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Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
This article proves that IQ and practical knowledge testing of automobile writers might be a good idea. 
If the BMW M5 is a "proper sports car" by virtue of its high output V-10,than so is the 500hp Dodge SRT Viper V10 powered pick up truck that costs half the price, has five times the luggage capacity, a 6spd manual gearbox and better brakes than a M5.
If the BMW M5 is a "proper sports car" by virtue of its high output V-10,than so is the 500hp Dodge SRT Viper V10 powered pick up truck that costs half the price, has five times the luggage capacity, a 6spd manual gearbox and better brakes than a M5.
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
The 911 "packaging sucks, the rear-engine platform is a neatly cultivated anachronism and it takes a lot of skill and courage to close the gap between car and driver." "unless your Walter Roehl" the M5 is a better choice" 
I hate to write; I TOLD YOU SO! 
This is coming from Car magazine which has anointed the 997 its car of the year!
I hate to write; I TOLD YOU SO! This is coming from Car magazine which has anointed the 997 its car of the year!
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
The M5 is a better choice? for who? For the lazy and unskilled? For year end bonuses for BMW service managers?
For brake pad companies?
So some Brit scribe found a M5 more comfortable and easier to drive. Oooooh. Isnt that special!
Maybe the M5 deserves a special award for uber girly mans car of the year. Notice his concern over switchger frippery, im sure hes just as obsessed about his sweater collection.
For brake pad companies?
So some Brit scribe found a M5 more comfortable and easier to drive. Oooooh. Isnt that special!
Maybe the M5 deserves a special award for uber girly mans car of the year. Notice his concern over switchger frippery, im sure hes just as obsessed about his sweater collection.
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The M5 is a better choice? for who? For the lazy and unskilled? For year end bonuses for BMW service managers?
For brake pad companies?
So some Brit scribe found a M5 more comfortable and easier to drive. Oooooh. Isnt that special!
Maybe the M5 deserves a special award for uber girly mans car of the year. Notice his concern over switchger frippery, im sure hes just as obsessed about his sweater collection.
Yep, the 911 (at least the RWD versions) rewards the skilled driver for his effort more so than a heavy 4 door sedan for sure. IOW, the 911 is more of a driver's car (though that is being diluted iteration after iteration with more GT like qualities, electronics, and weight). Both cars serve vastly different needs even if "magazine" performance #s have them compare more similarly. The author of this particular article doesn't sound much like a driver to me.
:D:D
Dec 30, 2004 2:56:54 AM
- Jeff (in SF)
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- Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States
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- Registered on: Nov 13, 2003
- Reply to: ben, lj
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The M5 is a better choice? for who? For the lazy and unskilled? For year end bonuses for BMW service managers?
For brake pad companies?
So some Brit scribe found a M5 more comfortable and easier to drive. Oooooh. Isnt that special!
Maybe the M5 deserves a special award for uber girly mans car of the year. Notice his concern over switchger frippery, im sure hes just as obsessed about his sweater collection.
Yep, the 911 (at least the RWD versions) rewards the skilled driver for his effort more so than a heavy 4 door sedan for sure. IOW, the 911 is more of a driver's car (though that is being diluted iteration after iteration with more GT like qualities, electronics, and weight). Both cars serve vastly different needs even if "magazine" performance #s have them compare more similarly. The author of this particular article doesn't sound much like a driver to me.
Agreed.
Dec 30, 2004 3:28:52 AM
- Holminator
- Veteran
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- Loc: USA , United States
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- Reply to: Jeff (in SF)
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Come On!! Car magazine has fawned over Porsche for years. They named the 997S their car of the year!
It is of no surprise that all of you find solace in claiming it is a car for the true driver. What drivel. Walter Roehl you are not. Wake up and stop fooling yourselves.
The 911 is a car for those who tell themselves "I am a great drive and therefore I should own a Porsche". Porsche relies on your self deceit and continue buying a 50 year old platform. There is nothing like playing up to one's ego to relieve them of their hard earned money
It is of no surprise that all of you find solace in claiming it is a car for the true driver. What drivel. Walter Roehl you are not. Wake up and stop fooling yourselves.
The 911 is a car for those who tell themselves "I am a great drive and therefore I should own a Porsche". Porsche relies on your self deceit and continue buying a 50 year old platform. There is nothing like playing up to one's ego to relieve them of their hard earned money
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Ahhhh yesss ....
We all know that San Diego Ferrari owners really get maximimum use of their cars. San Diego Ferrari owners are known world wide to be the best judge of the fast,"I have arrived" auto market segment.(almost, you do compete with South Beach in Miami)
Yes, Ferraris are the ne plus ultra for trolling for elderly matrons in La Jolla or Botox queens in South Beach. But are Ferraris really useful for other than cloggin up E Bay bandwidth or creating endless pages of "never seen rain or been smoked in" red colored rubbish in Hemmings?
How many Ferraris dare take a trip anywhere except to their detailers? Even with better reliability they simply aren't used to go anywhere! They remind me somewhat of artificial indoor plants.
Slag on Porsches all you want Nick, but at the end of the day, its Porsche with the better and more useful sports car,faults, warts, sport chrono and all.
Alas, oh vanity, thy name Ferrari.
We all know that San Diego Ferrari owners really get maximimum use of their cars. San Diego Ferrari owners are known world wide to be the best judge of the fast,"I have arrived" auto market segment.(almost, you do compete with South Beach in Miami)
Yes, Ferraris are the ne plus ultra for trolling for elderly matrons in La Jolla or Botox queens in South Beach. But are Ferraris really useful for other than cloggin up E Bay bandwidth or creating endless pages of "never seen rain or been smoked in" red colored rubbish in Hemmings?
How many Ferraris dare take a trip anywhere except to their detailers? Even with better reliability they simply aren't used to go anywhere! They remind me somewhat of artificial indoor plants.
Slag on Porsches all you want Nick, but at the end of the day, its Porsche with the better and more useful sports car,faults, warts, sport chrono and all.
Alas, oh vanity, thy name Ferrari.
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche relies on your self deceit and continue buying a 50 year old platform. There is nothing like playing up to one's ego to relieve them of their hard earned money
Your Ferrari worship and Porsche bashing gets a little old.
I compared some figures from Road & Track magazine for the 395HP Ferrari Spider verses the 355HP 997 S Porsche.
Cost: Ferrari $164,985 / Porsche $79,100 (Winner Porsche)
0-60 MPH: Ferrari 4.5 sec / Porsche 4.4 (Winner Porsche)
Braking 60-0 MPH: Ferrari 125 ft / Porsche 109 ft (Porsche)
Slalom: Ferrari 66.6MPH / Porsche 69.6MPH (Winner Porsche)
Skidpad: Ferrari .93g / Porsche 94g (Winner Porsche)
So how does a Porsche with such a old platform beat a modern Ferrari that costs 109% more? Who is doing a better job of relieving buyers of their hard earned money, Porsche or Ferrari?
Imagine the numbers the 997 Turbo will produce (and still at a much lower cost than a Ferrari).
Phil
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
You can't compare Porsche and Ferrari prices when Ferrari owners want to pay more.
If you want to compare performance between the Ferrari and Porsche, its only fair to add the Corvette C6 in the mix.
Even though its made in Kentucky (banjo dreams) and doesnt have a prissy interior,or a options list that appeals to
embezzlers,it does offer comprable performance.
If you want to compare performance between the Ferrari and Porsche, its only fair to add the Corvette C6 in the mix.
Even though its made in Kentucky (banjo dreams) and doesnt have a prissy interior,or a options list that appeals to
embezzlers,it does offer comprable performance.
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Quote:
PS CA said:Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche relies on your self deceit and continue buying a 50 year old platform. There is nothing like playing up to one's ego to relieve them of their hard earned money
Your Ferrari worship and Porsche bashing gets a little old.
I compared some figures from Road & Track magazine for the 395HP Ferrari Spider verses the 355HP 997 S Porsche.
Cost: Ferrari $164,985 / Porsche $79,100 (Winner Porsche)
0-60 MPH: Ferrari 4.5 sec / Porsche 4.4 (Winner Porsche)
Braking 60-0 MPH: Ferrari 125 ft / Porsche 109 ft (Porsche)
Slalom: Ferrari 66.6MPH / Porsche 69.6MPH (Winner Porsche)
Skidpad: Ferrari .93g / Porsche 94g (Winner Porsche)
So how does a Porsche with such a old platform beat a modern Ferrari that costs 109% more? Who is doing a better job of relieving buyers of their hard earned money, Porsche or Ferrari?
Imagine the numbers the 997 Turbo will produce (and still at a much lower cost than a Ferrari).
Phil
A 2001 360 Spider sells for more money than original MSRP. What does a used 996/997 sell for compared to their MSRP?
BTW, the Spider was first introduced in 1999 so your comparing 1999 technology with 2005. Six years difference but if your comparing Ferrari to Porsche I guess it is fair.
Phil in your dreams are you related to Mr. Hill?
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
This is just the second half of a 9 page piece entitled " Split Personality " by respected German auto writer Georg Kacher twinned side -by-side with a simultaneous comparo with the CLS 55 AMG under the question of whether the M5 can straddle the fence - not whether it's a pure sports car which the manufacturer doesn't claim it to be . So you have to read it whole to get the full gist of it.
My take on it is that the M5 should be looked at as a Ferrari 612 at 1/3 the price. ( both have styling issues, 4000 lb weight, 4 or 5 seats, seq manual trannnies, electronic driving diapers galore, normally aspirated engines ( as opposed to the force fed low rev Bentleys,AMGs, etc ) with wild redlines and exotic sounding howling engines ) .
My take on it is that the M5 should be looked at as a Ferrari 612 at 1/3 the price. ( both have styling issues, 4000 lb weight, 4 or 5 seats, seq manual trannnies, electronic driving diapers galore, normally aspirated engines ( as opposed to the force fed low rev Bentleys,AMGs, etc ) with wild redlines and exotic sounding howling engines ) .
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Ahhhh yesss ....
We all know that San Diego Ferrari owners really get maximimum use of their cars. San Diego Ferrari owners are known world wide to be the best judge of the fast,"I have arrived" auto market segment.(almost, you do compete with South Beach in Miami)
Yes, Ferraris are the ne plus ultra for trolling for elderly matrons in La Jolla or Botox queens in South Beach. But are Ferraris really useful for other than cloggin up E Bay bandwidth or creating endless pages of "never seen rain or been smoked in" red colored rubbish in Hemmings?
How many Ferraris dare take a trip anywhere except to their detailers? Even with better reliability they simply aren't used to go anywhere! They remind me somewhat of artificial indoor plants.
Slag on Porsches all you want Nick, but at the end of the day, its Porsche with the better and more useful sports car,faults, warts, sport chrono and all.
Alas, oh vanity, thy name Ferrari.
Comrade you remain in a time warp with your above comments. My point has consistantly been the performance is over rated in assessing cars. Though a factor a truly knowledgeable car enthusiast considers many other attributes. That is why the author of the above article concluded that the M5 is a better car for the sport car driver.
Regarding my negativity concerning Porsche it is because Porsche as a company has been picking the pockets of U.S. drivers for several years and it is time to call them on it. Today Porsche is not anymore reliable than a Ferrari, MB, BMW or any other car. The Cayenne is a service nightmare. 911 resale values are god awful and we customers are paying for this.
No the time is now to tell Porsche change its ways or we look elsewhere. Or those that consider themselves "great drivers" can continue buying Porsches and tell everyone how great they drive because they own a Porsche. Get my drift?
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
I wish I was in a time warp. The last Ferrari I saw make ir across several state lines unassisted was the Daytona in the first Gumball Rally movie.
Porsche doesnt pick anybody's pockets that don't ask for it. Customers who demand abcdefg of cutting edge electronic handling and comfort assists or who expect a small volume producer to make a "reliable" super fast truck are never really in for a surprise are they?
Porsche tradionally used its customers for Beta testing. Mechanical problems could be fixed and stay fixed. Now in this era software and wire end issues are illusive and can roccur randomly even when "fixed. "
If anyones pocket is being picked its Ferrari customers
and servicing. Why or Why does the Maserati GT buyer get
free maintenance and longer intervals when with a Ferrari with the same V8 the customer gets to pay for all service and have shorter intervals? Is that not a chump deal or what?
Eat on comrade, but both Porsche and Ferrari have the data anaysis research on their customers and know kust how far they can jerk their chains on the trophy car dance.
These companies know how to make your checkbook become their own.
Porsche doesnt pick anybody's pockets that don't ask for it. Customers who demand abcdefg of cutting edge electronic handling and comfort assists or who expect a small volume producer to make a "reliable" super fast truck are never really in for a surprise are they?
Porsche tradionally used its customers for Beta testing. Mechanical problems could be fixed and stay fixed. Now in this era software and wire end issues are illusive and can roccur randomly even when "fixed. "
If anyones pocket is being picked its Ferrari customers
and servicing. Why or Why does the Maserati GT buyer get
free maintenance and longer intervals when with a Ferrari with the same V8 the customer gets to pay for all service and have shorter intervals? Is that not a chump deal or what?
Eat on comrade, but both Porsche and Ferrari have the data anaysis research on their customers and know kust how far they can jerk their chains on the trophy car dance.
These companies know how to make your checkbook become their own.
Dec 30, 2004 7:59:13 AM
- Jeff (in SF)
- Pilot
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- Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States
- Posts: 340, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 13, 2003
- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:Had to laugh at that posting. Good one Jim.
JimFlat6 said:
Ahhhh yesss ....
We all know that San Diego Ferrari owners really get maximimum use of their cars. San Diego Ferrari owners are known world wide to be the best judge of the fast,"I have arrived" auto market segment.(almost, you do compete with South Beach in Miami)
Yes, Ferraris are the ne plus ultra for trolling for elderly matrons in La Jolla or Botox queens in South Beach. But are Ferraris really useful for other than cloggin up E Bay bandwidth or creating endless pages of "never seen rain or been smoked in" red colored rubbish in Hemmings?
How many Ferraris dare take a trip anywhere except to their detailers? Even with better reliability they simply aren't used to go anywhere! They remind me somewhat of artificial indoor plants.
Slag on Porsches all you want Nick, but at the end of the day, its Porsche with the better and more useful sports car,faults, warts, sport chrono and all.
Alas, oh vanity, thy name Ferrari.
Dec 30, 2004 8:04:12 AM
- Jeff (in SF)
- Pilot
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- Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States
- Posts: 340, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 13, 2003
- Reply to: nberry
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
PS CA said:Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche relies on your self deceit and continue buying a 50 year old platform. There is nothing like playing up to one's ego to relieve them of their hard earned money
Your Ferrari worship and Porsche bashing gets a little old.
I compared some figures from Road & Track magazine for the 395HP Ferrari Spider verses the 355HP 997 S Porsche.
Cost: Ferrari $164,985 / Porsche $79,100 (Winner Porsche)
0-60 MPH: Ferrari 4.5 sec / Porsche 4.4 (Winner Porsche)
Braking 60-0 MPH: Ferrari 125 ft / Porsche 109 ft (Porsche)
Slalom: Ferrari 66.6MPH / Porsche 69.6MPH (Winner Porsche)
Skidpad: Ferrari .93g / Porsche 94g (Winner Porsche)
So how does a Porsche with such a old platform beat a modern Ferrari that costs 109% more? Who is doing a better job of relieving buyers of their hard earned money, Porsche or Ferrari?
Imagine the numbers the 997 Turbo will produce (and still at a much lower cost than a Ferrari).
Phil
A 2001 360 Spider sells for more money than original MSRP. What does a used 996/997 sell for compared to their MSRP?
BTW, the Spider was first introduced in 1999 so your comparing 1999 technology with 2005. Six years difference but if your comparing Ferrari to Porsche I guess it is fair.
Phil in your dreams are you related to Mr. Hill?
Sorry, but if you intend to paint a modern Ferrari as an investment of sorts, I'd love to be your financial planner. There are plenty of other assets and financial instruments that will trounce ANY Ferrari when it comes to preserving and increasing wealth. Unfortunately, you can't drive any of them however. But if you want to drive, it's been proven in the many postings/reviews/car magazines/etc. that Porsche's are the better way to go.
Will you still feel the same way about your new F430 when it's parked behind a Chevy Malibu waiting for service? (see "GM eyes Ferrari")
Dec 30, 2004 9:34:22 AM
- JimFlat6
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- Loc: Cave , United States
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Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Thanks, but its pretty easy to mock planet Ferrari.
I once met the president of a regional chapter of a Ferrari club,(these I discovered also serve as AARP outposts) he claimed to all present that his 10 year old Ferrari still had the original factory air in its tires.
That encounter made me rethink my urge to own a Ferrari 288 GTO and hunt for a Monteverdi HAI 450SS instead.
I once met the president of a regional chapter of a Ferrari club,(these I discovered also serve as AARP outposts) he claimed to all present that his 10 year old Ferrari still had the original factory air in its tires.
That encounter made me rethink my urge to own a Ferrari 288 GTO and hunt for a Monteverdi HAI 450SS instead.
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
The Porsche is harder to drive, and it takes a better driver to fully enjoy it, says the magazine.
The nick comes along, saying that those who buy porsches for their performace and drivability are just pretending to be good drivers.
I guess he just can't grasp that there are actually good drivers, and people that don't buy the car to show it off...
As i said before, my parrots are less repetitive.
The nick comes along, saying that those who buy porsches for their performace and drivability are just pretending to be good drivers.
I guess he just can't grasp that there are actually good drivers, and people that don't buy the car to show it off...
As i said before, my parrots are less repetitive.
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Ok I thought the article might stir up a few people.
I'd like to make some points as I am a perfect M5 buyer or so it would it seem. I currently run a M3 with SMG which I have nothing but praise for and up until recently almost placed a deposit on a new M5 (2 year lead time) as a sort of insurance if do not get on with my soon to arrive C2s.
Even though the SMG is a superb gearbox I wouldn't want the installation on a more powerful 'sports car set up'. From rolling start everything is fine but launch control for road driving just does not work for me. In fact, I have never used the launch control, just imagine high revs and sequencing of spot button, gear selection and traction control settings to get a quick start form the lights, I would feel and look like a complete dick and did you know that to many launches effect warranty?
I noticed that BMW have overcome the warranty issue and the mechanical stresses by having a 45 minute rest time after each launch, what's happened to good old fashioned clutch control and after all the M5 is supposed to be a sports car and not an electronic lab.
I have no need for such a big car ( a family saloon) and by that I also mean weight, I remember the days when we drove lower powered cars with less weight and what fun they were.
I do not regard the M5 as a sports car but a sports family saloon and it will probably fit the purpose well.
Another point; I love my M3 and can afford to keep the car when the PO turns up, but I wont, because I am not comfortable with its long term reliability, please do not get me wrong the car has been impeccably reliable to date, but I'm concerned about the high stress ( high revving) engine and here in the UK the 100,000 mile guarantee which our American brothers have in place is not available. I feel this could also be a problem with the new M5.
To our Ferrari friend....The cars your gloating about cost substantially more than the entry level 997's we talk about on this forum, in fact here in the UK there is not a current Ferrari model under Pounds100,000. Perhaps your comparisons' should be made when the Turbo arrives.
The residuals for the 911 here in the UK are strong, and when combined with ease of use, reliability v performance and long term liveability, it makes a strong case for the best all round SPORTS CAR at the best price.
Almost forgot, I also prefer the more subtle look of PO when comparing to the Ferrari's, fairy on the tree status.
I'd like to make some points as I am a perfect M5 buyer or so it would it seem. I currently run a M3 with SMG which I have nothing but praise for and up until recently almost placed a deposit on a new M5 (2 year lead time) as a sort of insurance if do not get on with my soon to arrive C2s.
Even though the SMG is a superb gearbox I wouldn't want the installation on a more powerful 'sports car set up'. From rolling start everything is fine but launch control for road driving just does not work for me. In fact, I have never used the launch control, just imagine high revs and sequencing of spot button, gear selection and traction control settings to get a quick start form the lights, I would feel and look like a complete dick and did you know that to many launches effect warranty?
I noticed that BMW have overcome the warranty issue and the mechanical stresses by having a 45 minute rest time after each launch, what's happened to good old fashioned clutch control and after all the M5 is supposed to be a sports car and not an electronic lab.
I have no need for such a big car ( a family saloon) and by that I also mean weight, I remember the days when we drove lower powered cars with less weight and what fun they were.
I do not regard the M5 as a sports car but a sports family saloon and it will probably fit the purpose well.
Another point; I love my M3 and can afford to keep the car when the PO turns up, but I wont, because I am not comfortable with its long term reliability, please do not get me wrong the car has been impeccably reliable to date, but I'm concerned about the high stress ( high revving) engine and here in the UK the 100,000 mile guarantee which our American brothers have in place is not available. I feel this could also be a problem with the new M5.
To our Ferrari friend....The cars your gloating about cost substantially more than the entry level 997's we talk about on this forum, in fact here in the UK there is not a current Ferrari model under Pounds100,000. Perhaps your comparisons' should be made when the Turbo arrives.
The residuals for the 911 here in the UK are strong, and when combined with ease of use, reliability v performance and long term liveability, it makes a strong case for the best all round SPORTS CAR at the best price.
Almost forgot, I also prefer the more subtle look of PO when comparing to the Ferrari's, fairy on the tree status.
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
I read this article with some frustration as Georg Kacher was the first writer in Car magazine to rave about the new 911 without exception. On that particular issue about the dash, I seem to recall him saying that whilst there were a few too many buttons in the centre dash, it was a perfect mix of form and function. A few months later, he says the opposite.
I have noticed with Georg Kacher that he is often the first journo to drive a new car - eg he was the first review I read of the Audi TT way back in 1999 - and it's rare that he says a bad word in these "exclusive" reviews. He's quite happy to change his mind a bit later on however.
Still, that a journo's perogative I suppose.
I have noticed with Georg Kacher that he is often the first journo to drive a new car - eg he was the first review I read of the Audi TT way back in 1999 - and it's rare that he says a bad word in these "exclusive" reviews. He's quite happy to change his mind a bit later on however.
Still, that a journo's perogative I suppose.
Dec 30, 2004 1:39:52 PM
- nicholas j
- Senior
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- Loc: Upstate New York , United States
- Posts: 646, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 23, 2004
- Reply to: ben, lj
Re: CAR MAG new M5 v C2s
I went from a 740i to an M3. I test drove the M5 and while it is no doubt powerful, it's a big car, window pillars are too thick, giving a certain "darkness" to the interior. I ordered the 997S. To me, it's much sportier to drive and the sport seats are head and shoulders above the M5.
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