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RC said:
Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't the guy own a 996 Carrera 2? Please "enlighten" me.
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JasonF said:
For Porsche's sake, I sincerely hope that they have ironed-out this issue with the 997 model run. After all, they have had at least 7 years to figure it out.
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MMD said:Quote:
JasonF said:
For Porsche's sake, I sincerely hope that they have ironed-out this issue with the 997 model run. After all, they have had at least 7 years to figure it out.
Amen Brother!
I'm curious why RMS leaks have been such an issue for so long. What in the engine design makes this such a chronic problem for Porsche? Is it the split crankcase? Or is the high failure rate a misperception?
Oil seals are nothing new, and modern polymers should make them bullet proof.
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ADias said:
The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.
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ben, lj said:Quote:
ADias said:
The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.
Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?
"...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."
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ADias said:Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
ADias said:
The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.
Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?
"...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."
My understanding ist that neither have been positively confirmed. I'm as interested in learning about this as anyone, but I do not care for speculation.
I think that on a statistical basis RMS failures are a few percent. Is it unfortunate? Yes. However, many engines do leak, Porsche's included. The different shaft design on the M96 engine is the reason for the occasional RMS failure. I'm in the camp who thinks PAG should take care of any repair (or engine replacement) even if the warranty has expired. As long as they do that it's fine w/ me.
Dec 27, 2004 8:40:27 PM
Dec 27, 2004 8:53:47 PM
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Carlos from Spain said:
Now Ben, C4S surjeon himself said that he had no more info on it and will try to confirm it, since he was told it was an "RMS leak" on the fly but could find out more about it, and then in another thread said he was told it was an "oil leak".
As an out of warranty sufferer of the RMS issue (and no, in Spain, Porsche does not take responsibility of RMS leaks out of warranty) I'm the first one who will jump on Porsche's back at the first sign of the RMS issue continuing in the 997, but there are many posible/comon places were the leak could be coming from that we ussually jump to "RMS" before checking it out. This single leak rumor has been spread to in 3 different forums already and not by C4S surjeon, he just mentined it on one thread and other peopple took it form there. Until confirmation, a simple VIN and Tool Pants sain he would check up the repairs done, we should not jump into conclusions. I like Antonio am very interested on this and keeping a close eye on RMS in the 997 but do not care for specualtions either just to hurt Porsche.
Besides one RMS leak would not prove anything either, any car can have an RMS leak on (rarely but happens) but the 996 RMS leak issue was/is ridiculous, there were/are so frequent (about 30% of cars) that if its true that its not fixed in the 997 then we will soon find out sure enough from the numerous report that will be appearing.
Dec 27, 2004 9:00:23 PM
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ben, lj said:Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
ADias said:
The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.
Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?
"...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."
My understanding ist that neither have been positively confirmed. I'm as interested in learning about this as anyone, but I do not care for speculation.
I think that on a statistical basis RMS failures are a few percent. Is it unfortunate? Yes. However, many engines do leak, Porsche's included. The different shaft design on the M96 engine is the reason for the occasional RMS failure. I'm in the camp who thinks PAG should take care of any repair (or engine replacement) even if the warranty has expired. As long as they do that it's fine w/ me.
Doesn't look like speculation to me AT ALL. C4S Surgeon had his car in for service and saw a 997S in there as well. Do you think he just pulled the 2k miles or RMS diagnosis out of his rear end or do you suppose it came from someone in service or sales? Did you even bother to get in touch with him to check it out before accusing him of speculating or is it easier just to condemn?
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As for a small %, a poll conducted on Rennlist suggests it's close to 35 to 40%! That's not what I consider a small %.
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The problem is such a low % that the dealership "tool pants" works for requires THREE RMS failures on 911s and FOUR on Boxsters before a new engine is ok'd!!! There is NO excuse for this crap to still be going on from 1997!!!!! A friend of mine is on his 3rd or 4th in 50k miles and that is just WRONG. Why should he have to pay for RMS repairs out of warranty when Porsche KNOWS this to be a defect in their design? Like BMW extending the warranty on their grenading M3 motors to 10 years and 100k miles, Porsche should step up and replace RMS failures and/or engines which are out of spec which they know will require RMS replacements multiple times as a result. Their failure to do so illustrates a complete lack of concern for their customers and reputation vs. profits. Given they've coward away from racing since 1998, their reputation is all they have and it would be good if they'd stop pissing on it.
Dec 27, 2004 11:08:57 PM
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ben, lj said:
Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%.
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ben, lj said:...
This whole situation sounds fishy. Anyway, I'm sure time will tell whether there is still an RMS problem. If there is, they may be able to hide a couple cases, but the internet (and Motor Trend pool cars) will reveal it soon enough.
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"I doubt it is that high percentage. What is your basis to state that? 2% is the actual RMS failure rate my dealer has experienced - and I know they were telling me the truth."
Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%. So, according to Carlos, my 35% to 40% actual poll results from Rennlist were a little high, but your dealer's 2% number is absurdly low.
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"Note - Ben - why do you come across so aggressive?"
No idea except for maybe the denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.
As relates this aggregious customer screwing RMS problem, "can Ferrari do this"? Or is this where we all post Ford GT recalls as if the news of them gives us a hard on?
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ADias said:Quote:
ben, lj said:...
The denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.
This is a Porsche forum and if there is some reaction is to the posts that often have no point other than putting down and minimizing this forum member's choices. No P-car forum member denies the obvious corrections that PAG should/must make when warranted.
Dec 28, 2004 12:20:55 AM
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Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
ben, lj said:
Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%.
were did you get that impression!? I deal with spines not cars I have no relation to Porsche except being an owner, just for the record
As to the 30% incidence rate claim, thats the result from a survey conducted by the Porsche Club of GB among Boxster owners. Now they are conducting a survey among carrera owners. Thats the best information that is out there right now on the issue. Dealers are notoriously lying about the issue, just like they were liying to onwers when they were telling people that the RMS isssue was fixed with the 2002 new seal, although some of them admit to custormers the amount of RMS reapairs they do per week and from the reports I have heard its around that ballpark. All anyone needs to do is take a look at the web boards and see that the RMS is by far the most common issue in the carreras and boxsters.
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brunner said:Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
ben, lj said:...
The denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.
This is a Porsche forum and if there is some reaction is to the posts that often have no point other than putting down and minimizing this forum member's choices. No P-car forum member denies the obvious corrections that PAG should/must make when warranted.
Well said
(you saved me from spending a lot of time trying to respond as concisely as you did )
Dec 28, 2004 12:32:39 AM
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DD694 said:
Shaft seal failure is usually the result of:
misalignment of seal to shaft
shaft out of round
Shaft whipping as it rotates
Why any of these conditions should exist in a Porsche engine is beyond me.
The fix for any of these conditions cannot be done inexpensively, as they all involve re-machining the seal mounting position, the crankshaft or a re-design of the crankshaft and/or block.
In my opinion, no amount of replacment seals of any design is going to resolve this problem if the underlying geometry is wrong.
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ben, lj said:
Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.
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vtrader said:Quote:
ben, lj said:
Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.
On this board and others, there are several hundred 997/997S owners. Yet not one single one has come forward with a RMS failure. Based on the failure rate on the 996, you would expect several if not many would have already had experienced this failure. There have already been at least 1500 cars sold in the US already, where are these RMS failures? Until it is confirmed, it is pure speculation.
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ben, lj said:Quote:
vtrader said:Quote:
ben, lj said:
Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.
On this board and others, there are several hundred 997/997S owners. Yet not one single one has come forward with a RMS failure. Based on the failure rate on the 996, you would expect several if not many would have already had experienced this failure. There have already been at least 1500 cars sold in the US already, where are these RMS failures? Until it is confirmed, it is pure speculation.
it's way too early to tell given the number of deliveries, number of deliveries represented by these message boards, and the number of miles thus far driven given the recent release of the car.