Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: So where is Porsche - Page1

Jan 12, 2005 1:03:57 AM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004

So where is Porsche

Several car manufacturers are following in BMW's footsteps: offering iPod connectivity through dash-mounted FM receivers, or glove-box mounted wired connections.

Among the manufacturers currently on board are Mercedes-Benz USA, Volvo, Nissan, Alfa Romeo, Toyota's Scion division, and Ferrari.

The iPod Integration Kit for Mercedes-Benz will debut this April in the US with the newly redesigned 2006 Mercedes-Benz M-Class, and Volvo will offer two iPod connectivity options for their entire 2005 US model line. Nissan, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari will announce details of their iPod integration solutions later this year.

Additional details on model availability, features and pricing will be provided by Nissan, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari at time of availability.

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Jan 12, 2005 2:49:43 AM

silverrules: Senior; Loc: N. Calif , United States; Posts: 784, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

If they give us the IPOD connectivity, then no one will buy the CD changer, that's why.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:17:39 AM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: silverrules

Re: So where is Porsche

And the cd-changer is outrageously expensive as a retrofit, especially as it is a plug'n'play unit.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:24:09 AM

Eric (Plug Guy): Senior; Loc:; Posts: 622, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 6, 2002; Reply to: KenH

Re: So where is Porsche

Porsche never leads the pack on this stuff. Look at the piece of crap radio in the car for example.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:31:51 AM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Eric (Plug Guy)

Re: So where is Porsche

CD changer

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Jan 12, 2005 5:09:53 AM

bgarrett: Newbie; Loc: WY, USA; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Who cares. Sonically, MP3 is a highly compromised format.

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Jan 12, 2005 1:15:08 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: bgarrett

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
bgarrett said:
Who cares. Sonically, MP3 is a highly compromised format.

That depends on the encoding bit-rate (therefore size) of the file.

At 192 kbps, only "Golden Ears" can hear a difference from the original recording (CD?).

At 256 kbps, almost nobody can hear a difference.

96 kbps, at which a lot of Napster tunes were ripped, is where I can easily detect the difference, but it barely sounds distorted.

Not all MP3s are created equally.

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Jan 12, 2005 1:49:22 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: So where is Porsche

Really depends what you are playing it though.. a good home hifi will show the differences easily. In a car or ipod/headphones i would think 128, certainly 192, is just fine

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Jan 12, 2005 1:54:57 PM

bgarrett: Newbie; Loc: WY, USA; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Martin Tyler

Re: So where is Porsche

I admit to not having looked into this too closely lately. Are you saying that a higher encoding bit-rate essentially tunrs MP3 into a losssless compression technology?

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Jan 12, 2005 2:34:41 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: bgarrett

Re: So where is Porsche

Its like video encoding, depending on the kbps biterate, pixel resolution, and encoding options you can achieve near DVD quality with a much smaller size with MPEG4 compression, to the point you could barely tell any difference.
Same with MP3 compression, depending on the biterate and freq, you can acheive near CD quality that few human ears and Hi-Fi stereos would be able to tell any difference. And since we are talking about car audio where the enviromantal noise contamination is so high, a commom 192kbps and 44Hz MP3 will sound no different that a CD-audio if its encoded correctly. Not to mention that some CD's you buy at the store are horribly recorded anyway. I have MP3's that sound notioceably better than original CD's.

So for a "car" audio specially, you won't tell much difference with MP3, if they are correctly encoded that is.

And even more so with factory offered systems, you may get better sound with 320kbps MP3's on some cleanly amplified Focal, Polk, Boston Acustics, etc speakers than with some normal Cd's and the Bose system.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:09:31 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: So where is Porsche

Porsche doesn't make any of that stuff anyway, it will trickle down eventually. Hope its soon and I'm addicted to my iPod.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:13:42 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: So where is Porsche

It is simple just import your CD's into the Ipod at the same bit rate as the CD (16 bit 44k in an AES or Wave file) and you will have the exact same quality as the CD . Still buy the CD just import it into Ipod and put CD away . This way all the CD's you own will be on your Ipod and you will never have a need to take the actual CDs with you in your car again . You will have instant random access to all of the material you have imported at the exact same sound quality .

Carlos .. there is no way a compressed file will make the files sound better than the original CD unless you personally like that compressed sound ... And there is no need to compress the files ... the Ipod can be had in up to 60 gig now so there is plenty of room to import CD's at their true bit and sampling rate . The compressed files are sounding better as compression algorithms get better but they do not sound as good as the original sampling rate . This is very apparent the better the sound system is and if it is the Bose option on the 997 , get an ipod that is large enough to have all your CD on it in the exact same Bit rate as your CD's .

When you import your CD's into itunes go to the preferences and under importing choose AIFF or Wave .. Itunes defaults to a compressed format to accommodate the Apple music store which is not so good if you want to pull in your CD.s . They really should explain the compressed file default , or you have people importing their CDs into Itunes with compression and no matter how little compression there is it degrades the sound quality to some degree . As cheap as hard drive space is it is far better to keep buying CD's and import them at the exact same bit rate and not buy music online { too bad companies that sell music online do not offer the music in anything other than compressed files .. so many people are buying music online and do not know that if they would buy the CD and import it in the AIFF or Wave format it would sound the way it does on the original master . ... I guess online music companies do not want to tie up their servers ). The down fall of sound quality of an ipod has nothing to do with the ipod and everything to do with your original source material and how you get it into your ipod . random access to all of the material you have imported at the exact same sound quality .

Carlos .. there is no way a compressed file will make the files sound better than the original CD unless you personally like that compressed sound ... And there is no need to compress the files ... the Ipod can be had in up to 60 gig now so there is plenty of room to import CD's at their true bit and sampling rate . The compressed files are sounding better as compression algorithms get better but they do not sound as good as the original sampling rate . This is very apparent the better the sound system is and if it is the Bose option on the 997 , get an ipod that is large enough to have all your CD on it in the exact same Bit rate as your CD's .

When you import your CD's into itunes go to the preferences and under importing choose AIFF or Wave .. Itunes defaults to a compressed format to accommodate the Apple music store which is not so good if you want to pull in your CD.s . They really should explain the compressed file default , or you have people importing their CDs into an Itunes with compression and no matter how little compression there is it degrades the sound quality to some degree . As cheap as hard drive space is it is far better to keep buying CD's and import them at the exact same bit rate and not buy music online { too bad that companies that sell music online do not offer the music in anything other than compressed files .. so many people are buying music online and do not know that if they would buy the CD and import it in the AIFF or Wave format it would sound much better ... I guess online music companies do not want to tie up their servers ). The down fall of sound quality of in an ipod has nothing to do with the ipod and everything to do with your original source material and how you get it into your ipod .

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Jan 12, 2005 3:23:50 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:
It is simple just import your CD's into the Ipod at the same bit rate as the CD (16 bit 44k in an AES or Wave file) and you will have the exact same quality as the CD . Still buy the CD just import it into Ipod and put CD away . This way all the CD's you own will be on your Ipod and you will never have a need to take the actual CDs with you in your car again . You will have instant random access to all of the material you have imported at the exact same sound quality .

And far less music to listen to. An mp3 at 128 is about a tenth of the size of a wav file.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:57:08 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Martin Tyler

Re: So where is Porsche

And far less music to listen to. An mp3 at 128 is about a tenth of the size of a wav file

an mp3 at 128on a Bose sound system in a 997 ... UGGGGGGGGG .... nasty ...
the difference between a $99 ipod and a $300 ipod is one has 1 gig the other has 40 gigs so get the large ipod and keep your music sounding good . you will not need the CD changer option in your car ... how much does that save you .

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Jan 12, 2005 4:14:01 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Is it just me? I'm less care about the CD/DVD/MP3/iPOD on Porsche. I usually turn it off or listen to radio news/music station...

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Jan 12, 2005 4:36:45 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:
Carlos .. there is no way a compressed file will make the files sound better than the original CD unless you personally like that compressed sound

I never said that. A compressed file will obviously not sound beter than ITS origial (if enough to be differentialble or not, that is another matter). So of course there is no way... except if you did some mastering on the way to the file to improve defects found on the original or better suit your ear's style/preferences, but thats not a consequence of compression either.

What I said is that you can have compressed files that sound better than some origials you buy at the store (not the compressed file's originals), I find this to be specially true with classical music. Or that playing originals in a factory stereo can sound worse than some good compressed files that are played in a better aftermarket stereo.

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Jan 12, 2005 4:43:55 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: So where is Porsche

In a car environment, 128 is fine. With all the road noise, who can discern 128? As for ultimate compression, Apple has a loss less compression standard built into iTunes and iPod. Its quite a large file though but smaller than the "raw" CD track. Of course you can only play it throuh Apple products.

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Jan 12, 2005 5:02:58 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Texas911

Re: So where is Porsche

In a car environment, 128 is fine. With all the road noise, who can discern 128? As for ultimate compression, Apple has a loss less compression standard built into iTunes and iPod. Its quite a large file though but smaller than the "raw" CD track. Of course you can only play it through Apple products.

For me and many others 128 bit mp3 on your favorite music in a 997 with the new bose system would be a waste like listening to the dynamics of a cassette compared to a CD , but to each his own .
The acoustics in a car are some of the most ideal acoustics you can have . I just wanted to give you folks some info so you would have the best sound quality possible . For me and many others the music experience in the car is very important . I see most people order the improved Bose option on their new 997's so it must be important to them . And by the way there is no such thing as loss less compression that is something Apple made up to make you think that the online Apple music store downloads sound as good as the CD they came from and they do not ... close but not the same .

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Jan 12, 2005 5:06:06 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:
the difference between a $99 ipod and a $300 ipod is one has 1 gig the other has 40 gigs so get the large ipod and keep your music sounding good . you will not need the CD changer option in your car ... how much does that save you .

I dont care about the money - a 40Gb ipod with uncompressed music is only about 60-80 CDs worth instead of a few hundred compressed. I know both are far more than any car CD changer will handle, but why limit yourself when you wont notice the difference 99% of the time.

I wouldnt dream of using compressed music at home, but in a car i dont think i would notice.

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Jan 12, 2005 5:08:19 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:And by the way there is no such thing as loss less compression that is something Apple made up to make you think that the online Apple music store downloads sound as good as the CD they came from and they do not ... close but not the same .

I have no idea what Apple say or provide, but there is such a thing as lossless compression.

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Jan 12, 2005 5:29:37 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Martin Tyler

Re: So where is Porsche

I dont care about the money - a 40Gb ipod with uncompressed music is only about 60-80 CDs worth instead of a few hundred compressed. I know both are far more than any car CD changer will handle, but why limit yourself when you wont notice the difference 99% of the time.

80 Cd's is a lot of CD's and you can get Ipods that go up to 60 gigs for just a little more and soon that will go up .

I wouldn't dream of using compressed music at home,

the acoustics in your car are better than the acoustics in most peoples homes unless the room in the home has had major acoustic room treatment and design . So why do you think your home is more deserving of uncompressed files .

but in a car i dont think i would notice.

burn a CD of the same song on a CD one with the compression and one with the full Wave or Aiff format and take it out to your car and listen to the difference ... you will hear a difference especially on music that was well recorded and more acoustic in nature .

I work in recording studios everyday and we spend fortunes on technology that improves the listening experience , only to watch people compress the stuff lose the dynamics and miss out . Again most people do not A B the two so they do not know what they are missing but if you make a CD of both and compare you will hear the difference .

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Jan 12, 2005 5:49:08 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Could you explain why a car is better acoustically? i have heard this before.

However, my home has better equipment, no road noise, i listen to stuff without any distractions.. for me, in the car i wouldnt notice. Yes, i may notice if i did a test as that is what i would be concentrating on, but the point is a high bitrate compressed format is fine for me in the car.

I am with you on what you say about people ruining the experience.. i am very into home hifi/AV stuff and as i said, wouldnt dream of listening to compressed stuff at home.

There are lossless formats, sounds like you know what you are talking about so you are probably using a different meaning for lossless. These formats are digitally lossless, you could uncompress them and get back an exact copy - just the same as if you unzip a file on a computer your files are the same as they started. Maybe what you are getting at is lossless as far as the final audio presentation is concerned - in which case I agree with you, as even these 'lossless' formats can introduce jitter to the audio stream, so even those the bits are correct, the timing isnt.

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Jan 12, 2005 5:55:27 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:
the acoustics in your car are better than the acoustics in most peoples homes unless the room in the home has had major acoustic room treatment and design . So why do you think your home is more deserving of uncompressed files.

Ocean, its because you don't "drive" your home on the streets in city traffic or at highway speeds. It "may" sound better than some home systems when the car is parked in a quiet garage with the engine off, but not when you are driving with all the envirometal noise that fills the cabin from the traffic around you, your engine, wind noise, etc. which is when the stereo is gonna be used. Thats what he reffers to car being less deservant vs home since in the car while driving you will loose many of the details that would differentiate compressed vs original. I think in the bottom, we are all actually saying the same thing in this thread. So Porsche! get to it!

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Jan 12, 2005 6:34:40 PM

Cueto: Newbie; Loc: Puerto Rico; Posts: 25, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

There IS lossless compression. Or what do you think Zip, rar, lazh and stuffit are? Lossless???

On the video and audio world u CAN have lossless compression , and it is called RLE (Run Length Encoding)

Frank

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Jan 12, 2005 6:39:37 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Cueto

Re: So where is Porsche

As Martin said no lossless compression as far as the final audio presentation is concerned

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Jan 12, 2005 8:50:37 PM

Martin Tyler: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

Quote:
OCEAN said:
As Martin said no lossless compression as far as the final audio presentation is concerned

Right, at least I understand where you are coming from now - and I agree

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Jan 12, 2005 11:07:29 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Martin Tyler

Re: So where is Porsche

#997-044-900-78 CDC-4 6changer $715.84

where does that go and does it take up much space ....

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Jan 12, 2005 11:26:40 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: So where is Porsche

It goes in the trunk, "inside" the plastic housing that also houses the NAV. There are "doors" built in to acces them.
So doesnt't take up trunk space.

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Jan 12, 2005 11:49:02 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: So where is Porsche

Thanks Carlos ... he go here http://stream.apple.akadns.net/ go to 01:31:10

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Jan 13, 2005 9:41:48 AM

Joost: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Dordrecht , Netherlands; Posts: 8054, Gallery; Registered on: May 3, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: So where is Porsche

I've been thinking lately;
* A lot of luxury cars use cards instead of keys nowadays to start eh?
*A lot of people have an iPod in their car eh?

It should not be to hard to combine those two, so that when you put your card in your car to start it, it is also a usb mp3 player, so that you always have your own music collection with you when you drive...
Might that be an idea? Trademark etc to me

-Joost-

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