Crown

Wonderbar:

Do the Michelin Sport Cups have better grip than the Pirelli P zeros?

I‘d say yes, especially since the PZero Elec version is very likely made for the high torque EV engines (wear and so on...).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Wonderbar:

Do the Michelin Sport Cups have better grip than the Pirelli P zeros?

I‘d say yes, especially since the PZero Elec version is very likely made for the high torque EV engines (wear and so on...).

Plus low roll resistance, I assume.

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker, do you still have your 6.3 Mercedes? I had one back in 69– it was a stealth monster. I could surprise many folks with its acceleration. Mine was light metallic blue, don’t recall the exact color name.

Wonderbar:

Porker, do you still have your 6.3 Mercedes? I had one back in 69– it was a stealth monster. I could surprise many folks with its acceleration. Mine was light metallic blue, don’t recall the exact color name.

I still do but it's up for auction as we speak. Fantastic car but I have no use/place for it, if I get another classic it has to be sportier for me and rather 80's/90's.

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1969-mercedes-benz-300-sel-63-2

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Beautiful car, stunning interior!  Congratulations for owning it and keeping this classic so beautifully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3AvSjPGuzo

Topspeed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3AvSjPGuzo

 

I prefer that first car in his video...right at the beginning. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

The crazy thing is that those electric charging stations are charging 20 times as much money per kWh than I pay charging at home. This severely masks the huge cost benefit of the EV.  It is as though they are still at the stage where they think we can’t do math. Lol. Plus they add an extra one dollar fee.  Not even going to mention that model s and x supercharge for free. He paid like $53 for 68 kWh. $.78 per kWh. I pay .04 at home in the evening. I’m certain in Europe it is even much worse. 
next Big thing will be vehicle to grid. VTOG. You use your EV like 4 or 5 power walls to gather power in the evening from the grid or solar during the day and use vehicle power during all peak times. Every extra EV provides power backup and load balancer functions for the grid and helps save power and cost. 

Not unlike any other things for sale.

A $300 rack of prime ribs that I can buy at a butcher store can feed 14-16 people at home, but to feed the same number of people at a restaurant I will be looking at $60 a head just for the steak. 

I can wash a car at home for free, yet public car washes are not free,

You are paying for the convenience of not having to go home and charge, or extend the journey longer than the car is capable of.

Having those rates means it's equalizing the playing field for normal cars and EV cars, making ir a fair competition for the consumers. Government should cancel the tax subsidies too while they are at it. Make EV competes on merits, not a tiled fight.

Whoopsy:

Not unlike any other things for sale.

A $300 rack of prime ribs that I can buy at a butcher store can feed 14-16 people at home, but to feed the same number of people at a restaurant I will be looking at $60 a head just for the steak. 

I can wash a car at home for free, yet public car washes are not free,

You are paying for the convenience of not having to go home and charge, or extend the journey longer than the car is capable of.

Having those rates means it's equalizing the playing field for normal cars and EV cars, making ir a fair competition for the consumers. Government should cancel the tax subsidies too while they are at it. Make EV competes on merits, not a tiled fight.

 

 

And like the $300 rack of ribs I will eat at home. Thanks. My point was that sometimes, looking at the prices of that charge, they really think we don’t do the math and since it is still cheaper than gas we will not notice. 
No comment on the free Tesla supercharger. Is that like getting to eat a free $300 dinner anytime?  Cool. 

$53 for 68kWh charge, that's about 3/4 'tank' of charge.

With California gas pricing at ~$2.8 a gallon, that's almost 19 gallons of fuel for $53.

Say take a Panamera Turbo, not hybrid,  as comparison, it does 18 in city and 25 highway, 21 combined. Let's use the combined figure, then say someone drives more aggressively than EPA, so say 17 mpg. That same $53 will do 323 miles. Slightly longer range than what a Taycan did with electricity. If one looks at things that way, pricing for the charger is about on par cost wise as compared to normal cars. 

As for the Tesla charger thing, one moment they are free another they are not. then free again and maybe not for all models, or oh wait Elon thinks it should be all models again.

Regardless, nothing is free, the cost of using those are baked into the price of the car. The ones that's not using Supercharger are subsidizing those that use it. Since they all paid for it already. 

In Germany, Porsche seems to offer some sort of two years deal, you pay over 100 EUR (150 or so, I don't remember) per year, you get a card and with this card, you can charge your Taycan at specific chargers (fast ones) for 9 EUR per full charge (or was it 17?...I don't really remember anymore ). Anyhow, it is much cheaper than usually, really worth it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

In Germany, Porsche seems to offer some sort of two years deal, you pay over 100 EUR (150 or so, I don't remember) per year, you get a card and with this card, you can charge your Taycan at specific chargers (fast ones) for 9 EUR per full charge (or was it 17?...I don't really remember anymore ). Anyhow, it is much cheaper than usually, really worth it.

This is the kind of incentive they are offering in this crashed market

A card for EV car with cheaper charging....

Arrogance as its best...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

RC:

In Germany, Porsche seems to offer some sort of two years deal, you pay over 100 EUR (150 or so, I don't remember) per year, you get a card and with this card, you can charge your Taycan at specific chargers (fast ones) for 9 EUR per full charge (or was it 17?...I don't really remember anymore ). Anyhow, it is much cheaper than usually, really worth it.

This is the kind of incentive they are offering in this crashed market

A card for EV car with cheaper charging....

Arrogance as its best...

This was before the whole Corona crisis started, so maybe they have better offers now. 

Will take a look at current lease offers today, I am curious. I wouldn't say no to a Taycan Turbo S for 999 EUR per month.   (not going to happen, I know).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Whoopsy:

$53 for 68kWh charge, that's about 3/4 'tank' of charge.

With California gas pricing at ~$2.8 a gallon, that's almost 19 gallons of fuel for $53.

Say take a Panamera Turbo, not hybrid,  as comparison, it does 18 in city and 25 highway, 21 combined. Let's use the combined figure, then say someone drives more aggressively than EPA, so say 17 mpg. That same $53 will do 323 miles. Slightly longer range than what a Taycan did with electricity. If one looks at things that way, pricing for the charger is about on par cost wise as compared to normal cars. 

 

As for the Tesla charger thing, one moment they are free another they are not. then free again and maybe not for all models, or oh wait Elon thinks it should be all models again.

Regardless, nothing is free, the cost of using those are baked into the price of the car. The ones that's not using Supercharger are subsidizing those that use it. Since they all paid for it already. 

I’m still not understanding why you compare electricity with gas. With gas you don’t have the option to go home and charge. This is the big difference. Hence it makes little sense to compare with gasoline prices. It makes more sense to compare with home electric costs.  You don’t have a hose with gas in it at home for 5% of the cost.  And plugging in at home is pretty darn convenient too. 

To put it another way - 95% of the time you will be charging at home and never need superchargers.  Perhaps this is why they cost so much - nobody in their right minds will use them if they have electricity at home.  
Im not certain what you mean about the free charging for x and S.  If you get one listed as free to supercharge (correct, some missed out)  then it gets free charging for life.  That is pretty simple to understand.  If that is baked into the price then that is pretty awesome given the price.  What would Porsche charge to bake in free supercharging?  One million dollars?  Lol  

On a similar cost per mile note; oil prices were negative yesterday.  A hard concept to understand, as it relates to WTI futures prices and the production system having no place to store its oil production.  I'm pretty certain it won't translate into my local Esso dealer whereby he pays me to fill up my car.  

2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

$53 for 68kWh charge, that's about 3/4 'tank' of charge.

With California gas pricing at ~$2.8 a gallon, that's almost 19 gallons of fuel for $53.

Say take a Panamera Turbo, not hybrid,  as comparison, it does 18 in city and 25 highway, 21 combined. Let's use the combined figure, then say someone drives more aggressively than EPA, so say 17 mpg. That same $53 will do 323 miles. Slightly longer range than what a Taycan did with electricity. If one looks at things that way, pricing for the charger is about on par cost wise as compared to normal cars. 

 

As for the Tesla charger thing, one moment they are free another they are not. then free again and maybe not for all models, or oh wait Elon thinks it should be all models again.

Regardless, nothing is free, the cost of using those are baked into the price of the car. The ones that's not using Supercharger are subsidizing those that use it. Since they all paid for it already. 

I’m still not understanding why you compare electricity with gas. With gas you don’t have the option to go home and charge. This is the big difference. Hence it makes little sense to compare with gasoline prices. It makes more sense to compare with home electric costs.  You don’t have a hose with gas in it at home for 5% of the cost.  And plugging in at home is pretty darn convenient too. 

To put it another way - 95% of the time you will be charging at home and never need superchargers.  Perhaps this is why they cost so much - nobody in their right minds will use them if they have electricity at home.  
Im not certain what you mean about the free charging for x and S.  If you get one listed as free to supercharge (correct, some missed out)  then it gets free charging for life.  That is pretty simple to understand.  If that is baked into the price then that is pretty awesome given the price.  What would Porsche charge to bake in free supercharging?  One million dollars?  Lol  

 

You are getting stuck on the fact that you can charge at home. 

Many potential buyers cannot do that. They don't even have a garage to park the car, have to be street parking. Are these people not potential EV customers? Or you are already writing them off. 

See the bigger picture. Don't just use detached house owners, they have their own garage and can install home charger. Many many more don't.

For people living in apartments, condos or locations where they have to park on the street, if they convert and buy a EV, they will need the EV to be like a normal car. Head to a convenient charging location to 'fill-up', and at a comparable cost to normal car. Now if a EV indeed is comparable to a normal car for them, then they could in fact be another further EV owner. 

This is WHY the need to compare gas and electric will always be the forefront. This is about growing the EV market as a whole, and not dissing the EV side of the car market. 

4trac:

On a similar cost per mile note; oil prices were negative yesterday.  A hard concept to understand, as it relates to WTI futures prices and the production system having no place to store its oil production.  I'm pretty certain it won't translate into my local Esso dealer whereby he pays me to fill up my car.  

Now if someone is determined, they could have 'bought' some contracts, pocket the money and re-sale the oil at a high discount to market price on delivery. Those are May delivery contracts, so still got a few days left to sort out delivery.

They just need to compete on price with crude already stored somewhere, and they have the price advantage. 

Whoopsy:

4trac:

On a similar cost per mile note; oil prices were negative yesterday.  A hard concept to understand, as it relates to WTI futures prices and the production system having no place to store its oil production.  I'm pretty certain it won't translate into my local Esso dealer whereby he pays me to fill up my car.  

 

Now if someone is determined, they could have 'bought' some contracts, pocket the money and re-sale the oil at a high discount to market price on delivery. Those are May delivery contracts, so still got a few days left to sort out delivery.

They just need to compete on price with crude already stored somewhere, and they have the price advantage. 

 

You will have another chance. Looks like it is going to be a rodeo again in May...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

$53 for 68kWh charge, that's about 3/4 'tank' of charge.

With California gas pricing at ~$2.8 a gallon, that's almost 19 gallons of fuel for $53.

Say take a Panamera Turbo, not hybrid,  as comparison, it does 18 in city and 25 highway, 21 combined. Let's use the combined figure, then say someone drives more aggressively than EPA, so say 17 mpg. That same $53 will do 323 miles. Slightly longer range than what a Taycan did with electricity. If one looks at things that way, pricing for the charger is about on par cost wise as compared to normal cars. 

 

As for the Tesla charger thing, one moment they are free another they are not. then free again and maybe not for all models, or oh wait Elon thinks it should be all models again.

Regardless, nothing is free, the cost of using those are baked into the price of the car. The ones that's not using Supercharger are subsidizing those that use it. Since they all paid for it already. 

I’m still not understanding why you compare electricity with gas. With gas you don’t have the option to go home and charge. This is the big difference. Hence it makes little sense to compare with gasoline prices. It makes more sense to compare with home electric costs.  You don’t have a hose with gas in it at home for 5% of the cost.  And plugging in at home is pretty darn convenient too. 

To put it another way - 95% of the time you will be charging at home and never need superchargers.  Perhaps this is why they cost so much - nobody in their right minds will use them if they have electricity at home.  
Im not certain what you mean about the free charging for x and S.  If you get one listed as free to supercharge (correct, some missed out)  then it gets free charging for life.  That is pretty simple to understand.  If that is baked into the price then that is pretty awesome given the price.  What would Porsche charge to bake in free supercharging?  One million dollars?  Lol  

 

 

You are getting stuck on the fact that you can charge at home. 

Many potential buyers cannot do that. They don't even have a garage to park the car, have to be street parking. Are these people not potential EV customers? Or you are already writing them off. 

See the bigger picture. Don't just use detached house owners, they have their own garage and can install home charger. Many many more don't.

For people living in apartments, condos or locations where they have to park on the street, if they convert and buy a EV, they will need the EV to be like a normal car. Head to a convenient charging location to 'fill-up', and at a comparable cost to normal car. Now if a EV indeed is comparable to a normal car for them, then they could in fact be another further EV owner. 

This is WHY the need to compare gas and electric will always be the forefront. This is about growing the EV market as a whole, and not dissing the EV side of the car market. 

So the expensive superchargers are just for EV owners who can’t charge at home (minority at this point)?. Still seems pretty shortsighted business model.  It is also highly likely that everyone who currently has a car and an apartment with some type of parking will have charging.  They have electricity in their apartment, lol.  VTOG will make this even more likely. I get that this will not all be available overnight but the future is pretty clear. Electricity is far more simple to get to than gas stations. Writing is on the wall.  Self driving and car sharing all figure in as well. Do you really think the average apartment dweller will not have a place to park and charge their electric car at the same rate as their TV and toaster?  
In 5 years? 10 years? Does the stock market care about 20 years if the direction is clear?

All new built have provisions already for electrical outlets, but that's the minority. Major of buildings don't. Some might be doing retrofits, but there will be resistance within the strata for the expense. 

As for electricity is easy to get than gas, yes and no. 110V is easy and everywhere, but not 240V, unlike in Europe where every plug is 240V. Easy to hook up 240V in a detached house, not so easy with common parking, or street parking.

You know how painful it is to charge a EV via 110V. But gas stations are EVERYWHERE, you can find 4 of them in a intersection. 

Stop arguing for argument sake. I am not against adoption of EV. I am just stating the barriers currently present. The situation will improve gradually with time, but not in a short time. People aren't not going to tear down 30 year old apartment buildings just to rebuilt them to modern standard for EV provisioning. 

You and I and a few others are the lucky ones to be able to plug in the cars at home, majority don't or can't. 

Also, just calculate the current draw say in a medium sized complex with say 100 units. if every one of them converted to EV from normal cars and all plugged in at night, they all expect to have the car fully charged in the morning to go to work. That's 30A-40A each car at 240V, times 100 gets you 3000A-4000A at 240V. That's 1 MW of power needed at night, on top of the electric draw of 100 household units. Give it a 50% safety margin and that means the building will need a 1.5MW transformer installed just for the EVs. The math is easy to do. 

About 77% of the US population live in houses. EV sales have barely scratched the surface.

Completely agree about apartment dwellers; and I don't think electric will compete with petrol in many respects for decades to come. The quick fill is just going to remain an advantage of petrol. The 'fill at home' will remain an advantage of electric (and compressed natural gas for those who have gone that route).

Gladstone:

About 77% of the US population live in houses. EV sales have barely scratched the surface.

Completely agree about apartment dwellers; and I don't think electric will compete with petrol in many respects for decades to come. The quick fill is just going to remain an advantage of petrol. The 'fill at home' will remain an advantage of electric (and compressed natural gas for those who have gone that route).

We will not have enough batteries for a decade or so to satisfy all those who can charge at home.  By then apartments will have evolved enough to keep demand through the roof. 
Back to the point. The non Tesla charging stations are marking up the power they peddle tremendously - to favor gas powered cars and their pockets. No doubt they are sponsored by ICE manufacturing companies who have no rush in mind for EV. This also explains why most Tesla’s charge free or much cheaper.  The average gas station has far more worries and marks up the gas only a few percent (5% at most).  The totally free charging stations in malls offered by the local power company are also going away. Though not as expensive they are still double or triple what home charging cost. 
And yes - vehicle to grid tech is the next step to power all of us and save costs during peaks. It will make for a much more decentralized, efficient and robust grid. The more EVs with big batteries better.  On average they will only charge 30 or so miles per night not the giant load people imagine.  Not arguing just directing the discussion back to where it started not current apartment infrastructure. 

The first Porsche special lease offer is out for the Taycan 4S (only) in Germany: 36 months, 10k km per year, 1600 EUR per month incl. 19% VAT. Not really a bargain if you ask me but maybe this is just the beginning.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

The first Porsche special lease offer is out for the Taycan 4S (only) in Germany: 36 months, 10k km per year, 1600 EUR per month incl. 19% VAT. Not really a bargain if you ask me but maybe this is just the beginning.

with a base price of 106KE, this is 50% repayment. indeed, not a bargain.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Pass...

the-missile:

RC:

The first Porsche special lease offer is out for the Taycan 4S (only) in Germany: 36 months, 10k km per year, 1600 EUR per month incl. 19% VAT. Not really a bargain if you ask me but maybe this is just the beginning.

with a base price of 106KE, this is 50% repayment. indeed, not a bargain.

I'm not sure (yet) if the above offer includes some options already or not. Also, I am pretty sure that the offer is negotiable. True though, bargains look different. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Offers are always negotiable...

10k km per year limit for a DD lease sounds a bit strange.

997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 

spudgun:

10k km per year limit for a DD lease sounds a bit strange.

it is EV, your daily range is short anyway

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014