Crown

Herbaliser:

So you are basically saying that the Cayenne is more comfortable and handles just as well as the Panamera? That a Cayenne Turbo can keep up with a Panamera Turbo with a big boot on a canyon road? I don't think so. Comparing the Cayenne's chassis dynamic to that of a modern sports sedan (SWs) is a stretch. It's like saying that 300kg don't matter. For the last few years I've never thought of taking the Cayenne over the RS6 or the M5 for a long trip.

As for Europeans vs. the rest of the world, If we have to generalize I'd say that Europeans have a bit more sophisticated taste for cars. Most of the cars we discuss on this board are products of this culture. 

Europeans have much better taste in clothing that's for sure, as for cars well that's up for debate 

On our road tour, we had a couple Cayenne Turbo S as support vehicles, yes they got left behind by the 911s and 918s, but they aren't that far behind us. Porsche doesn't have a wagon yet and their Panamera has tiny trunk and it won't take nearly as much stuff as in the Cayenne. Nor any other wagons for that matters. Good enough compromises.

For a 1 car household, a sports wagon is a perfect compromise, they will not be that far behind a sports car, they won't hold as much stuff as in a SUV, but good enough. 

For a 2 car household, one can have a sports car and then pair it with a SUV. It used to be a sports car and then a wagon, but as I said, going one size up to a SUV is not that much of a compromise anymore in driving dynamics but gains a bit more in utility.

All cars are compromises, it just depends on which part one is willing to give up.

Whoopsy:

Europeans have much better taste in clothing that's for sure, as for cars well that's up for debate 

Well, Americans are champions when it comes to taste in cars 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Milanno:

Whoopsy:

Europeans have much better taste in clothing that's for sure, as for cars well that's up for debate 

Well, Americans are champions when it comes to taste in cars 

Hey, we brought you the Aztek! So much better looking than any Estate/Wagon produced in Europe. 

In US in particular, SUV basically replaced the minivans, similar function without the stigma for more fashion oriented housewives.

Just look at the closest shopping mall parking lot with majority of cars being SUVs, the modern soccer mom minivans, from cheap Korean to pricey G-Wagens and Range Rovers.

Their husbands who would be too embarrassed to drive a minivan, don't mind being seen behind the wheel of these monsters.

I'd much rather drive a German station wagon than an SUV if they imported them here.  Or even a Focus RS if not much room is needed...

I like the Panamera, but it is far too expensive for me (especially when factoring in the steep depreciation).  I have driven one on the track (last version) and it was surprisingly fun and nimble compared to a Cayenne.  Almost no understeer...

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

absent:

In US in particular, SUV basically replaced the minivans, similar function without the stigma for more fashion oriented housewives.

Just look at the closest shopping mall parking lot with majority of cars being SUVs, the modern soccer mom minivans, from cheap Korean to pricey G-Wagens and Range Rovers.

Their husbands who would be too embarrassed to drive a minivan, don't mind being seen behind the wheel of these monsters.

Great points! With SUV, ordinary driver gets best bang for buck 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Grant:

I'd much rather drive a German station wagon than an SUV if they imported them here.  Or even a Focus RS if not much room is needed...

I like the Panamera, but it is far too expensive for me (especially when factoring in the steep depreciation).  I have driven one on the track (last version) and it was surprisingly fun and nimble compared to a Cayenne.  Almost no understeer...

I hesitate to mention it, because, well, it's not German, but Volvo is bringing their V90 to the US late next year. First, of course, they will bring the V90 Cross Country (early 2017), which is the V90 with a lift kit and some cosmetics to make it look more rugged and manly (well, maybe it's not entirely cosmetic, I'm not 100% certain) but the regular, "as god intended," V90 is supposed to follow it.

However, if it must be a German car, Mercedes is apparently bringing the new E400 over next year as well.

I have my eye on Volvo offerings too (they have the best Euro Delivery deal).  I would like something like a Polestar version of the next V40 small wagon, but they are going to be FWD-biased (even though AWD) and Automatic only which is a shame.  I wish more sporty wagons would adopt something similar to the Focus RS's AWD system (and manual gearbox).  The only other truly sporting AWD setup in a small sedan was the now defunct Mits Evo.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I have a Cayenne GTS and RS6 avant, and I am not saying GTS is a bad car, but compared with driving feel itself, I must say RS6 is in a complete different segment than the GTS.  GTS' high seating position is nice, but that's all I can say about the car, and when the time comes next year, I will sell that car with a heart beat....  no question about that....  its a complete waste of money to get an SUV GTS.... totally pointless.  I don't need a car with high centre gravity with more horse power and weights 2.5tones and call it GTS....  RS6 carries more load than Cayenne that's for sure!!  and driving position is lower (better), and feels like driving!!  Cayenne is just a tool to get you A to B.  If you are thinking that's all u need, then you wouldn't even be on this forum!!  Avant is a much better product than SUV for me, because I care (and I think most of the people on this forum) about driving feel.  take Macan VS A6 avant, which has similar weight, and you will find despite Macan is as close as a regular road car, its still has its inevitable characteristic of high centre gravity which diluted the driving dynamic feel, that's the univeral law of physics which can not be defy!  

Most of the people loves SUV, and I understand, for wife maybe!  but come on!!!  us on this forum are not regular people! we love cars, that's why Porsche feels the need to develop a segment for those who want a nice daily with 5 seats with lots of trunk spaces still enjoys driving dynamics.  This car isn't for any regular people, and they would obviously think wagon will be pointless, but that's irrevelent, cause they don't care, we care!!    who cares if SUV has 5more liter of trunk space..... get a truck if u want large loading bed......   

Originally I thought GTS with Porsch's badge on it should be different than any other SUV out there, and that's why I brought it!!   after this GTS, that terminated my life time relation with SUVs.  maybe when I am 65, I will think differently, I don't know, but I hope not........

I always wanted a Cayenne with the GTS chassis and sound but a Turbo S engine and power. 

I loved my Cayenne GTS (958.1) with V8 (wouldn't even think about getting the new one with V6 Biturbo) but the engine lacked at least 100 hp, no kidding.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

That's another reason there are more wagon sales in Europe vs. N.A. Engines. I had an e500 wagon with a V8 but other than a very limited number of AMG wagons you can't get anything other than the little base engines in the very few wagons that are available. No M5 wagon, no RS6 wagon etc...

I'm not going to buy an e-class wagon with a V6. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Still remember seeing a Swiss family of 5 packed into an E63 wagon on the Autobahn.  I couldn't stay with them in my GT4...

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

Still remember seeing a Swiss family of 5 packed into an E63 wagon on the Autobahn.  I couldn't stay with them in my GT4...

Was the E63 also white?  

fritz

fritz:

Grant:

Still remember seeing a Swiss family of 5 packed into an E63 wagon on the Autobahn.  I couldn't stay with them in my GT4...

Was the E63 also white?  

Nope, Black

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

fritz:

Grant:

Still remember seeing a Swiss family of 5 packed into an E63 wagon on the Autobahn.  I couldn't stay with them in my GT4...

Was the E63 also white?  

Nope, Black

Imagine that car being white..

I  have travelled the astonishingly bumpy Bulgarian roads for the last three weeks, amongst that in a Mercedes ML and BMW X5. Yes, those modern SUVs handle remarkably well and are a showcase for engineering prowess. Nonetheless you need either a sacrifice to be made in terms of comfort or tremendous technological efforts (air suspension, active swaybars) to make these things handle really well. In isolation, these things are great, compare them to an A6/S6/RS6 or 5-series and I doubt you see SUVs as dynamically superior. I am not talking about the average customer but about the enthusiast here!

I also joined a Jaguar driving event recently to try out the various models, including the new F-Pace. As attractive as it stylistically is, I found the car to be quite stiff yet still not sporty enough for my taste. I was far more amazed by the XF which had a calm yet lightfooted handling.

Ferdie:

Grant:

fritz:

Grant:

Still remember seeing a Swiss family of 5 packed into an E63 wagon on the Autobahn.  I couldn't stay with them in my GT4...

Was the E63 also white?  

Nope, Black

Imagine that car being white..

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

Back on topic please...

Anyone going to Paris Show for debut of Panamera?

Wonderbar:

Back on topic please...

Yes sir

They just convinced me to not buy the Panamera 4 Hybrid and wait for the Panamera Turbo S PHEV, which I already placed an order with my dealer today when I go pick up my long awaited Cayenne Turbo S.

Boy what a SUV, night and day better than the SVR, but it has to be when it cost 100k more

Cayenne Turbo S really has no equal right now in the market place, it stands on it's own pedestal. 

Whoopsy:

Wonderbar:

Back on topic please...

 

Yes sir

They just convinced me to not buy the Panamera 4 Hybrid and wait for the Panamera Turbo S PHEV, which I already placed an order with my dealer today when I go pick up my long awaited Cayenne Turbo S.

Boy what a SUV, night and day better than the SVR, but it has to be when it cost 100k more

Cayenne Turbo S really has no equal right now in the market place, it stands on it's own pedestal. 

Do you have more specifics about the Panamera Turbo S release date?

Ziggy:

Whoopsy:

Wonderbar:

Back on topic please...

 

Yes sir

They just convinced me to not buy the Panamera 4 Hybrid and wait for the Panamera Turbo S PHEV, which I already placed an order with my dealer today when I go pick up my long awaited Cayenne Turbo S.

Boy what a SUV, night and day better than the SVR, but it has to be when it cost 100k more

Cayenne Turbo S really has no equal right now in the market place, it stands on it's own pedestal. 

Do you have more specifics about the Panamera Turbo S release date?

I was told it will be another year or so away.

I just drove my brand new Cayenne Turbo S round trip to Whistler, gonna write up in another thread but boy, we gonna have a treat when the Panamera Turbo S PHEV shows up.

What is  PHEV ? 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

What is  PHEV ? 

Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

Yup, if they keep the Turbo engine from the Panamera Turbo, rated at 550HP, add in the electric motor from the Panamera 4 Hybrid which is rated at 136HP, the Panamera Turbo S will be close to 700HP, 686HP to be exact, a real monster!

--

The Panamera 4 E-Hybrid has a DIN curb weight of 2170 kg vs 1870 kg for the standard S which has the same V6 engine. That's 300 kg for the hybrid system. The Turbo is 2 tons already, so the Turbo S Hybrid will be 2.3 t. That's a bit more than the current generation Cayenne Turbo S (2235 kg).

Am I the only one who is not fond of the idea of driving a 2.3 t sedan, no matter how much horsepower it has?

Herbaliser:

The Panamera 4 E-Hybrid has a DIN curb weight of 2170 kg vs 1870 kg for the standard S which has the same V6 engine. That's 300 kg for the hybrid system. The Turbo is 2 tons already, so the Turbo S Hybrid will be 2.3 t. That's a bit more than the current generation Cayenne Turbo S (2235 kg).

Am I the only one who is not fond of the idea of driving a 2.3 t sedan, no matter how much horsepower it has?

Sedan or SUV. Not fond of either if they weight 2.3 tons.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

Don't think the 918 had any problem carrying extra weight over the P1 or the LaFerrari.

People paid too much attention to spec sheets, which are sometimes out of touch with real life. Which is what happened when the specs for the 3 hypercars first came out, people wrote off the 918 too quickly and all are eating their foot and shoe and underwear.

Still eating them to this day.

--

Whoopsy:

Don't think the 918 had any problem carrying extra weight over the P1 or the LaFerrari.

People paid too much attention to spec sheets, which are sometimes out of touch with real life. Which is what happened when the specs for the 3 hypercars first came out, people wrote off the 918 too quickly and all are eating their foot and shoe and underwear.

Still eating them to this day.

The 918 has proved that fantastic track times are achievable even with heavier car. But it didn't prove that a 1700 kg car can feel like a 1400 kg car. I guess it's a matter of sensitivity and priorities.

Whoopsy:

Yup, if they keep the Turbo engine from the Panamera Turbo, rated at 550HP, add in the electric motor from the Panamera 4 Hybrid which is rated at 136HP, the Panamera Turbo S will be close to 700HP, 686HP to be exact, a real monster!

--

For how long does it stay as a monster before it tames down to (550hp) your previous PTS power output

BiTurbo:

Whoopsy:

Yup, if they keep the Turbo engine from the Panamera Turbo, rated at 550HP, add in the electric motor from the Panamera 4 Hybrid which is rated at 136HP, the Panamera Turbo S will be close to 700HP, 686HP to be exact, a real monster!

--

For how long does it stay as a monster before it tames down to (550hp) your previous PTS power output

 

Using the 918 as the gauge, just about never. it's stupidly hard to used up all of 918's electric energy as it recharges back up so fast.

And I am dead serious, Not even Matthias Hoffsummer can drain it flying around Paul Ricard, and he is the one Porsche employee who logged the most miles on a 918.

With the current software algorithms, if Mark Lieb were to do another Ring attempt, he won't run out juice ever, even in Hot Lap mode. 

It's pity that the Panamera Turbo S will be a hybrid. A showcase for a bridging technology that won't be around for long. The Panamera has never got the engine it deserved. The 4.8 V8 TT was nothing special both in terms of power and character, the new 4.0 won't give us more than 550 hp which is so 2000's. As much as I praise the chassis engineers at Porsche, the engine guys have been a huge disappointment for the last decade or so.