Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: The new C6 and Z06 - Page1

Jan 4, 2005 12:26:11 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

The new C6 and Z06

The numbers on these cars are incredible. Price, performance, weight and racing heritage. Both Road and Track and Motor Trend have terrific articles regarding how good these cars are.

For an example in R&T, the C6 was voted the Best Car of 2005 besting the Ford GT, the 997S and others. Here is the final paragraph of what R&T had to say:

"There's no question that the Corvette is a world-class performance sports car. Sure, there are other sport cars in the world that MAY offer better track numbers, yet they typically cost tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands more. At a starting MSRP of $43,445, it is the best sports car for the money. Period."

The Z06 weighing 3150 pds with 500 hp will do 0-60 in 3.7 sec. reach a 100 in less than 7 sec and do a 1/4 mile in the mid 11's. This car will price out at around $75,000 if that. Many feel it will be in the mid 60's.

My question is aside from mass production (no differnt than Porsche) why do we snub at our nose at these car? I have not driven one lately but they certainly have numbers to back them up.

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Jan 4, 2005 1:02:21 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: The new C6 and Z06

yeah, i heard the 75k figure also, thats gonna kill it.

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Jan 4, 2005 1:12:58 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
nberry said:My question is aside from mass production (no differnt than Porsche) why do we snub at our nose at these car?

Serious lack of refinement, from what i've read, including poor build quality, impossibly hard suspensions, plastic bodyparts, leafsprings

, etc..
And who's we? I see people around here welcoming the Z06

Quote:
the C6 was voted the Best Car of 2005 besting the Ford GT, the 997S and others

Only because it's cheap.

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Jan 4, 2005 2:39:21 AM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: brunner

Re: The new C6 and Z06

I cant remember where I heard it but the corvettes are terrible quality compared to most 75K+ euro cars. Nothing like a loud squeaky sun roof

I would much prefer a kit car over a vette (better quality

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Jan 4, 2005 2:47:40 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
I cant remember where I heard it but the corvettes are terrible quality compared to most 75K+ euro cars. Nothing like a loud squeaky sun roof

I would much prefer a kit car over a vette (better quality

watch it ryan, the american cars are rising to the top of JD Powers and other reliability and quality measuring sticks at the same time the germans (like porsche largely because of their cayenne! - and likely 8 model years of RMS issues) are plummeting.

fwiw though, these Z06 #s (very similar to the F430s) are a crock of crap. i'm just not buying that a vastly superior V10 in the CGT and V12 in the Enzo with the same weight and much better and more expensive technology and materials are on par with the Z06 and the F430. i think most of us know better. ferrari's test was a joke (downhill and "calculated") and the Z06s haven't even been independently tested. interestingly enough, at the ferrari test track with ferrari test drivers, the 430 is like 3 seconds slower than the enzo and only on par with the stradale.

all that said, the Z06 is a rip roaring bargain that it's even compared to such cars while being a tiny fraction of the cost.

fwiw, GM is the largest automobile advertiser in C&D and R&T and i can't help but wonder sometimes if that has any effect on the numbers and conclusions contained in them.

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Jan 4, 2005 3:02:20 AM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
I cant remember where I heard it but the corvettes are terrible quality compared to most 75K+ euro cars. Nothing like a loud squeaky sun roof

I would much prefer a kit car over a vette (better quality

watch it ryan, the american cars are rising to the top of JD Powers and other reliability and quality measuring sticks at the same time the germans (like porsche largely because of their cayenne! - and likely 8 model years of RMS issues) are plummeting.

fwiw though, these Z06 #s (very similar to the F430s) are a crock of crap. i'm just not buying that a vastly superior V10 in the CGT and V12 in the Enzo with the same weight and much better and more expensive technology and materials are on par with the Z06 and the F430. i think most of us know better. ferrari's test was a joke (downhill and "calculated") and the Z06s haven't even been independently tested. interestingly enough, at the ferrari test track with ferrari test drivers, the 430 is like 3 seconds slower than the enzo and only on par with the stradale.

all that said, the Z06 is a rip roaring bargain that it's even compared to such cars while being a tiny fraction of the cost.

fwiw, GM is the largest automobile advertiser in C&D and R&T and i can't help but wonder sometimes if that has any effect on the numbers and conclusions contained in them.

I understand the reliability part but I have never heard anyone praise the feel and build quality of a Vette...I dont think I ever will.

Can you imagine someone saying "I've never felt a more positive feeling car than this Corvette."? That just doesnt sound possible.

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Jan 4, 2005 3:16:17 AM

Porsche Addict: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 82, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 1, 2004; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: The new C6 and Z06

don't care what anyone says...the vette is a bargain and a great car. To all the ppl in doubt...go ahead and make fun of the C6 and new ZO6, but when you pull up to a traffic-light and it beats the cr*p out of ur finely crafted italian/german/whatever foreign car I wonder who will be laughing?!?!

PS...i luv Porsches, i think they're the best cars in the world. But i felt that i had to stand up for the domestics that always get a bad wrap. (I'm a big fan of muscle, maybe that's why I drive my friends '72 Chevelle regularly

)

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Jan 4, 2005 3:49:31 AM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: Porsche Addict

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Im not trying to knock the Corvette, Im just saying that I prefer quality well built cars. Is there somthing wrong with that?

I know that the new Vettes are very fast, thats no secret. It seems though that the 75K+ is nothing but performance oriented and lacking other areas of a cars enjoyment.

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Jan 4, 2005 4:07:43 AM

Porsche Addict: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 82, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 1, 2004; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: The new C6 and Z06

hey ryan

...don't take it personal! (my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular)

i see ur point, thats why I'm a member of a porsche forum (or mainly anyway) rather then a corvette one

just saying that yes they focus on performance...and they get plenty of it for a good price. Yep u don't get the luxury or comfort as the Europeans but then again some people don't care. If your lookin for a car that goes fast..and thats it...its a good buy. Sometimes people forget that and then go around saying that all American cars suck. And that's what gets me mad.

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Jan 4, 2005 4:54:48 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
nberry said:My question is aside from mass production (no differnt than Porsche) why do we snub at our nose at these car?

Serious lack of refinement, from what i've read, including poor build quality, impossibly hard suspensions, plastic bodyparts, leafsprings , etc..
And who's we? I see people around here welcoming the Z06

Quote:
the C6 was voted the Best Car of 2005 besting the Ford GT, the 997S and others

Only because it's cheap.

Refinement is a relative term. What keeps me from buying a Corvette is nothing more than perception. In the recent past it has had a checkered history regarding build quality. However lately, in reading reviews on the car, they have made tremendous strides in quality inprovement. If I was inclined to track a car regularly this (Z06) would be a serious contender.

Do you realize with the strength of the Euro, Europeans can be buying this performance leader for substantially less money compared to any European build car.

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Jan 4, 2005 7:05:04 AM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: Porsche Addict

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
Porsche Addict said:
hey ryan ...don't take it personal! (my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular)

Ok understood

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Jan 4, 2005 8:35:00 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Moogle

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
Moogle said:
yeah, i heard the 75k figure also, thats gonna kill it.

The price is an interesting point because I've read on corvette forums about current z06 owners worrying about the price tag. It seems that if they understand the differences between the C5 z06 and the C6 z06 then they'd see that the C6 is a better deal at 75k than the c5 was at 50. A real enthusiast would probably find a way to swing the extra 25k if the car was his or her dream. If they disagree about the worth, then they probably don't care about the lightweight chassis, brakes wheels etc and should just get a regular C6 and play with motor mods for a lot less money.

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Jan 4, 2005 12:14:15 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Yargk

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
C6 is a better deal at 75k than the c5 was at 50.

So the Z06 went through a 50% price increase? Wow.

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Jan 4, 2005 1:32:37 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
ben, lj said:
fwiw, GM is the largest automobile advertiser in C&D and R&T and i can't help but wonder sometimes if that has any effect on the numbers and conclusions contained in them.

Ben,

I have known a good many of the editors/test-drivers at both magazines. Some for as long as twenty-five years. I can honestly say that they all try to get the "best" numbers possible for every car they test. It's a point of competitive pride between magazines.

They also have an informal system of peer review that prevents long-term bias from taking hold. Sure, some individual writer may have a distaste or fetish for some particualr brand or name plate. But, the other writers find ways to balance this out, if not in the same story, at least over time.

Car magazines do develop a personality or group-think over a period of years that becomes obvious to the reader. That's what causes individuals to be drawn to or repelled from certain journals -- agreement (or not) with the underlying assumptions of "what makes for the best car?"

Car and Driver has a very performance-oriented mind set. Most of the old-timers there are graduates of various engineering schools (Iowa, MIT, etc.) with time served in Detroit auto industry engineering jobs before they became journalists. They value hard numbers as a way of life, and I think their writing over the years has that obvious flavor.

The advertising-driven publishers' expediency that might try to corrupt good reporting is often headed-off at the pass. David E. Davis once instructed Car and Driver's road testers to include (over their objections) a Mercedes 190 in a test of best-handling "imported" cars where I had the good fortune to hang out as it was under way. I have a video of the test driver calling the 190 a "teutonic turd" after struggling to get it around the various timed test courses in the most complimentary fashion. All the track photos and mountain-road beauty shots were taken with the 190 in the mix. After the test was wrapped up, the project editor called Davis with the results.

After hearing how out-classed the 190 was in the midst of the competition (Porsche, Ferrari, Honda, Lotus, Audi), Davis decided to spare Mercedes the embarassment. The photos were tweaked by the art department to remove the 190 and the story that ran in the magazine never mentioned Mercedes in any way.

Is that bias? Or, is it just good manners?

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Jan 4, 2005 3:01:27 PM

Gary(SF): Senior; Loc: SF Bay Area; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
ben, lj said:
the 430 is like 3 seconds slower than the enzo and only on par with the stradale.

You're forgetting the difference in tires again, Ben. On equal rubber I would be amazed if the 430 didn't run right with the CS at Fiorano.

Gary

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Jan 4, 2005 3:44:57 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Gary(SF)

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
tdf360 said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
the 430 is like 3 seconds slower than the enzo and only on par with the stradale.

You're forgetting the difference in tires again, Ben. On equal rubber I would be amazed if the 430 didn't run right with the CS at Fiorano.

Gary

thanks for the clarification mike.

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Jan 4, 2005 3:48:10 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
tdf360 said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
the 430 is like 3 seconds slower than the enzo and only on par with the stradale.

You're forgetting the difference in tires again, Ben. On equal rubber I would be amazed if the 430 didn't run right with the CS at Fiorano.

Gary

thanks for the clarification mike.

i keep hearing about these tires (the same situation on the RS we deemed to be invalid since it doesn't come stock with them and is therefore modified with them - the topic often comes up with the M3 CSL as well). however, even if i grant your 1 sec diff on that particular track, the diff between a modena and stradale is still 66% that of the diff between the 430 and enzo which i think we both have to agree is quite meaningful! we're going to have to agree to disagree because you're never going to convince me the modena can run with the CS on the same track with the same driver on the same day - even more so with "stock" tires.

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Jan 4, 2005 7:22:48 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Not a chance a Modena can keep up with a CS, especially at the track, but the Stradale's R-compound tires expand that difference even further.

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Jan 5, 2005 2:09:27 AM

Gary(SF): Senior; Loc: SF Bay Area; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
ben, lj said:
you're never going to convince me the modena can run with the CS on the same track with the same driver on the same day - even more so with "stock" tires.

If you'll re-read my post I said for sure the CS is faster than the Modena, just not 3 sec at Fiorano with equal rubber. I would buy a 1 sec difference. I also believe the 430 would run right with the CS given equal tires. If I had to pick a winner between the two I'd say the 430. And don't misunderstand, I LOVE the CS, just trying to make a rational adjustment for the tires.

Gary

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Jan 5, 2005 2:12:27 AM

Gary(SF): Senior; Loc: SF Bay Area; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: The new C6 and Z06

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Not a chance a Modena can keep up with a CS, especially at the track, but the Stradale's R-compound tires expand that difference even further.

Well, as I said, I think the CS would be faster, on equal tires maybe a second at Fiorano.

Gary

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