Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife*** - Page1

Feb 26, 2005 12:53:06 PM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003

BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I report this news from another source:

...i can't believe what i've just heared - in spring 2005, so not that far away, HvS from Sport Auto will get a Ferrari Enzo Ferrari for their Supertest, and from what i have heared they'll get it directly from the factory - now i'd like to hear some confidential infos if anyone from the Ferrari freaks in here have heared anything about the rumours that Ferrari has been working on a special Nordschleife setup for the Enzo after they received MASSIVE complaints - of course everything in the background - why they don't respond to the Carrera GT's lap time and whenever a comparison took place on a track the GT's been in front...

so we know that during industry pool sessions Ferrari sometimes rented a workshop inside the industrial park right next to the NS and they clocked quite some laps with an Enzo - there's also a rumour that Ferrari now has a so called "full car" test rig from AVL where engineers can simulate all stored tracks on the car itself, i only know that VAG, BMW and Porsche have such a ( extremely sophisticated and expensive ) test rig...

...as HvS told some time ago... "Sport Auto is just a kinda small mag and basically consists and concentrates on only one thing - the Supertest - but the results of this test are known all over the world because NO other information source is providing onfidential and detailed infos about the hardest challenge for any sports car - a timed lap on the Nordschleife..."

...this says it all IMO - an outstanding lap time at NS is good for becomming a classic and reaching automotive heaven, let's hope that Ferrari will continue this project for all their future cars, personally i'm definitely looking forward to an interesting challenge Ferrari vs Porsche ( and all the others ) at the Nordschleife and can't wait for the SA Supertest in spring/summer 05...

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Feb 26, 2005 1:07:38 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: andrea

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I heard a similar rumour but I also heard that Ferrari wants to send engineers/mechanics with the car to the Nordschleife and this sounds a little bit weird to me.
But I don't think they have a chance to cheat, Horst von Saurma is well known for his nose for detecting cheating. He never says it directly but whenever he mentions in an article that a car performed surprisingly better than it should, you get a hint what he meant.

I'm curious to see this time too but of course the Enzo is a great car. A Porsche engineer I talked to a few months ago told me that the Carrera GT in his opinion has only one single real competitor in the world: the Enzo. When I mentioned the SLR, he was laughing and making jokes. He should know it, they drove them all.

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Feb 26, 2005 1:16:03 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I hope they don't cheat. Its got to be a standard car, exactly the same as the one delivered to the customers, period. No tinkering with the Enzo's elctronic suspensions for example to artificially adapt it to perform specifically on the ring. And that would be difficult for Saurma to tell because he has no references to compare if the car has been tampered with

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Feb 26, 2005 1:17:23 PM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

We will see the winner......I think that Ferrari will go to the Nordschleife to beat the carrera gt's record, and 2 surely will adopt a special set-up for that track.
I think that Ferrari will be happy if the Enzo will be in a range of 5-8 seconds faster than Carrera GT.

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Feb 26, 2005 1:23:05 PM

xspencex: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 54, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 26, 2004; Reply to: andrea

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

If ferrari take a team of engineers to 'the ring' to beat the Carrera GT's time...I think it would be a little unfair..Porsche didn't send a team of experts..to maximise its GT's potential....

Ferrari have been known to bend the unwritten rules...Their press cars are always faster than customer cars..

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Feb 26, 2005 1:45:14 PM

Lamzik: Junior; Loc: Estonia; Posts: 69, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 25, 2005; Reply to: xspencex

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I think Enzo will beat Carrera GT time, because basically it is faster( I like Carrera GT nevetheless I think that Ezi is faster).By the way, what time did Carrera GT show on'ring' ?

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Feb 26, 2005 1:53:59 PM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: Lamzik

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Enzo was delivered on Fiorano circuit.
Carrera GT on Nordschleife.
So Ferrari has to learn important info for the setup.
I guess that they will use the info also for the F430 Challenge Stradale....

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Feb 26, 2005 2:37:28 PM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: andrea

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

its CGT wooping time

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Feb 26, 2005 5:10:30 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: arakis

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

The better test is to bring 2 normal production customer cars of each model, run them all on same sunny day to neutralize weather effects on track surface and average out the runs . Letting Ferrari supply the car for essentially a PR event ( to prop owner's egos ) to " prove" the naysayers are wrong about the Enzo's possible inferiority on the NS vs the C-GT is bogus , IMO , esp on a factory Enzo supplied long after end of production - it's gonna be so " prepped " and probably not like any customer car in it's motor ECU , traction control settings and programming for susp mgmt , so what's the point ?

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Feb 26, 2005 5:36:07 PM

Lamzik: Junior; Loc: Estonia; Posts: 69, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 25, 2005; Reply to: MKW

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

They(Ferrari) just want to prove that Enzo is better than Carrera GT...

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Feb 26, 2005 5:41:15 PM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: Lamzik

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
Lamzik said:
By the way, what time did Carrera GT show on'ring' ?

I beleive a few fractions over 7:32

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Feb 26, 2005 5:46:21 PM

Lamzik: Junior; Loc: Estonia; Posts: 69, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 25, 2005; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
I beleive a few fractions over 7:32

Thats fast

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Feb 26, 2005 5:57:06 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

yep, its the only way Ferrari would accept.

Zonda, Lambo, Merc/McLaren, Porsche, etc have all supplied normal production cars to SportAuto to test and compare how they do on the world's toughest, most varied and most representative of the real-world track on the planet. None of them were afraid and play fair and as presumed the CGT was the fastest one of all.
Yet Ferrari since the Enzo came out has prohibited any of the produced Enzos to be tested ever on the ring, well there can only be one reason for that, and since Ferrari knows their car better than anybody, then who am I or anybody else to argue against their own opinion of their car's performance in the ring?

I'm still fairly confident SportAuto will invite at least the CGT to the test with the same "oportinities"

Ferrari is given and in the same enviromental conditions chosen for the test and just let the best car win, its what we ALL want isn't it?

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Feb 26, 2005 6:31:58 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Something doesn't add up...Enzos seemed to sell reasonably well, have decent resale value and did OK in many mag comparos vs CGT; CGT's haven't achieved similar mkt success; don't know of many Enzo buyers who have turned down Enzo to get CGT...some own both. So why would F really care to be a part of any comparo that risks Enzo posting worse times than CGT...unless they can structure comparo that Enzo wins? Just don't see much upside to F mucking around w/these comparos involving an old, sold-out model like Enzo....;q

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Feb 26, 2005 7:44:23 PM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: WBH

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
VKSF said:
Something doesn't add up...Enzos seemed to sell reasonably well, have decent resale value and did OK in many mag comparos vs CGT; CGT's haven't achieved similar mkt success; don't know of many Enzo buyers who have turned down Enzo to get CGT...some own both. So why would F really care to be a part of any comparo that risks Enzo posting worse times than CGT...unless they can structure comparo that Enzo wins? Just don't see much upside to F mucking around w/these comparos involving an old, sold-out model like Enzo....;q

Ego, reputation, and future sales are at risk.

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Feb 26, 2005 8:07:25 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WBH

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
VKSF said:
Something doesn't add up...Enzos seemed to sell reasonably well, have decent resale value and did OK in many mag comparos vs CGT; CGT's haven't achieved similar mkt success; don't know of many Enzo buyers who have turned down Enzo to get CGT...some own both. So why would F really care to be a part of any comparo that risks Enzo posting worse times than CGT...unless they can structure comparo that Enzo wins? Just don't see much upside to F mucking around w/these comparos involving an old, sold-out model like Enzo....;q

I agree.

I doubt very much it is a factory sponsored event if this RUMOR is true. Ferrari has absolutely nothing to gain by participating.

If true,I have to laugh regarding some of the posts claiming it may be unfair for Ferrari to bring engineers to the ring to help set up the car. Porsche has made over a billion dollars selling cars set up specifically to perform well on the ring.

Also, it is comical that people talk in terms of cheating taking place. They will say anything to protect Porsche.

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Feb 26, 2005 8:28:38 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
Quote:
Lamzik said:
By the way, what time did Carrera GT show on'ring' ?

I beleive a few fractions over 7:32

7:28

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Feb 26, 2005 8:32:40 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: arakis

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
arakis said:
its CGT wooping time

7:24.37 is my educated guess. Time to put CGT in its place. Second place that is.

Nevertheless, CGT is a phenomenal car.

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Feb 26, 2005 9:10:51 PM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: Lamzik

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I am afraid that Ferrari will have to face very serious problems to beat the Carrera GT.

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Feb 26, 2005 9:11:20 PM

NeverLift: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 30, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Ferrari will have to send their race dept with a Special set up to best 7:28. They will have to do this because in no way with their standard set up will they top the CGT at the Nring!

If they do try and tweak their car special for this its ok. Herr Rohrl has stated many times if Porsche ran a special Nring set up the CGT would be much faster. The Enzo will have to have a special set up to take on a standard street set up CGT. LOL What needs to happen is both factories need to go toe to toe like in the early 70s at Lemans. We all know what happened then! Muuhhaaaa

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Feb 26, 2005 9:12:26 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

7:28 by Walter Rohl
7:32 by Von Saurma

Nick, what I find comical is how you missed the point clouded by your bordering obsesive bias

The point is both cars should identical to the production cars delivered to the customer, nothing more, nothing less.
The ring is not in one of Jupiter's moons, if the car is good in the real world (not in a flat, smooth grippy GP track), it will handle well in the ring (thats why Ferrari didn't alow an Enzo there), thats the purpose of the ring, the ring's setup is the real world roads, the ring doens't have a specific clear setup like a normal track, it has over 20km, an uneven and changing surface, and over 140 types of different curves.
All the tests are conducted with standard production models no matter if they are a german BMW, an italian Lambo, an english Lotus, or a japaneese NSX, and so was the CGT, why should Ferrari be different?

while they are at it they can bring some special ring tires too

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Feb 26, 2005 10:44:38 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
7:28 by Walter Rohl
7:32 by Von Saurma

Nick, what I find comical is how you missed the point clouded by your bordering obsesive bias The point is both cars should identical to the production cars delivered to the customer, nothing more, nothing less.
The ring is not in one of Jupiter's moons, if the car is good in the real world (not in a flat, smooth grippy GP track), it will handle well in the ring (thats why Ferrari didn't alow an Enzo there), thats the purpose of the ring, the ring's setup is the real world roads, the ring doens't have a specific clear setup like a normal track, it has over 20km, an uneven and changing surface, and over 140 types of different curves.
All the tests are conducted with standard production models no matter if they are a german BMW, an italian Lambo, an english Lotus, or a japaneese NSX, and so was the CGT, why should Ferrari be different? while they are at it they can bring some special ring tires too

Let me help you understand. Porsche builds its cars for track conditions and not as we know straight speed. Other car manufacturers focus on acceleration, handling and comfort. We all know Porsche is not a "drag race" car. A viper, corvette, cobra and other cars would leave a 911 gasping for air in straight perf.

However, whenever a discussion centers on perf. on Porsche boards it is always the Ring time. Since the car is designed for that environment how can anyone object to other cars setting up their car for the Ring?

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Feb 26, 2005 11:29:17 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

And Nick, when ever someone mentions some rice rockets can run close to a Porsche or Ferrari , the latter's owners' universal response is always to divert attention to subjectives like oh the resale , oh the prestige ,oh the beauty, oh the SOUND, oh the feel of the steering at 45 mph , etc.

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Feb 27, 2005 12:28:02 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
nberry said:
However, whenever a discussion centers on perf. on Porsche boards it is always the Ring time. Since the car is designed for that environment how can anyone object to other cars setting up their car for the Ring?

Sportcar enthusiasts focus on ring time because its the best indicator of the real world performance aspect of a sportcar of any track in the world. Since P-cars are set up for real world efficacy they perform well in the ring. But setting a car up specifically for a "test" on the ring waiving the other compromises they incorporate for "street'ability" in the production versions is a different story, see the difference? a drag strip would be the best place to measure and compare accelerations between a muscle car and a Porsche, but should the Porsche be allowed to run a special setup of suspensions, traction control, etc while the muscle car be left stock because the muscle car is better suited from factory for drag races? like Rohrl said, a special ring setup CGT would be even faster than the CGT they did 7:28 with, should Porsche be allowed to use such a car for the SportAuto test? well then, neither should the Enzo... nor the Zonda, nor the SLR, nor the Murc, etc. The point is to see which is faster in the 8mile Nring in the customer setup, then each can draw their own conclusions form it.

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Feb 27, 2005 12:42:40 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Carlos there is a venue where all car manufacturers can set up their cars as they like to compete. It is called Formula One racing. Oops I forgot Porsche does not like to compete in any race events where engineering really matters.

Better to dope the public and live off your pass laurels. Why not, the sap's continue to buy their cars.

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Feb 27, 2005 1:10:11 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
nberry said:

Better to dope the public and live off your pass laurels. Why not, the sap's continue to buy their cars.

Last I checked YOU have been a sap many times over and currently still one and I'm sure will be again in the future . You're a masochist , for sure.

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Feb 27, 2005 1:11:48 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Side tracking now are you?

Yeah, the Formula 1 circus is the best representation of non-politisised competition and least corrupted by economic interests... I always though that endurance racing was better at testing and developing technologies and know-how for application in street sportcars, ooops I forgot Ferrari always got their but kicked by Porsche there and their only oasis has been F1 were Porsche never showed any interest except in their brief their domination with the Tag Turbo engine until it was abolished by a change in rules

There is a difference between "some" Porsche buyers and "some" Ferrai buyers (you always get me to generalise about Ferrari and I don't want to since its not fair but...), and that is that Porsche buyers will continue to make Porsche more succesfull than Ferrari as long as they continue to build best performing sportcars inpite of living of past laurels, while Ferrari will be in big trouble if when they can't live off their laurels since they depend more on the image of their cars than their performance

BTW, F1 starts next week and keep an eye out for Alonso

he has been the fastest driver/car of the pre-season, hopefully the Renault will be reliable enough

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Feb 27, 2005 3:51:48 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

I can't wait for the impending Ferrari IPO, whereby investment bankers , their board appointments and their bean counters will from then on have the say in Ferrari's future weighing limited V8 production and it's US dealer/buyer game ( whereby a few hundred MSRP buyer slaves MUST play by the rules - queened silver, red, or titanium only,driven cautiously less than 3K miles per year in order to flip profitably ) vs maximizing thousands of shareholders' stock value ( which means producing more cars and other models to jack profits ) instead of hiding under decrepit " mama FIAT's " skirt like in the past 40 years.

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Feb 27, 2005 3:58:53 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
nberry said:

Better to dope the public and live off your pass laurels. Why not, the sap's continue to buy their cars.

Last I checked YOU have been a sap many times over and currently still one and I'm sure will be again in the future . You're a masochist , for sure.

Hmnn, I am a sap? I buy one of the world best sport cars coveted by 99% of sport car enthusiasts. I drive it for as long as I want and turn around a sell it for more than what I paid for it. Is that the experience of Porsche owners?

I was talking with a Porsche salesman today and he told me his dealership cancelled 7 CGT's because they could not sell them and were concerned if they took delivery they would have to sell them at a loss. This is without a doubt one of the best (if not the best sport car) in the world but because of Porsches' reputation the car is saddled with a loser image. Now consider what the lowly 911 is worth.

Yes there are differences in the level of Sap's.

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Feb 27, 2005 4:13:50 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

Quote:
nberry said:

Yes there are differences in the level of Sap's.

Yes, and since you have in the past and still own current Porsche products, you sir ,are as Sappy as they come, I'm afraid.

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BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

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