Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PASM Sport Mode - Page1

Mar 26, 2005 9:42:18 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004

PASM Sport Mode

IMO PASM Normal is a good compromise for daily driving.

To me Sport mode is much less comfortable, but offers significantly better turn in, body control and feel. Great when pushing it on smooth roads. But on bumpy roads it feels like if I hit a bump, it might throw me off the road (it doesn't seem to, it just feels that way to me). Is this because both bound and rebound damping are increased by the same amount, where as on a conventional, say the -20mm suspension, there may be more rebound damping? And are the electronic suspensions of say the new M5 the same?

Officially "broken in!!

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Mar 27, 2005 11:49:40 AM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: Leong

Re: PASM Sport Mode

well i belive its the same philoshophy but with different approach.
As for the sport mode i feel exactly the same at bumpy roads.
Nevertheless, the sport mode helps a lot to have presice steering even on staight roads with speeds over 200 kph.

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Mar 27, 2005 12:08:27 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Actyally i' ve driven new M5 and i have to confess it's a very impressive car. It was the other "candidate"' for me berofe buying 997.

I don't know about the precise differences on damping but in sport mode the car did not feel nervous at all.

I believe the MAIN reason you feel a little "unstable'' with 911s has to do with the short wheelbase (shorter than a MINI, or Ford Ka !) and not with the stiff damping. But after all this extremely short wheelbase it's part of 911 legendary history.

It has drawbacks and needs a little more help to exploit it's potential but after all M5 is not a true sports car. For me it's the best sport sedan ever made. And by the way much faster than Carrera S on open road (if you deactivate speed limiter).
But is this really the point?

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Mar 27, 2005 12:12:00 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: zoltan

Re: PASM Sport Mode

nope but thats not what Leong said

you mentioned the M5 's performance,not him

But nevertheless, M5 is a big car, and as good as they want to present it its heavier bigger, and more difficult to feel the sensations of true driving especcially through tight bends,i mean what would you think would be your impressions, going to Sounio with the M5 vs the Carrera S,
I believe,after travelling this road several times that its the ideal car for this trip ;!

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Mar 27, 2005 12:18:26 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Leong

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
Leong said:Is this because both bound and rebound damping are increased by the same amount, where as on a conventional, say the -20mm suspension, there may be more rebound damping?

When going from Normal to Sport mode in PASM, only the bound is increased but the rebound is maintained the same since the PASM can only change the dampners and not the springs.
In the -20mm however, both bound and rebound are increased accordingly to match each other, but it doesn't have Normal mode to go back to.

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Mar 27, 2005 12:18:55 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: PASM Sport Mode

From Varkiza to Fokea (open, wide turns) it would be a hard fight. From Fokea to Sounio i believe it would be Porsche's territory.

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Mar 27, 2005 12:22:05 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: zoltan

Re: PASM Sport Mode

but the true trip is from fokea to Sounio!

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Mar 27, 2005 12:35:03 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: PASM Sport Mode

You damn right

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Mar 27, 2005 12:54:22 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14171, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: zoltan

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Can you guys print a map?

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Mar 27, 2005 12:56:21 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PASM Sport Mode

well imagine this

_
_
_
can u ? no ,know why, because its extaordinary amazing with a slight essence of danger!

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Mar 27, 2005 8:00:25 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: zoltan

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
zoltan said:
Actyally i' ve driven new M5 and i have to confess it's a very impressive car. It was the other "candidate"' for me berofe buying 997.

I don't know about the precise differences on damping but in sport mode the car did not feel nervous at all.

I believe the MAIN reason you feel a little "unstable'' with 911s has to do with the short wheelbase (shorter than a MINI, or Ford Ka !) and not with the stiff damping. But after all this extremely short wheelbase it's part of 911 legendary history.

It has drawbacks and needs a little more help to exploit it's potential but after all M5 is not a true sports car. For me it's the best sport sedan ever made. And by the way much faster than Carrera S on open road (if you deactivate speed limiter).
But is this really the point?

Yes the M5 was my other consideration too, but doesn't arrive here till end of the year, people thought me nuts for comparing a large sedan to a sports car, but each has it's advantages.

The words nervous and unstable are exactly what I meant, but this is only in sport mode, on bumpy roads. I suppose the effects of the short wheelbase would be more obvious with the dampers set to a firmer setting. It would be interesting to drive the Carrera S with the -20 suspension on the same road, as I don't remember this "nervousness". Pity the demonstrator's been sold.

On previous cars where I have upgraded the dampers, there has not been the bump upwards, but the car felt more "planted" ie you feel the "drop" into the bump, then notice no "bounce" upwards.

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Mar 27, 2005 8:50:51 PM

Holminator: Veteran; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 1041, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Leong

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Yeah, on the track, you kind of know what to expect from the pavement after a few warm-up laps so I try to only use PASM on road I know and not on problem areas like crossing railroad tracks, etc. Well, that's my little approach to it for what it's worth.

(Yesterday on the way back from Philadelphia)

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Mar 27, 2005 9:10:31 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
When going from Normal to Sport mode in PASM, only the bound is increased but the rebound is maintained the same since the PASM can only change the dampners and not the springs.

COuld be showing my ignorance here, but I thought bound damping referred to the damping effect when the shock and spring were being compressed, and rebound to the damping effect when being released. When I used to race model cars, we would setup our dampers so that there is less damping effect on compression, and more on release. ie. if you hit a lump on the road, and the wheel went up, then there is less damping, so it moves up in the suspension easier, without causing the body to move up. Increased damping on rebound would absorb the springs energy on rebound, so the car wouldn't "bounce" off the road. You can feel this effect in uprated suspension, because you only ever feel the car dropping into potholes, and never have the feeling of being bumped upwards, in my experience. This is what I describe as the "planted" feeling...I'm sure there a better way to describe it.

From the diagrams I've seen of a PASM shock absorber, it seems that if you put it into sport mode, it shuts off a bypass valve, thus increasing the damping effect, but I think, and it feels like it happens in both directions, not only on rebound, hence the question

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Mar 27, 2005 9:23:24 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: Holminator

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Hey Tony, that road could not be more different from the roads I'm talking about here!!

I hear what you're saying about about knowing the roads, and selecting the suspension mode to use. It may just be that what I'm picking up is the difference between PASM Sport mode and the optional -20mm Sport suspension.

Perhaps Fanch would care to comment on this after the weekend!!

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Mar 27, 2005 9:30:07 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Leong

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
Leong said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
When going from Normal to Sport mode in PASM, only the bound is increased but the rebound is maintained the same since the PASM can only change the dampners and not the springs.

COuld be showing my ignorance here, but I thought bound damping referred to the damping effect when the shock and spring were being compressed, and rebound to the damping effect when being released. When I used to race model cars, we would setup our dampers so that there is less damping effect on compression, and more on release. ie. if you hit a lump on the road, and the wheel went up, then there is less damping, so it moves up in the suspension easier, without causing the body to move up. Increased damping on rebound would absorb the springs energy on rebound, so the car wouldn't "bounce" off the road. You can feel this effect in uprated suspension, because you only ever feel the car dropping into potholes, and never have the feeling of being bumped upwards, in my experience. This is what I describe as the "planted" feeling...I'm sure there a better way to describe it.

From the diagrams I've seen of a PASM shock absorber, it seems that if you put it into sport mode, it shuts off a bypass valve, thus increasing the damping effect, but I think, and it feels like it happens in both directions, not only on rebound, hence the question

Leong, my bad, I just re-read my post and I wrote bound or compression in the place of rebound and vicebersa.

Genereally speaking as I understand it, the springs are more related to the compresion aspect and the shocks with the rebound, therefore since PASM in the sport mode only the shocks change and not the springs, rebound may be decreased byb the stiffer setting of the shocks but the springs remain the same and do not control compresion proportinoally. I know the shocks also play a role in comprssion (my bikes and quads shocks are compresion and rebound adjustable as well) but the shocks don't do it alone thats what the springs are for. In in the -20mm the shock and springs are perfectly matched because they only have one setting, so the -20mm performs better but has less versatility/confort since it only has a sport mode in turn.

The PASM in sport mode has similar or even stiffer dampning at times than the -20mm, yet the springs remain softer than the -20mm. Maybe this certain degree of unmatching of the springs to the dampners in the sport mode is what you feel in the PASM in sport mode, but I doubt it since I would think that would be setup to be hard to notice or of influence, maybe the car you drove needed more miles for the suspensions to settle, or maybe its due to the electronic nature of the dampners

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Mar 27, 2005 9:41:25 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
in in the -20mm the shock and springs are perfectly matched because they only have one setting, maybe this is what you feel in the PASM in sport mode. So the -20mm performs better but has less versatility/confort since it only has a sport mode.

That's what I was thinking.... couldn't I have my Normal mode, then hit a button and turn my car into one with -20mm suspension? I think just changing the damping bound vs rebound electronically would suit me fine. Changing the spring rates electronically may be more difficult (air springs?) May have to find out how BMW have done the suspension on the M5

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Mar 27, 2005 9:49:48 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Leong

Re: PASM Sport Mode

Quote:
Leong said:
Perhaps Fanch would care to comment on this after the weekend!!

Not happening Leong

Due to work reasons, have to delay test drive, the good news is that it's not a dealer car, it's a friend's car, the black one you saw on my rallye de Paris pics, equipped with PCCB and -20 chassis.
If work permits, I'll drive it the weekend of end of April, long way away, sorry.
I will only be able to compared it to the my 996 with -10 mm suspensions, as I have not yet driven a 997S with PASM.

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