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    Dec 29, 2004 5:56:42 AM

    MKW
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    Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Interesting response from Amedeo Felisa , Dep Managing Dir, Ferrari ( chief of engineering ) to the question " Is there any possibility you might use supercharging ? " in Jan 2005 Automobile Magazine.
    " Regulations, in terms of emissions and fuel consumption , might force us to use turbocharging . If emissions become much more stringent in the future , it's possible that engines will use direct injection ( DI) and turbocharging . At the moment, it is not possible to get a breakthrough because we need to be able to go to much higher pressures on the DI side. But in five to seven years' time, I think engines will be very different from today , even on sports cars . "
    Since that time frame is where development is now occuring , is he using this carefully worded response as a way of gradually paving the way for something veering away from the tifosi demand that 8-8500 rpm normally aspirated motors are a Ferrari must have ?

    Dec 29, 2004 6:22:30 AM

    WBH
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Given F doesn't plan to materially increase annual production; the unprecedented advance demand for 430 (I'm hearing $100Kish premiums over MSRP for early 430s in US); the (controversial-looking) 612 has already been sold out (for 2-3 yrs US production at least); and coming 600 sounds like a phenomenal Enzo-threatening performance machine....I suspect F has built quite a base of addicted customers w/resources who trust F's performance engineering judgements....clearly F's buyer base helps reduce price-sensitivity as a barrier for its engineers' solutions to new regulations, etc....

    Dec 29, 2004 2:33:51 PM

    MKW
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    All financial/wealth mumble jumble aside, the basic question is whether you want a lower revving turbo ( which muffles that glorious sound and reduces lightning quick throttle response ) next generation V8 F430 successor in 2010 or not ? He seems to be saying there may be difficulties going forward with high rev na engines with the stricter emissions required by California ARB recently enacted for 2009 unless there is breakthrough in DI for their na engines.
    Who knows- Ferrari may just be blowing smoke to throw off the competition - I hope so.
    He also said most Ferraris of the future will not really need to go much faster or corner any quicker as they are at limits most road cars' drivers can deal with , but will use advancements in technology to make reaching those limits easier and more comfortable. He says the smoother Audi DSG -type tranny would be nice to have in the 612, but is not needed in the more sporting F430.

    Dec 29, 2004 3:38:47 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    All financial/wealth mumble jumble aside, the basic question is whether you want a lower revving turbo ( which muffles that glorious sound and reduces lightning quick throttle response ) next generation V8 F430 successor in 2010 or not ? He seems to be saying there may be difficulties going forward with high rev na engines with the stricter emissions required by California ARB recently enacted for 2009 unless there is breakthrough in DI for their na engines.
    Who knows- Ferrari may just be blowing smoke to throw off the competition - I hope so.
    He also said most Ferraris of the future will not really need to go much faster or corner any quicker as they are at limits most road cars' drivers can deal with , but will use advancements in technology to make reaching those limits easier and more comfortable. He says the smoother Audi DSG -type tranny would be nice to have in the 612, but is not needed in the more sporting F430.



    He also stated that the 430 was so fast he needed the F1 to comfortably operate the vehicle.

    Dec 29, 2004 4:13:15 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    He also stated that the 430 was so fast he needed the F1 to comfortably operate the vehicle.



    Nick, could you explain?

    Dec 29, 2004 5:10:49 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    He also stated that the 430 was so fast he needed the F1 to comfortably operate the vehicle.



    Nick, could you explain?



    Rossi, he did not elaborate but I believe he was trying to say the F1 was the only way most drivers could maximize the use of the car. His point in the interview was to say that cars needed to be more user friendly in order to get the most enjoyment out of the car. Ferrari was focusing on increasing the fun factor as opposed to just performance enhancement like PSM or sustantial increase in hp. Being able to dial performance is a good example.

    Dec 29, 2004 5:48:14 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Rossi, he did not elaborate but I believe he was trying to say the F1 was the only way most drivers could maximize the use of the car. His point in the interview was to say that cars needed to be more user friendly in order to get the most enjoyment out of the car. Ferrari was focusing on increasing the fun factor as opposed to just performance enhancement like PSM or sustantial increase in hp. Being able to dial performance is a good example.



    Hmm, I think it mostly depends on the driver's personal preferences. There are the F1-nuts, who enjoy the new transmission technology, as well as the manual-lovers, who adore the open gate, the metallic noise during shifting and the feeling while changing gears.
    To each his own and it also depends on the purpose of the car: tracking or normal driving. Also the F430 should have torque enough to gather speed quickly without shifting downwards, what means you won't need a gear change in this moment at all.

    But I find it very interesting, what he says about the Audi-DSG.

    Dec 29, 2004 6:57:22 PM

    bostonmini
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Nberry,
    funny, he talks about driver enjoyment in the automobile magazine, can u imagine saying that the only way to enjoy the car is to be using the F1? its not like going a bit slower in a stick is necessarily worse..Im sure id be faster with the F1 box, but id rather the metal clank of the 6 spd.

    Dec 30, 2004 7:33:43 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: bostonmini

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    Im sure id be faster with the F1 box, but id rather the metal clank of the 6 spd.



    Dec 30, 2004 9:56:07 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    All financial/wealth mumble jumble aside, the basic question is whether you want a lower revving turbo ( which muffles that glorious sound and reduces lightning quick throttle response )



    If you've ever driven against an F40 on the track as I have on several occasions, I don't think you'd be calling Ferrari turbo motors either low-revving nor muffled sounding

    Dec 30, 2004 11:16:59 PM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    high revving naturally aspiratared rocks.

    compare the supercharged V8 of the ford GT40 (6000~ redline), with the F430's high revving NA. (8000~)

    i think its clear what MOST car enthusiasts would go for. in terms of JUST engines.

    Dec 31, 2004 12:45:07 AM

    MKW
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    All financial/wealth mumble jumble aside, the basic question is whether you want a lower revving turbo ( which muffles that glorious sound and reduces lightning quick throttle response )



    If you've ever driven against an F40 on the track as I have on several occasions, I don't think you'd be calling Ferrari turbo motors either low-revving nor muffled sounding



    I specifically avoided commenting on the F40. Though it's the car that really got Ferrari back on track after the Miami Vice image of the TR almost made them look like Lamborghini, it seems that most tifosi welcomed the return of the responsive screaming single seater racer sounding na motor in the F50 vs the turbo lagging closed road racer roaring soundof the F40.

    My hypothetical question : how many want a 600 hp turbo V8 redlined at say 7500 rpm vs a 550 hp na V8 redlined at 8500 rpm in the F430 successor in 2010 if emssions regs then or their marketers force them into this choice ? Take into account sound and throttle response and heritage in the mid-engined V8 model in your decision. I would chose the latter - it's such part of the V8 model's brand identity.

    Dec 31, 2004 2:03:56 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    MKW - I understand your point and my personal preference is also for high-revving NA motors.

    Dec 31, 2004 7:57:19 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    My hypothetical question : how many want a 600 hp turbo V8 redlined at say 7500 rpm vs a 550 hp na V8 redlined at 8500 rpm in the F430 successor in 2010 if emssions regs then or their marketers force them into this choice ?



    I would surely prefer the latter. If I wanted something like the first one, I'd opt for a Porsche turbo.

    Dec 31, 2004 8:33:51 AM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    the F40 is a beast, i had the pleasure of driving one on the street, a family friend, who is a F-car NUT was kind enough to lend it to me for 3 days.

    it FLIES, the turbo lag is terrible, but when it gets on, it GOES.

    and another thing, i parked it to go into a store, by the time i got out, there was a crowd of people gathered around it just oogling.

    its the daddy of all Fcars.

    Jan 3, 2005 8:51:00 PM

    CivicRydr
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: Force- fed Ferrari motors in future ?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    My hypothetical question : how many want a 600 hp turbo V8 redlined at say 7500 rpm vs a 550 hp na V8 redlined at 8500 rpm in the F430 successor in 2010 if emssions regs then or their marketers force them into this choice ? Take into account sound and throttle response and heritage in the mid-engined V8 model in your decision. I would chose the latter - it's such part of the V8 model's brand identity.



    I haven't driven that many top level sports cars (Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche), but I have had low & mid level, NA & Turbo cars such as the Integra GSR & Eclipse GST and E46 BMW M3 & Supra-TT(moded).

    In both cases, the Turbo cars were faster, and in both cases, I liked the NA car more. I just love the way the Honda and BMW engines respond, as well as their tune while singing along at 8000revs. The turbo cars did have a gobs of power once they spooled up, but especially in the case of the Supra, the burst of power was unexpected and upset the chassis.

    Engines are not all about power, they are also about how they allow the driver communicate with the engine and extract the desired amount of power. For this fact, NA engines win hands down in my mind.

    I'd hate to see turbos strapped on to future F's.
     
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