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    Dec 27, 2002 11:23:32 AM

    zzbobaA
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    LUIGI, please help

    luigi,

    as you may know i decided to go for the next modena quite some time ago.

    after your post with the rumoured specs about the challenge stradale, i have difficulties getting to sleep

    and when... i am dreaming of plastic windows, stripped out carbonfibre interior, lightweight, limited production etc...

    i am seriously thinking about changing my order, but i have some doubts -- i fear that i love the 420's (or whatever they gonna call it) design and performance specs so much that i regret going for the 360CS. on the other hand, this model seems to be so special, a kind of a car for a lifetime, to collect, to love -- i am really schizoid.

    please help -- why did you decide for the CS (it even isn't a bargain like the old GT3 was)? aren't you afraid that the 420 gets the rumoured 450-460 HP and might be even fast on the track?

    the clock is ticking... and i have no clue...

    regards; zz



    PS. hope you all had a nice christmas!! i am happy to be back online

    Dec 27, 2002 12:53:42 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    One thing is for sure...

    ... the Stradale will arrive much earlier than the "new" Modena.

    Two dealers confirmed to me that they still have no clue when the "new" Modena will be introduced. The consensus forecast seems to be sometime in 2004. In contrast, the Stradale will be available next summer

    Dec 27, 2002 3:19:42 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: that's a point

    ...but i feel impossible to make such a decision based on my impatience -- and like enzo ferrari once said: the ferrari he loves most is always the "next one".

    i don't think as well that we'll see the next modena before 2004. the challenge stradale is IMO ferraris 2003 answer to the V10 lambo and in 2004 they will fight back in a big way.

    my heart shouts "stradale", my mind says: wait for the next modena. actually, it whispers "get a merc CDI" -- but i do not hear that

    Dec 27, 2002 3:52:24 PM

    spyderman
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    Re: that's a point

    I hope Ferrari considers Lambo's new baby bull a real threat, V10 with 500 hp with 370lbs of torque and weight rumored at 3100 lbs Maybe Ferrari will increace the 420 Modena's HP a little higher then the rumored 460 hp? I for one hope they do!!

    Dec 27, 2002 4:15:16 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: spyderman

    460 would be plenty if they can reduce the weight to 2,900

    Dec 27, 2002 4:59:47 PM

    Rossi
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    Re: LUIGI, please help

    F360 Challenge Stradale or F360 successor? Difficult question that really is. IMO the decision is depending upon your personal preferences: even if the Stradale will be road legal, it is a race car, designed for the track and usable for the road. Even more race car than a Porsche GT3. I expect it to be a rough car, with stripped out interior and a low and harsh ride (as Luigi confirms). So if you are looking for that, it would be the perfect car.
    The successor of the 360 will be of course the more comfortable and luxurious car. Ferrari will continue its strategy, producing easy-to-drive sportcars for everyday use (both, 8 and 12 cylinders).
    Three points that I think are crucial and speak more for the next generation Modena than for a Challenge Stradale, should not be forgotten:
    1) The successor could have a better styling than the 360. Of course this is very subjective and depending on everyone's personal taste
    2) The new Modena will get the new V8, currently used in the Maserati. This engine will have much lower servicing costs than the old V8.
    3) As Ferrari can't ignore the almost ridiculous power explosion of the last two years, I'll expect a car with at least 460 hp. Even more when a small Lamborghini with 500 hp will be launched. That lack in hp would be acceptable. The next Maranello will produce about 580 hp, so the distance between Modena and Maranello will be preserved.

    Greetings

    Dec 30, 2002 2:32:58 PM

    f550lm
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    Re: LUIGI, please help

    zzboba,

    I have little doubt that the 360's replacement will be nowehere near as focussed a driving machine as the stradale... why should it be? Looking at Ferraris current trend for making their cars more driveable and comfortable (and with the massive cock-up they made with the EARLY 575Ms - ) softer, I'm not sure whether the two concepts deserve to be compared?
    I would go for the Stradale... but then I like extreme....

    Incidentally this new Lambo - with 500+hp will be quicker than the Murcielago - why would Lamborghini destroy sales of their V12 model with a quicker V8? Answer: they wouldn't! I think the new Lambos stats are being overestimated by bullsh!t talking journos...(journos talk soooooo much nonsense).

    Regards

    Manu

    Jan 3, 2003 12:50:59 AM

    LG1
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: LUIGI, please help

    zzboba,
    first of all sorry for taking so long to answer your post but I just returned from a skiing trip in the swiss alps.

    The Stradale is going to be basically a race car for the road.
    A lot more extreme than say a GT3 Clubsport or a GT2.
    As a pure driver's tool there will be no competition, it will be a really sharp tool basically for the track and secondly for the road not vice versa.

    It certainly is not Ferrari's answer to the baby Lambo, which will be a very powerful and quick GT/sport car.

    The trade off for all this dynamic and performance focus is that it will loose all of the Modena's GT abilities: it will be very hard, low, noisy etc...

    So basically you are either sure that the right car for you is the Stradale or it positively is not!

    If you have any more question fire away, I know you have to make a choice now, but what I want you to understand is that there actually is no choice to be made...

    Jan 3, 2003 9:42:25 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: LG1

    Re: thank you all...

    ...for your replies! it really helped me in my decision staying with my order for the next regular modena. although i already know that it'll hurt when i see the first pics of the extreme stradale, it surely is the wrong car for me-- neither am i a collector or a trackday regular. just an enthusiasts who also wants to drive on boulevards and to my offices sometimes.

    there's also one other point: it'll be my first ever ferrari -- so i want it to come with the classic "clack clack" open gate stick shift, a ferrari trademark i admire since my childhood (F1 tranny is standard on the stradale).

    once again, thank you all for your opinions/recommendations!

    regards; zz

    Jan 3, 2003 2:31:00 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    I understand!

    When (if) I ever get a Ferrari, I want to have the classic shifter also. I was lucky enough to drive 2 Ferraris in my life so far (1971 365GTB/4 Daytona with 12k miles and F355) and the manual gated shifter was a big part of the thrill during both experiences

    Jan 3, 2003 2:45:07 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: LG1

    Re: baby lambo

    In reply to:
    It certainly is not Ferrari's answer to the baby Lambo, which will be a very powerful and quick GT/sport car.



    i know-- but IMO ferrari's intention with the stradale might be to "steal" some media attention from the lambo until the successor arrives.

    btw: i am wondering about the stradale production number. 1,000 seems quite a lot, having in mind that ferrari produces only 4,000 vehicles/year.

    regards; zz

    Jan 3, 2003 2:51:01 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: I understand!

    in a recent UK mag (can't remember which, though) someone stated, that ferrari's open gate shift stick is like a beautiful classic watch. it was also added that "lottery winners would go for the F1" (which IMO is a bit rude)

    regards; zz

    Jan 3, 2003 8:07:59 PM

    LG1
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: I understand!

    What I was told is around 1000 units, but production will probably last 2 model years (my own supposition) since a replacement for the Modena will probably come in end 2004 as a MY 2005.
    So a figure of 400-500 cars a year is not at all high in my book.
    Remember that they are making 399 Enzos...

    And since we talk about the Enzo: even though I doubted it at first, the Stradale might also be imported to the US even though it is such an extreme car, after all if they are able to import the Enzo, why not the Stradale?! (just my thoughts and speculation, no confirmed info on this matter)

    zzboba, you are right, as far as media coverage, an extreme model such as the Stradale could steel some of the glow from the Gallardo.But what I was told is that the reason for the introduction of the 360 CS was customer driven, some customers racing in the Challenge series insistently asked for something similar to their race cars that they could also use on the road.This is the explanation that has officially been given.

    Jan 3, 2003 8:15:25 PM

    LG1
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    Re: I understand!

    I too prefer the gated shifter to the F1 tranny, and my purchase confirms it.
    But the F1 system is still developing in every new iteration, the system on the Enzo is supposed to be extremely good, and I know from my own experience that the one on the Challenge cars is far better than the road car's, at detriment of the comfort of use though!(It basically is a real kick in the a..!).
    I suspect that the version on the Stradale will be something similar to the Challenge version, an update of the Enzo's.Given the character of the car I think this could well be a pleasent surprise...

    Jan 3, 2003 11:09:53 PM

    spyderman
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    Reply to: f550lm

    Re: LUIGI, please help

    Statement from f550lm: "Incidentally this new Lambo - with 500+hp will be quicker than the Murcielago - why would Lamborghini destroy sales of their V12 model with a quicker V8? Answer: they wouldn't! I think the new Lambos stats are being overestimated by bullsh!t talking journos...(journos talk soooooo much nonsense)."


    I do not see why the new Gallardo wouldn't be quicker then the Murcielago (from 0 to 130 mph and track times) 500HP and 3100 LBS makes a pretty convincing argument!! IMO they are two different cars, the Gallardo is Lambo's sports car and the Murcielago is their GT car.

    You can also ask why did Ferrari make the 360 Modena quicker and the 550?? Again, it does not matter because they are two different cars, ones a sports car and the other is Ferrari's GT car.

    Note: there is rumor that Lambo will also add a little more HP to the Murcielago when the Gallardo is introduced next fall.

    Jan 4, 2003 9:28:37 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    I really like the comparision...

    ...between Ferrari's open gate shifter and classic watches!

    Jan 6, 2003 12:40:56 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: LG1

    Re: I understand!

    In reply to:
    But what I was told is that the reason for the introduction of the 360 CS was customer driven, some customers racing in the Challenge series insistently asked for something similar to their race cars that they could also use on the road.This is the explanation that has officially been given.



    yeah i can imagine that! IMO bringing the extreme challenge stradale is a wise move of ferrari -- in a time where nearly all vehicles are powerful and fast, even easy to drive, ferrari is going back to their roots: building extreme sports cars. reduced, focussed, lightweight, without gimmicks, emotional. back to basic. brilliant.

    IMO it's also kind of a modern ferrari "tradition" to bring out a special edition shortly before a new model arrives. they did that with the 550 barchetta, where i slightly got the feeling that it helped selling the aging 550 stock.

    Jan 6, 2003 1:08:14 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: LG1

    Luigi...

    How do you compare your 360 to the 996 in terms of electrical and built quality?
    I know, I have asked a similar question before, sorry...
    What I mean, is for example, how good is the stereo, the air con system, the quality of the switches, etc. etc. etc.
    I heard the aircon can be faulty, and that the fuel gauge is rubish and also that the windows don't always work.
    True or BS?
    Thanks,
    Francois.

    Jan 6, 2003 1:46:07 PM

    LG1
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: I understand!

    In reply to:
    in a time where nearly all vehicles are powerful and fast, even easy to drive, ferrari is going back to their roots: building extreme sports cars. reduced, focussed, lightweight, without gimmicks, emotional. back to basic. brilliant.




    That's exactly how I see it zzboba!
    With this model Ferrari is going back to the purest idea of a sports car, an idea that in my opinion has been diluted so much in recent years, that now is almost untrackable in some of the so called sport cars.
    I remember when I was very young, when my intoxication with sport cars started, I lusted after the 512BB, the legendary and challenging 911, the Countach etc.Then, I was fortunate enough to be able to drive a Testarossa when I was just 18, and that was it: the car was brutal, it was difficult for me to even get off the line, the sound was monumental, you sit low right on the tarmac!Even though we all know that the Testarossa wasn't the fastest or best handling car, it was an event to drive , you really felt you were driving something special, something that not everybody would've been able to drive.
    I feel that due to legislation and regulations, and also due to the perception that this trend is welcomed by the customers, the number of real sport cars has dropped to almost zero.The modern sport cars are almost all nothing more than Grand Tourers which are absurdly fast and are able to cope with the demands of twisty roads extremely well, but don't feel and are not sport cars that stir your emotions!
    I 'm not so sure if I were a kid right now, that my passion for sport cars would grow as strong as it did at the time.I highly doubt it.

    Jan 6, 2003 5:50:19 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: I understand!

    luigi, you've hit the spot!

    countach, testarossa, 512BB have been the poster cars of a generation. probably our generation i remember when i saw "cannonball run" at the movies with the two girls in the countach. whoooo -- it's pretty cool driving around in a testarossa at the age of 18 btw, i always thought that i was lucky because my first car was a merc 200 (W123)

    back to the power topic: maybe i am wrong -- i spot a little turnaround. the lust for power and over the top tech goodies can't go on forever, i know someone who owns a SL55 he seems already bored to death with his car. he can outperform anyone, he may even fly to the moon with this disguised space shuttle -- but who cares really?

    (i'm bored in my 996 C2 as well, and i can't even outperform a S 600 )

    as far as i am informed, TVR's are selling better than ever, BMW is building the M3 CSL, the NSX type R received raved reviews (e.g. evo magazine car of the year). not to mention exotics like the pagani zonda or the enzo -- the masses are still going for the big and powerful and full of electronic cars, but there's a stronger demand for the reduced, the emotional experience by a fine target audience.

    Jan 6, 2003 6:03:12 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: I understand!

    Do you think the GT3 will be extreme enough to qualify as a pure sports car or do you think there's too much of the grand tourer element from the basic 996 remaining?

    Jan 6, 2003 6:15:20 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: I understand!

    i personally think so, a definite YES. the pre-facelift GT3 is an awesome, extreme and thrilling car, IMO the best 996. and i see no reason why the new GT3 should be less good.

    on the technical side, the "old" GT3 had not much in common with the ordinary 996 anyway (let alone the body of course ). completely different engine and highly modified chassis.

    Jan 7, 2003 2:04:30 AM

    LG1
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    Re: I understand!

    Actually the testarossa was not my car, it was my father's and he rarely let me drive it(but I can still remember each time he did like it was yesterday ).My first car was a Fiat Uno .
    zzboba, let me tell you this: man are you going to love your Ferrari! Seriously !

    Grant: I too think that the pre facelift GT3 was a blast, probably the best 996 (esp. the Clubsport version) and it sure qualifies as a pure sports car in the sense we are talking here.
    The only criticism I have concerning the GT3 is that it shouldn't have been heavier than the std Carrera 2.That said it is a superb car with lots of soul !
    I'm sure the new one will be awesome, I just hope it doesn't get too heavy in order to make it to the US, that would be a shame.
    BTW did you order the normal or clubsport version?

    Jan 7, 2003 3:09:44 AM

    Grant
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    Luigi - I haven't been able to specify options on GT3 yet...

    but I would love a CS with cloth interior and no Aircon. However, it's possible that the US won't allow the rollcage and the GT3 seats for "safety" regulations. Were there any other differences for the CS (besides fire extinguisher and single-plate clutch)?

    BTW, I've heard rumors of 2,900 lbs weight which is less than the last GT3 (don't know if it's true though)

    Jan 8, 2003 11:16:00 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: I understand!

    i agree, the GT3 is a little bit too heavy. porsche could have done more in this field, e.g. stripping out more and/or replacing some parts of the body with exotic materials (but so the original GT3 was quite a bargain -- priced nearly the same like an ordinary C2 with aerokit, 18" sportdesign alloys and powerkit)
    i have my doubts that the next GT3 will be a lot lighter. the car will hit the US market and US safety regulations should make it even worse.

    luigi, i feel like a kid before christmas. and it's still so far away...

    Jan 8, 2003 11:22:25 AM

    LG1
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    Re: I understand!

     
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