the shortages, they gave stock to customer cars first, so dealers weren't allowed. Doubts he'll have one in to listen to before I have to spec my car (Having it anyway though!)

I still have my 'ricer'. It is a Skyline that I got carried away with and kept spending money on. But its time to move on. The garage who tunes it will mourn the passing of my business!

...Add

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May 6, 2005 5:51:30 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: madadd

Re: I think you miss the point.

Quote:
madadd said:
Fanch,

Assuming you read my above post. Dealer says no to test drive of -20mm. He went as far as to say 'its a bit low'. His words not mine!

On the phone, he told me his demo aerokit car is in soon tho. In guards. That will be interesting. But no PSE! Porsche havnt sent him one out yet. Due to the shortages, they gave stock to customer cars first, so dealers weren't allowed. Doubts he'll have one in to listen to before I have to spec my car (Having it anyway though!)

I still have my 'ricer'. It is a Skyline that I got carried away with and kept spending money on. But its time to move on. The garage who tunes it will mourn the passing of my business!

...Add

Add,
Your dealer is a moron, how can 10mm make the car a bit too low compared to the PASM equipped one.
Maybe one of the Rennteamers could arrange a ride as a passengers in the UK on a P17 99S for you?
Ask, you never know.
I love the Skyline and Jap sports cars in general, Ferrari France has strong ties with Subaru and my friend at Ferrari was lended an STI recently, AWESOME!!! We loved it!!!

PS: Did I say your dealer was a moron?
PPS: Oh and a w*nker too!

"A bit low" still can't belive it!

PPPS: A very good driver will outperform a PASM 997S with a P17 997S but I'm no good driver, I'm getting it bc it's more raw to learn how to drive (I intend to track), and I'm a bit of purist (not to say nerd really!

)

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May 6, 2005 6:08:31 PM

Jean: Veteran; Loc: Seoul , South Korea; Posts: 1033, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2002; Reply to: madadd

Re: I think you miss the point.

As I've suggested earlier, it's a matter of comfort/performance.

To further define your dillema, I think you are pondering between the refined ride of PASM vs. the fun factor of LSD.

Since you said this is your daily driver, perhaps you should go for comfort.
On the other hand, I drive my Porsche purely for fun.

Personally, although I DID see electronic controlled suspension that satisfies my comfort driving needs (Lexus LS430 or the comfort mode of Cayenne Turbo come close), I have not seen a single electornic controlled suspension that meets my perfomance driving need.

They would have to be damn good for me to choose the electronic for my next sports car. In addition, no active suspension is truly active until they can bump AND rebound actively.

To each on his/her own.

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May 6, 2005 7:26:04 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: madadd

Re: Apologies

Quote:
madadd said:
Le Chef,

Just got off the phone to the dealer my order is with.

I asked about the likelihood of me getting to test the -20mm suspension. He reckoned the likelihood of him having this on one of his cars that I can test is somewhere near to nil (As it may put off more folks than it attracts).

So in abscence of this test drive. I need to throw out questions. If i were to order -20mm It would most likely be without said test drive.

Many people that I have heard speak of -20mm refer to it as some great performance enhancement. But on reflecion this may not be the case. So why not question whether the benefits really outweigh the advantages compared with PASM.

I like my lowered cars. I love a very hard ride. However, I have not seen enough written to convince me to ditch PASM.

In truth, I wuld love to have reason to put the sports suspension on my order. It was the intention of my post to create a debat where my points were proven wrong.

Finally.. Just go back and read my post. I am not criticising -20mm at all. I am singing the glories of PASM. And I don't believe the -20mm will be uncomfortable at all. Where did you get that idea?

Cheers

..Add

I think this is a great thread, thanks madadd. Those of us outside the US are blessed with this choice to make, but at least they can't regret their decision! Just thought I'd add my opinions, as I've been lucky enough to drive the -20 car again 2wks ago, having had my PASM car about 7weeks. When I ordered my car, they only had -20mm demonstrators, and I never got to drive a PASM car till mine arrived.

The fun driving roads here are not smooth either. While PASM is a great idea, and will get better I suspect, I find normal mode a bit too soft, and sport mode too firm when driving for fun. I have persisted with sport mode on several occasions because the the turn in and body roll is significantly better, but when you get thrown off the bumps mid corner, it's a bit unnerving and I find myself resorting to normal mode. It'd be interesting to hear other opinions on sport mode.

The -20mm feels far more like what I thought a 911 should feel like. Frim enough to give good body control, yet compliant enough to absorb those bumps. Ride comfort around town is, in my opinion about half way between normal and sport mode on a PASM car, and coming from sports suspension equipped BMWs and Mercs, I could easily live with it.

If ordering again, I'd choose the -20mm with PCCB... actually I'd get Fanch's car....but I can easily live with my decision. Obviously you should drive both yourself for extended periods if you can even if it means travelling abroad.

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May 6, 2005 7:49:09 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: Leong

Re: Apologies

Madadd doesn't want to listen and has already formed his own opinions. Despite everybody who has driven a -20mm saying it is softer than a PASM in sports mode he keeps harping on about how it will be too hard for daily use.

Personally I think he should order a Merc SL as that is the sought of car which would suit him better.

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May 6, 2005 8:40:02 PM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: jfraser

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

Quote:
jfraser said:
Not when the lap takes 480 seconds to complete

Ya but 4 seconds for the same car with different suspension setup? I would take seconds anywhere I could get them. Am I completely wrong on this? I know it is a huge track but still there is still something to accounted for in that improvement, even if the ratio of improvement/total track time is a low percentage.

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May 6, 2005 11:28:07 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Leong

Re: Apologies

Quote:
Leong said:
Quote:
madadd said:
Le Chef,

Just got off the phone to the dealer my order is with.

I asked about the likelihood of me getting to test the -20mm suspension. He reckoned the likelihood of him having this on one of his cars that I can test is somewhere near to nil (As it may put off more folks than it attracts).

So in abscence of this test drive. I need to throw out questions. If i were to order -20mm It would most likely be without said test drive.

Many people that I have heard speak of -20mm refer to it as some great performance enhancement. But on reflecion this may not be the case. So why not question whether the benefits really outweigh the advantages compared with PASM.

I like my lowered cars. I love a very hard ride. However, I have not seen enough written to convince me to ditch PASM.

In truth, I wuld love to have reason to put the sports suspension on my order. It was the intention of my post to create a debat where my points were proven wrong.

Finally.. Just go back and read my post. I am not criticising -20mm at all. I am singing the glories of PASM. And I don't believe the -20mm will be uncomfortable at all. Where did you get that idea?

Cheers

..Add

The fun driving roads here are not smooth either. While PASM is a great idea, and will get better I suspect, I find normal mode a bit too soft, and sport mode too firm when driving for fun. I have persisted with sport mode on several occasions because the the turn in and body roll is significantly better, but when you get thrown off the bumps mid corner, it's a bit unnerving and I find myself resorting to normal mode. It'd be interesting to hear other opinions on sport mode.

If ordering again, I'd choose the -20mm with PCCB... actually I'd get Fanch's car....but I can easily live with my decision. Obviously you should drive both yourself for extended periods if you can even if it means travelling abroad.

Thanks a lot for the compliment Leong, especially coming from you!

Seriously, I find very interesting your comment on the PASM suspensions in sport mode.
And you HAVE driven both so you KNOW what you're talking about. I guess it is the limitations of electronically governed suspensions even though the computer can work road surface change in milliseconds.
Defnitely more for GT cars, I'll confirm once I've driven one.
Seems Ferrari has done a really good job with the Skyhook on the F430 though!

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May 6, 2005 11:54:04 PM

bluelines: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Argovia , Switzerland; Posts: 11655, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: Apologies

So... the -20mm sports suspension sits comfy between PASM normal and sport mode, and performs better on track - Sounds like a good setup, glad I ordered it

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May 7, 2005 12:14:03 AM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: jjr1

Especially for jjr1

Jjr1,

I think you have something of a problem.

Do you every write anything worthwhile?

Do you even read the posts that you reply to?

I quote ..

"Think you are talking bollocks personally. When you have driven both come back to me and give me your real opinion.

PASM equipped cars are too soft in comfort mode for fun and far too hard in sports mode to actually be of any benefit."

I would estimate (though I could be wrong) that most members here would disagree with that last bit.

"This is just someone who spends too much time reading articles and speculating on something he knows nothing about."

Lost on this as well. What do I know nothing about? Do all of us here not spend a fair amount of time reading various articles?

And finally ..

"Madadd doesn't want to listen and has already formed his own opinions. Despite everybody who has driven a -20mm saying it is softer than a PASM in sports mode he keeps harping on about how it will be too hard for daily use"

Oh boy! If you could just stop for five minutes, pull your head out your ars3 and point out where I claim that the -20mm is too hard I would be greatful!

If all you can do is bitch. About statements I haven't even made! Please don't bother!

..Add

P.S. Sorry folks . Although many have been having a fun and light hearted debate here. JJR seem to want to do nothing but dig at me. I resisted replying to the first two posts. But three. Come on!

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May 7, 2005 12:55:22 AM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Dealer visit

Fanch,

I am nipping in to see the dealer tomorrow.

I will pass on your regards to him!

Cheers

..Add

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Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	32209	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	29998	140
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	25384	225
Porsche	911 S/T	9/21/24 5:26 AM Pilot	24198	59
Porsche	Macan EV	1/25/24 9:10 AM RC	21996	28
Motor Sp.	Formula 1 2024!!	6/15/24 11:25 AM Anderson	21938	217
Porsche	993 4S	3/10/24 12:54 PM blueflame	17036	49
Porsche	992FL	12/27/23 5:49 PM Wonderbar	16434	16
BMW M	New device for DD	11/23/23 11:58 PM Whoopsy	11260	9
Porsche	win the lottery? what would you buy?	9/14/24 12:36 AM Pilot	8135	61
BMW M	BMW XM	2/22/24 9:56 PM Enmanuel	7052	23
Porsche	Taycan ST vs EQS580	1/5/24 1:45 AM mcdelaug	6558	14
Porsche	New Panamera Turbo order	3/29/24 3:25 PM N11KOY	6299	7
Ferrari	The SSO Awards: 2023	12/30/23 6:57 PM CGX car nut	6270	6
McLaren	McLaren 650S Spider: 5 Years as my Daily Driver	10/17/24 6:16 AM sour	6057	12
Porsche Asia	red 997 gt3 S-Go 5104	11/20/23 9:38 AM Oj911	5871	6

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Forum - Thread

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Apologies

Re: Apologies

Re: Apologies

Re: Apologies

Re: You must be a Rover driver!

Re: Apologies

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: I think you miss the point.

Re: Apologies

Re: Apologies

Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

Re: Apologies

Re: Apologies

Especially for jjr1

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