Crown

MKSGR:

Italo:

 

the 991.2 turbo S is jut simply a disappointment, imagine the top of the range 991 being pited against the baby Mclaren 

You seem to have misread the test... Even though the 570 was obviously pimped for this test (it has better acceleration than the 650s despite having 75hp less) and even though the 570 was on UHP tires it got killed by the turbo s on street tires... Also, the brake performance of the 570 is rather poor despite UHP tires... If you now consider what you will get as a regular customer (i.e. a 570 with far less good acceleration) you can draw your own conclusions 

UHP tires? 

Not quite. Corsas are not that amazing. That R8 is on Cup 2 lol.

Far worse acceleration in a customer car? You're dreaming. There's a video of a 570S going 10.2 @ 135mph on a drag strip in the US. The car is a beast.

RC:

Markus, I have no proof, neither do you. You could be right but maybe the 570S is just a very fast car and yes, maybe it has 650 hp out of the factory and McLaren markets this car as their baby McLaren for marketing (and pricing) reasons.

As long as customers get this kind of power and performance, I have no problem with that. If customers get less power and performance, then I agree with you...not cool.

I strongly believe it is our task to write here about the probabilities of outcome A or B... The chances here are close to 100% that McLaren is cheating on their customers 

noone1:

MKSGR:

Italo:

 

the 991.2 turbo S is jut simply a disappointment, imagine the top of the range 991 being pited against the baby Mclaren 

You seem to have misread the test... Even though the 570 was obviously pimped for this test (it has better acceleration than the 650s despite having 75hp less) and even though the 570 was on UHP tires it got killed by the turbo s on street tires... Also, the brake performance of the 570 is rather poor despite UHP tires... If you now consider what you will get as a regular customer (i.e. a 570 with far less good acceleration) you can draw your own conclusions 

UHP tires? 

Not quite. Corsas are not that amazing. That R8 is on Cup 2 lol.

Far worse acceleration in a customer car? You're dreaming. There's a video of a 570S going 10.2 @ 135mph on a drag strip in the US. The car is a beast.

Just look at the press reports I posted above. Based on the numbers in these reports the 650s would be quite a bit slower than the 570 and the 675LT would offer the same performance... I am not stupid enough to believe in this nonsense.

noone1:

MKSGR:

Italo:

 

the 991.2 turbo S is jut simply a disappointment, imagine the top of the range 991 being pited against the baby Mclaren 

You seem to have misread the test... Even though the 570 was obviously pimped for this test (it has better acceleration than the 650s despite having 75hp less) and even though the 570 was on UHP tires it got killed by the turbo s on street tires... Also, the brake performance of the 570 is rather poor despite UHP tires... If you now consider what you will get as a regular customer (i.e. a 570 with far less good acceleration) you can draw your own conclusions 

UHP tires? 

Not quite. Corsas are not that amazing. That R8 is on Cup 2 lol.

Far worse acceleration in a customer car? You're dreaming. There's a video of a 570S going 10.2 @ 135mph on a drag strip in the US. The car is a beast.

Corsa is the Pirelli equivalent to Michelin's Cup2. And Pirelli has another step up in performance tires, the Trofeo R, which is available for 570S.

noone1:

MKSGR:

Italo:

 

the 991.2 turbo S is jut simply a disappointment, imagine the top of the range 991 being pited against the baby Mclaren 

You seem to have misread the test... Even though the 570 was obviously pimped for this test (it has better acceleration than the 650s despite having 75hp less) and even though the 570 was on UHP tires it got killed by the turbo s on street tires... Also, the brake performance of the 570 is rather poor despite UHP tires... If you now consider what you will get as a regular customer (i.e. a 570 with far less good acceleration) you can draw your own conclusions 

UHP tires? 

Not quite. Corsas are not that amazing. That R8 is on Cup 2 lol.

The Cup 2 for the R8 sucks big time, a couple of fast rounds on a serious track and the Cup 2 is toast. The road tire deteriorates after two rounds, the Cup 2 after four.  Close to the Corsa maybe but the Trofeo is much better (Huracan uses it). I have high hopes for the new R02 PZero for the R8, this tire is rumored to offer better dry performance than the Cup 2.  Pirelli apparently completely renewed and improved the compound of the PZero.

Far worse acceleration in a customer car? You're dreaming. There's a video of a 570S going 10.2 @ 135mph on a drag strip in the US. The car is a beast.

I haven't seen this video yet but I am pretty sure that sooner or later, customer cars will show up in videos and drag races, so it is difficult for McLaren to actually fool people. I rather think that the 570S is more powerful than McLaren admits. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

noone1:

 

I may be wrong but isn't that a manufacturer license plate? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

No. The owner is a member of McLaren Life.
 

Here's a 570S with higher trap than a 12C:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdS3aWD1bgU

Here its traps 135mph against a Huracan which does 129mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHLAO6sE8Lo

The car is the real deal. If it was quicker than a 675LT and 650S in this recent tests, it's because those cars just weren't there that day and those cars would have been even quicker. Different day, different cars, different results.

My neighbor in his 12C Spider was never able to pass me in my R8 up to 230 or 240 kph (don't remember anymore ), so the 570S in these videos would need to be much faster to achieve the numbers it achieved in that last review. 

I do not doubt that the 570S is very fast but it cannot be that fast with 570 hp only...  Unless McLaren tweaked throttle response, turbo lag, gearbox shifting times and ESP/traction control.

Then, I still wonder if the 570S wouldn't be the better buy than the 650S or the 675LT?  

Let me guess: You are thinking of getting one? 

Another stupid question regarding that "stock" 570S in the video: The owner claims the car is stock but why would he use 103 octane fuel then? (which is 106 octane fuel in Germany). There would be no power gain from that, unless he tweaked the ECU software. 

My GT500 was stock as well...  Just saying.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

No, I live to far from the dealer. Not buying a new McLarens any time soon.

Your results are anecdotal. His Spider weighs more and slightly worse drag and maybe has worn tires or a worse road, etc. 

Good 12C/570S trap speed is 134-135mph.
Good 650S trap speed is 137+
Good 675LT trap speed is 139+

Here's his post. He has 103 octane because he was low on fuel. No difference. The car was practically new and he already sold it for a 650S. 
 

I tried to update the thread title from the Atco thread, but can't figure out how to do it. So -

Had a great couple of hours at Atco today. Managed a best of 10.275 @ 135.21 on a 1.672 60' time. Backed it up with a 10.422 @ 135.4 on a 1.789 60' footer and a couple of 10.5's and 10.6's.

I had a hard time launching during the morning. Dropped my rears down to 29 psi, which did not seem to help. Added $20 worth of 103 octane because the tank was running low. Still, no real improvement.

Then one of the track attendants told me that I needed to do something to get all the pebbles off my tires and asked me to launch in the burnout box like I normally launch the car. Did a launch control burst on the concrete pad and managed to clean and heat up the tires nicely. Then my launches were much better. Dropped my 60's by 2 to 3 tenths. Huge improvement.

Have to say that I went there thinking that I would be disappointed with low 11's because I know that it can't launch hard without AWD or drag radials. Was just hoping to get one run that topped my 991 Turbo's 10.86 @ 128 mph. Boy, did the car acquit itself well.

Everyone - and I mean everyone - at the rental was amazed. Great car enthusiasts with all different cars just loving what this thing did out of the box.

noone1:

No, I live to far from the dealer. Not buying a new McLarens any time soon.

Your results are anecdotal. His Spider weighs more and slightly worse drag and maybe has worn tires or a worse road, etc. 

My "result" was a real life result on the Autobahn, not a drag strip. I know that McLarens are beasts at speeds over 160 kph but the 570S is an entry level model and the performance just doesn't add up. I do not share any suspicion that McLaren is cheating but I also doubt that the 570S achieving the performance it achieved had 570 hp only. Like I said, no problem if customer cars get the same power.

Worse road? We were on a German Autobahn (A8). You should see how the R8 destroys the Carrera GT on the Autobahn.   No surprise here though.

Good 12C/570S trap speed is 134-135mph.
Good 650S trap speed is 137+
Good 675LT trap speed is 139+

We don't do drag racing in Germany (only a few car nuts), we have the Autobahn. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

I've just been looking at the speeds achieved by Maccas at the vmax event I sometimes participate in, this is a 1.6 mile runway.

(918 Spider 203mph)

675LT = 203mph

12C between 191 and 195mph (different cars)

On a different day

(918 Spider 205mph)

570S 183mph

The 570S in the test has been tweaked for sure

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

Oh boy, I wish I could afford that 675LT.

Futch also has the highest regards for the 675...must be an amazing toy.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Here are someone's dyno results for all three cars. 570S has the same amount of TQ as a 12C, little less hp, better transmission, and probably better everything else.

Car HP Torque
570 533 433
12c 555 429
650 569 451

For looks, exclusivity and performance the 570S is THE car to get in that price range. Isn't the 650S older model? Maybe that's why the 570S is better... McLaren is not afraid to push the performance as they find it vs Porsche who tries to artificially protect their lineup. Kudos to them. If they made a 4 seater I would totally look into it. Performance is not just numbers on a paper, there are many factors contributing. The carbon tub technology is amazing, McLaren offers performance retrofits if possible, they are really trying where Porsche hands are tied up.

SciFrog:

For looks, exclusivity and performance the 570S is THE car to get in that price range. Isn't the 650S older model? Maybe that's why the 570S is better... McLaren is not afraid to push the performance as they find it vs Porsche who tries to artificially protect their lineup. Kudos to them. If they made a 4 seater I would totally look into it. Performance is not just numbers on a paper, there are many factors contributing. The carbon tub technology is amazing, McLaren offers performance retrofits if possible, they are really trying where Porsche hands are tied up.

+1, particularly following zee Brexit I will feel more inclined to buy home grown 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

Pirelli Corsas are no UHP Tires. Ive driven them and they are crap. Imho the Porsche N1 P Zero has more grip. You guys forget often about compund mixture. The newer the better and the Corsa is an "old" tire.

SciFrog:

For looks, exclusivity and performance the 570S is THE car to get in that price range. Isn't the 650S older model? Maybe that's why the 570S is better... McLaren is not afraid to push the performance as they find it vs Porsche who tries to artificially protect their lineup. Kudos to them. If they made a 4 seater I would totally look into it. Performance is not just numbers on a paper, there are many factors contributing. The carbon tub technology is amazing, McLaren offers performance retrofits if possible, they are really trying where Porsche hands are tied up.

The 675LT is also pretty new but like I said in a different post, maybe McLaren tweaked a couple of things to get the most out of the engine's power, I don't have a clue. It remains to be seen but if I learned one thing in automotive development, all car makers are cooking with water, so...  Also, with turbo charged engines, so many tricks are possible and engine software offers so many opportunities to detect dyno runs, test runs and whatnot, so a lot of cheating is possible.

Unlike Markus however, I am willing to give McLaren the benefit of a doubt because I really like their cars and how they shook up the whole sports car market lately.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Not sure it I'll happen but if McLaren drops the price in the US due to the GPB collapse it is going to be hard for Porsche and their ridiculous current prices, even Lambo will be in trouble. Ferrari is different, they can charge whatever they want and even force customers to load up options on the 488...

hunterone:

Pirelli Corsas are no UHP Tires. Ive driven them and they are crap. Imho the Porsche N1 P Zero has more grip. You guys forget often about compund mixture. The newer the better and the Corsa is an "old" tire.

The Cup 2 is not better than the Corsa but I agree, the new PZero N1 with the new compound mixture is an excellent tire and I just can't wait to get it for my car early August. The Trofeo R is a completely different story, this tire is a very good track tire, it doesn't deteriorate after a few fast rounds.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

SciFrog:

Not sure it I'll happen but if McLaren drops the price in the US due to the GPB collapse it is going to be hard for Porsche and their ridiculous current prices, even Lambo will be in trouble. Ferrari is different, they can charge whatever they want and even force customers to load up options on the 488...

I agree. I wish I had the time to accept that McLaren invitation for the 570S test-drive a couple of months ago but... 

Even the R8 is quite expensive (my car has a new price tag of 216k EUR with all the options) but unlike Porsche, Audi offers certain lease deals and rebates, so the R8 is actually much cheaper than the 570S for me. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

These cheap leases are not else than the brand accepting they mispriced the car in the first place.

$200K R8 is too expensive.

V8 R8 in 2008 was $126K.
V10 R8 in 2009 was $150K
V10 R8 in 2015 is $200K

The V10 R8 is just too expensive, just like the 911 Turbo. You don't need $200-300K to make insanely high performance cars anymore and people are aware.

SciFrog:

These cheap leases are not else than the brand accepting they mispriced the car in the first place.

I won't argue with you on this one, I think you are right.

Example: In 1987, the Porsche 959, the hypercar of that time, was 420000 German Mark.

420000 German Mark equal almost 215k EUR.

My Audi R8 V10 Plus is 216k EUR.

I know, I know...1987...inflation and whatnot but I think that 216k EUR for an Audi R8 is just too much money. 

Same goes to the 991.2 Turbo S and to be blunt, I don't have a clue how expensive the next generation with improved tech will be but I'm afraid it will be priced beyond our wildest dreams.  

Still: There are customers who are willing to pay this kind of money, the 991.2 Turbo S Cab is basically sold out in Germany for this year.

For real sports car enthusiasts however, McLaren has started to offer an alternative. While others are raising their prices and performance rises instead in homeopathic doses only, McLaren hits the nail on the head. I hope they can survive this.

I just wish Porsche would understand that they need another performance sports car alongside the 911, a mid engined 960 would have been perfect. I never understood what the R8 is doing in Audi's corner and to be blunt, I do not understand why Lamborghini and Porsche don't work together. They could profit from each other immensely. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Let's not forget Ferrari probably increasing 488 production now that they are a public company, slowly but surely...

SciFrog:

Let's not forget Ferrari probably increasing 488 production now that they are a public company, slowly but surely...

 I'm not such a big fan of the 488, can't help it but performance is very good. 

Ferrari raised the hp figure from 570 to 670 hp, a very smart move, keeping them powerful enough for the next couple of years and close to McLaren performance.

What did Porsche do? They raised the power from 530 hp to 560 hp. 30 horses more. Ridiculous. 

I know that Porsche isn't only about straight line performance but the competition is getting closer and closer and maybe even started to overtake them.

Porsche introduced the 991.1 Turbo S as a sports car benchmark but the reality is that if you talk to car journalists, most claim that the new 488 is the new sports car benchmark in it's class. In Germany, the price tag of the 488 is close to the one of the 991.2 Turbo S, so... 

The R8 makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why does Audi need such a car and what is even worse: It isn't even an Audi, it is made by the Quattro GmbH and development went hand in hand with Lamborghini. 

Of course I am happy that there is a R8 because the Huracan would have been a no go for me but seriously, the R8 doesn't make much sense, they could easily offer a similar car from Porsche and everyone would be happy.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

noone1:

No. The owner is a member of McLaren Life.
 

Here's a 570S with higher trap than a 12C:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdS3aWD1bgU

Here its traps 135mph against a Huracan which does 129mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHLAO6sE8Lo

The car is the real deal. If it was quicker than a 675LT and 650S in this recent tests, it's because those cars just weren't there that day and those cars would have been even quicker. Different day, different cars, different results.

While this could be the case (if one believed in McLaren's press strategy ) the test proves that the 570 sucks on the track and on the brake. Bad enough, if you ask me 

Well, there is no 570S Spider yet, so... ...relax. 

I am impressed with the weight of the 570S though...Porsche (and Audi) should take an example.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

noone1:

No, I live to far from the dealer. Not buying a new McLarens any time soon.

Your results are anecdotal. His Spider weighs more and slightly worse drag and maybe has worn tires or a worse road, etc. 

Good 12C/570S trap speed is 134-135mph.
Good 650S trap speed is 137+
Good 675LT trap speed is 139+

Here's his post. He has 103 octane because he was low on fuel. No difference. The car was practically new and he already sold it for a 650S. 
 

 

BTW, we are more discussing the performance above 200kph... So 135mph does not help us much 

TB993tt:

 

The 570S in the test has been tweaked for sure