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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
I guess this post is a tweak at PCNA , which pretty much voids the warranty on any Porsche that is tracked , though they sell their cars, esp the GT3 and GT2 , as track cars that you can drive to work ( or visa versa ).
I believe the Corvette owners orientation video even talks about/ encourages tracking the car as the ultimate way to get the full potential out of the car .
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
of course not, what do you think it is - a Porsche?
Jan 8, 2005 10:08:15 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
Good for them, all the other makers should learn from them. Specially Mitsubishi, who is known to go through the inscribed list at track events to take down the names of mitsu participants and void their warranties
But I wonder if they will actually give that in writing or is it just a gentlemans agreement, cause its generally accepted here that unless you do something stupid or claim something that is not fair (a prematurely burnt clucth from standing starts for example), tracking your Porsche on weekend events here will not void your warranty either.
Jan 8, 2005 10:14:13 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
of course not, what do you think it is - a Porsche?
Ben, are you aware of any maker that states specifically in the warraty that it covers track events?
I wonder why you just had to pick specifically Porsche, while forgetting to mention all the others as well like Ferrari, Lambo, BMW, etc.
Jan 8, 2005 2:33:18 PM
- Grant
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
Good for them, all the other makers should learn from them. Specially Mitsubishi, who is known to go through the inscribed list at track events to take down the names of mitsu participants and void their warranties
But I wonder if they will actually give that in writing or is it just a gentlemans agreement, cause its generally accepted here that unless you do something stupid or claim something that is not fair (a prematurely burnt clucth from standing starts for example), tracking your Porsche on weekend events here will not void your warranty either.
Carlos, you are correct. Mitsubishi is the absolute worst at this. In the US they give a 10 year warranty, but they have terrible service and will void your warranty for any reason they choose. Even a tiny mod that has no effect on the reason for the problem. What good is a 10-year warranty under those circumstances. Porsche has an official policy that tracking your car will void your warranty. I understand why (especially as an American attorney). However, very few dealers will refuse your warranty claim, even if they know that you've been at the track.
But, it is totally up to the discretion of the particular dealer and they can void your warranty in the national computer if they want - then you're screwed.
I think it will be interesting to see if the Corvette Z06 manual has no warranty disclaimer for tracking. Silence on the issue would be the most one could wish for. No way will any car maker say in the warranty "Go ahead and beat the sh*t out of the car at the track or dragstrip and we'll still fix it for free". But, maybe it won't say what Porsche says "Any use of this car on the track that causes a problem will not be covered by the warranty" or something close to that. We'll have to see.
I know that the Corvette dealers near here are very generous with the current Z06 and warranty claims. More generous than the P-car dealers have been.
Corvette is trying to capitalize on its recent racing success and they don't want to erode it by having poor customer publicity by disclaiming the warranty.
Porshe has already established its racing legend (for those customers who can remember or even care), so they feel it can wistand a bit more negative publicity.
Mitsubishi has really blown theirs. That's one reason they're virtually bankrupt
Despite all of my posts about the Z06, I am really not going to buy one (at least no time soon). I love the driving feel of the 911 too much. But, I think Porsche should recognize that the competition is not kidding around. The Z06 will steal some 997 sales and it deserves to...
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Dave Hill, Corvette chief engineer and media spokeperson, and who uses standard inscrutable corporate auto executive doublespeak as well as any of them, has stated ( and I'm sure this was cleared by higher ups and legal people at GM ) regarding tracking the Corvette C6 Z06 :
"trips to the track would not void the warranty on the C6 Z06 as it does on some ( other brand sports ) cars".
Since the 911 Turbo is their stated performance bogee , I think we know which brand he refers to.
"trips to the track would not void the warranty on the C6 Z06 as it does on some ( other brand sports ) cars".
Since the 911 Turbo is their stated performance bogee , I think we know which brand he refers to.
Jan 8, 2005 4:54:23 PM
- ben, lj
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
of course not, what do you think it is - a Porsche?
Ben, are you aware of any maker that states specifically in the warraty that it covers track events?
I wonder why you just had to pick specifically Porsche, while forgetting to mention all the others as well like Ferrari, Lambo, BMW, etc.
Ferrari covers damage occuring on track.
Jan 8, 2005 7:02:32 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Grant said:
I think it will be interesting to see if the Corvette Z06 manual has no warranty disclaimer for tracking. Silence on the issue would be the most one could wish for. No way will any car maker say in the warranty "Go ahead and beat the sh*t out of the car at the track or dragstrip and we'll still fix it for free". But, maybe it won't say what Porsche says "Any use of this car on the track that causes a problem will not be covered by the warranty" or something close to that. We'll have to see.
I agree, silence would already be a step foward and may set an example others may have to follow to compete.
Quote:
But, I think Porsche should recognize that the competition is not kidding around. The Z06 will steal some 997 sales and it deserves to...
I'm very glad Chevy is making the Z06 such a competitve product and hope more will come, competition is great and better for all of us. The harder the competition is for the 911, the better 911 buyers will be off in the long run. The worst thing that could happen is if there is nothing to challenge them and the fall asleep or get too full of it.
Jan 8, 2005 7:03:17 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jan 9, 2005 1:59:07 AM
- palenimbus
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
GM the corporation totally stinks, if it wasn't for its finance services it would be bankrupt; it virtually makes no money by selling cars. Porsche on the other hand, profits by selling cars, so they can't just whore them off like Corvettes.
GM is a huge company, if it loses money selling the C6 or the Z06, management probably wouldn't care. In fact, they don't mind losing money on much of their model lineup because as long as they can pump through volume they can continue to make money on the financing side. Toyota for one is taking advantage of this fact. The 911 on the other hand is the breadwinner for Porsche, so much of the policy differences between the two companies are understandable.
GM is a huge company, if it loses money selling the C6 or the Z06, management probably wouldn't care. In fact, they don't mind losing money on much of their model lineup because as long as they can pump through volume they can continue to make money on the financing side. Toyota for one is taking advantage of this fact. The 911 on the other hand is the breadwinner for Porsche, so much of the policy differences between the two companies are understandable.
Jan 9, 2005 5:26:38 AM
- Grant
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
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Danny G said:The 911 on the other hand is the breadwinner for Porsche, so much of the policy differences between the two companies are understandable.
I think the latest sales results indicate that the Cayenne is the breadwinner, not the 911...
Jan 9, 2005 6:36:04 PM
- MKW
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Danny G said:
GM the corporation totally stinks, if it wasn't for its finance services it would be bankrupt; it virtually makes no money by selling cars. Porsche on the other hand, profits by selling cars, so they can't just whore them off like Corvettes.
Guess you don't follow financial side of the auto industry much . Porsche stock value has been droppping because it's apparent to analysts ( and confirmed by PAG CFO ) that much of their profit is from currency hedging more than it's Euro competitors , which analysts agreed they won't be able to repeat/sustain beyond 2007.
So in that sense, they are more like GM per your original statement- making money via "smoke and mirrors" .
Here's a sample from wintonsworld.com, Dec 15 , 2004 :
quote
" Porsche Profits, Helped By Nifty Dollar Provisions, Likely To Dive
Problem? What Problem, says Porsche
It's probably inevitable that when some investors think about Porsche, they don't see a wonderful, state-of-the-art driving machine, but only care that it makes fabulous amounts of money.
Even so, when the Financial Times of London's Lex column asks "Is Porsche a luxury carmaker or a currency hedge fund", it is a jolt to the system. In fact, Lex was pointing out the strange fact that because of Porsche's canny use of currency hedges against the dollar's precipitate decline, up to 75 per cent of its current profits are said to be made from these financial instruments.
Investors are therefore worrying what happens when these hedges run their course, which is believed to be in 2007. Some reckon that foreign exchange hedging profits only account for about 30 per cent of profits, although nobody outside of the company really knows because of Porsche's opaque financial accounts.
"Its lack of disclosure would make even the most secretive hedge fund proud," said Lex.
Goldman Sachs is impressed by what it calls Porsche's strong sales growth, rich model mix and strong operating cash flow, but it is worried.
Serious Concerns
"However, we continue to have serious concerns about the proportion of earnings and cash flow delivered by currency options. We believe realistic concerns about the quality of earnings and the company's profit levels post 2007 will continue to weigh on (the company)," Goldman Sachs said.
Goldman Sachs admitted that it had overestimated the problem in the past.
"We believe hedge profits in 2003/2004 were at least 600 million euros, or 55 per cent of reported pre-tax profits. This is lower than our previous estimate of 800 million euros. But in our view Porsche's profit resilience is largely due to its foresight and complex hedging programme. We continue to believe that, if current exchange rates prevail, Porsche will see earnings tumble in due course," Goldman Sachs said. "
unquote
Also, in the Corvette business case, since they are a small part of the corporation, they must be profitable in each and every model to justify a stand alone factory in Kentucky - that's why the car was almost killed in 1992 and the reason for building the XLR at the same line now . . Everything is scrutinized yearly - if a color attracts less that 5%, for instance , it's dropped , like white for the prev Z06. Read the book " All Corvettes Are Red ", and you will see how this car somehow survived 13 years ago despite the suits higher up's best attempts to get rid of it.
One final comment, Danny- the day ( inevitably ) when Toyota buys control of Porsche AG from the
Porsche and Piech family heirs, will be the best day for PAG, as they will have the financial and human resources to really set their talented people free, if they are still with them by then . They have lost many young engineers to other companies since they haven't had in house racing program for 6-7 years - a " generation" for the brightest engineers who don't want to be left behind since technology moves so fast in this business.
Jan 10, 2005 12:20:19 AM
- palenimbus
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Yes, I know that currency hedges are contributing significantly to Porsche's bottom line. But the GM finance operations I was referring to involve borrowing at short-term interest rates to lend to consumers at long-term interest rates to finance purchases of GM cars. This is much more unhealthy than what Porsche is doing. When those currency hedges expire, Porsche still has one of the highest profit-per-vehicle ratios in the industry. On the other hand, if interest rates rise, GM will lose its main profit source.
As for Toyota "inevitably" buying Porsche... The German government has a law whereby they can veto any foreign attempt to acquire Volkswagen. Perhaps, they would do the same with Porsche? Considering it is the pride of the German auto industry.
As for Toyota "inevitably" buying Porsche... The German government has a law whereby they can veto any foreign attempt to acquire Volkswagen. Perhaps, they would do the same with Porsche? Considering it is the pride of the German auto industry.
Jan 10, 2005 1:42:35 AM
- ben, lj
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
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Danny G said:
But the GM finance operations I was referring to involve borrowing at short-term interest rates to lend to consumers at long-term interest rates to finance purchases of GM cars.
Huh? You mean they're capturing a spread (er: profit) on that financing? Or are you considering the 5 year loans as "long-term" (which it isn't)?
Jan 10, 2005 5:29:33 AM
- vtrader
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
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Danny G said:
... This is much more unhealthy than what Porsche is doing. When those currency hedges expire, Porsche still has one of the highest profit-per-vehicle ratios in the industry...
That may be true of their cars sold in Germany but with almost half of them sold in the US, there is no profit at all at the current exchange rates. In fact, they probably lost money on every US sale at the current exchange rates. The currency hedging makes up for the lose.
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
This claim is worth...NOTHING. Occasional weekend competition at the race track? Sounds like non-professional racing/driver ed events to me. Especially Driver ed events or just a few rounds on the track for fun don't necessarily void the warranty on a Porsche car. The warranty problem starts when people begin to modify their cars, using different brake system liquids/lines, semi-slicks or even slicks and roll cages. I never heard that Porsche voided the warranty because of a few rounds on the track for fun.
Meaning: original car without mods and really only a few rounds, not sticking a number to the door and driving the hell out of the car for 10 rounds.
Jan 10, 2005 9:26:01 AM
- palenimbus
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
Danny G said:
But the GM finance operations I was referring to involve borrowing at short-term interest rates to lend to consumers at long-term interest rates to finance purchases of GM cars.
Huh? You mean they're capturing a spread (er: profit) on that financing? Or are you considering the 5 year loans as "long-term" (which it isn't)?
Yes, they profit by the spread. Ok, I should've said "longer"-term but consider that the APR for Traditional Retail Financing is 4.90% and the 30-year Treasury note is approx. 4.80% so the spread is still significant. Also, I forgot to mention that GM's mortgage business is a huge contribution to profits. Actually, almost all of GM's 4Q 2004 profit came from its mortgage business.
Jan 10, 2005 10:42:28 AM
- SoCalHoosier
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
This claim is worth...NOTHING. Occasional weekend competition at the race track? Sounds like non-professional racing/driver ed events to me. Especially Driver ed events or just a few rounds on the track for fun don't necessarily void the warranty on a Porsche car. The warranty problem starts when people begin to modify their cars, using different brake system liquids/lines, semi-slicks or even slicks and roll cages. I never heard that Porsche voided the warranty because of a few rounds on the track for fun.
Meaning: original car without mods and really only a few rounds, not sticking a number to the door and driving the hell out of the car for 10 rounds.
There are a LOT of people who run special brake fluid, half cages, and semi-slicks just for DEs. I consider all that stuff very minor, most track people do. This stuff is seen on cars that just go to "fun" days as long as they go pretty regularly to just fun days. Many people carry timing equipment for DEs so I don't see why time trials wouldn't be covered if DEs were. Wheel to wheel action might be a little much for any car maker to cover under warrantee, but I think DEs should be covered. I'm not quite sure what you mean by drive the hell out of the car. Certainly you should never abuse a car you own on the track. However, I think the point of being on a track at all is the drive at the limit.
Jan 10, 2005 3:42:01 PM
- ben, lj
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Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Danny G said:Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
Danny G said:
But the GM finance operations I was referring to involve borrowing at short-term interest rates to lend to consumers at long-term interest rates to finance purchases of GM cars.
Huh? You mean they're capturing a spread (er: profit) on that financing? Or are you considering the 5 year loans as "long-term" (which it isn't)?
Yes, they profit by the spread. Ok, I should've said "longer"-term but consider that the APR for Traditional Retail Financing is 4.90% and the 30-year Treasury note is approx. 4.80% so the spread is still significant.
what's the relevance of the 30 to this conversation? wouldn't the 5 be more appropriate? incidentally, do you know the average time a car loan through GM is held before either payoff or trade in on another car?
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
This claim is worth...NOTHING. Occasional weekend competition at the race track? Sounds like non-professional racing/driver ed events to me. Especially Driver ed events or just a few rounds on the track for fun don't necessarily void the warranty on a Porsche car. The warranty problem starts when people begin to modify their cars, using different brake system liquids/lines, semi-slicks or even slicks and roll cages. I never heard that Porsche voided the warranty because of a few rounds on the track for fun.
Meaning: original car without mods and really only a few rounds, not sticking a number to the door and driving the hell out of the car for 10 rounds.
In the Porsche manual it specifically states that a problem the occurs at the racetrack is not protected by the warranty. It could be driving slowly for 1 lap as far as the legal interpretation goes. Just because some dealers are much more lenient than others is not very comforting. If the Corvette manual states nothing about track use, then the warranty will be in effect. That's a big difference as far as I'm concerned. Will have to wait to read a copy of the Z06's manual...
Re: Tracking New Z06 won't void its warranty
Quote:
Yargk said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Grant said:
Dave Hill, head of Corvette team has said that occasional weekend competition at the racetrack will not void the warranty (most recent Autoweek). Makes the huge performance and modest price sound even more enticing
This claim is worth...NOTHING. Occasional weekend competition at the race track? Sounds like non-professional racing/driver ed events to me. Especially Driver ed events or just a few rounds on the track for fun don't necessarily void the warranty on a Porsche car. The warranty problem starts when people begin to modify their cars, using different brake system liquids/lines, semi-slicks or even slicks and roll cages. I never heard that Porsche voided the warranty because of a few rounds on the track for fun.
Meaning: original car without mods and really only a few rounds, not sticking a number to the door and driving the hell out of the car for 10 rounds.
There are a LOT of people who run special brake fluid, half cages, and semi-slicks just for DEs. I consider all that stuff very minor, most track people do. This stuff is seen on cars that just go to "fun" days as long as they go pretty regularly to just fun days. Many people carry timing equipment for DEs so I don't see why time trials wouldn't be covered if DEs were. Wheel to wheel action might be a little much for any car maker to cover under warrantee, but I think DEs should be covered. I'm not quite sure what you mean by drive the hell out of the car. Certainly you should never abuse a car you own on the track. However, I think the point of being on a track at all is the drive at the limit.
yeah, a friend was denied master cylinder warranty coverage based solely on having the blue brake fluid! The dealer claimed he must be tracking the car! Oddly enough, it's a pretty decent sized dealer and they sponsor much of the PCA drivers ed and time trial events. dunno about anyone else, but knowing a dealership who denies claims for the smallest "appearance" of potential track use, has one or more reps at the events keeps me from wanting to participate.
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