Crown

MKSGR:

Carlos from Spain:

Personally, the fact that SA accepted a rigged test test car with extra horsepower and cheating non production tires, and god knows what else it had in the setup, and did the test anyway and published the results like if it was a normal test (99% of people dont read the fine print after the fact)  reflects very poorly on SA and are basically necesary and knowing collaborators in this stunt by AMG.

What SA should have done is rejected the car and demand a normal spec car with normal cups2 tires and production setup, and then do the test. I dont trust SA anymore... They sold out.

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 

I fully agree. Alternatively, they could have revealed the full story at the beginning. But then AMG marketing would not have been happy.

Amen !

Maybe Kreso can ask a question on behalf of RT of how SA feels now after this.

What will they write when a customer GT3 with same tires will beat a customer GTR ???? (despite 100 HP less and less torque ?) Or a "old" Turbo S on latest Pirelli's ?

MKSGR:

noone1:

Not with the "fast tire package" it isn't.

You should read the test (also AutoBild Sportscars). You need several laps on the track to make them usable and then they last for 3-5 rounds and are finished. This is nothing anybody will use (I already summarized on oricing and the other effort needed to get them onto your car). This is just a tool to create a nice sales pitch for the car. The car itself is pretty much average (compared to its competitors) as it turns out now.

Same goes for most track tires. They need to be warmed up to optimal temps then they fall off after a few laps. No tires provide the exact same performance for a full day.

It is all so fishy and it does nothing to benefit Sportauto.
I understand that magazines need to sell and that decisions are driven by that. There are magazines who's sole raison d'etre is the stories they have, regardless whether they are true, fake or something in between.
However, other magazines solely exist because they convey the message of writing honest comparisons, trying to get as much data as possible, compare it in an honest way, etc.

The hurt does not come from the fact that a mercedes beat a porsche. The hurt comes from the fact that this was a more or less trusted magazine which now turns out to have cooperated with a manufacturer to publish a non-honest review, hiding the truth from the viewer.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

noone1:

MKSGR:

noone1:

Not with the "fast tire package" it isn't.

You should read the test (also AutoBild Sportscars). You need several laps on the track to make them usable and then they last for 3-5 rounds and are finished. This is nothing anybody will use (I already summarized on oricing and the other effort needed to get them onto your car). This is just a tool to create a nice sales pitch for the car. The car itself is pretty much average (compared to its competitors) as it turns out now.

Same goes for most track tires. They need to be warmed up to optimal temps then they fall off after a few laps. No tires provide the exact same performance for a full day.

No, completely different from normal track tires - if you cool them down they can produce excellent results again. 

MKSGR:

Josef:

A 1:07.4 is not slow with the normal Cup tires. Nobody knows the NBR time with these tires. In addition, I guess the Crosa tire of the Porsche is also very new and seems to be exceptionally fast. Otherwise, Porsche would not have switched from Michelin to Pirelli.

The GTR is at least as fast or faster as a GT3 RS (without the special tires). We all knew from the beginning that the incredibly fast NBR time is due to special tire which was mentioned in the SA back then.

The 991 GTS on the new Corsas does 1.08 on the HHR with approx 150 hp less than the GTR. Just imagine what will happen if the new Corsa will be used on a turbo, not to speak of the Gt2Rs with about 200hp more... This is the franework the GTr needs to be compared with (based on AMG's own marketing, where they want to compare with the very best).

Well then you might as well put new generation tires on every old car and re-test them all. The point is that the GTR can do X time with standard options. It is what it is. What's the point in comparing it to cars who don't have the tire options available? If you can't get a 911 with special Cup2, you're SOL.

Joost:

It is all so fishy and it does nothing to benefit Sportauto.
I understand that magazines need to sell and that decisions are driven by that. There are magazines who's sole raison d'etre is the stories they have, regardless whether they are true, fake or something in between.
However, other magazines solely exist because they convey the message of writing honest comparisons, trying to get as much data as possible, compare it in an honest way, etc.

The hurt does not come from the fact that a mercedes beat a porsche. The hurt comes from the fact that this was a more or less trusted magazine which now turns out to have cooperated with a manufacturer to publish a non-honest review, hiding the truth from the viewer.

I fully agree. At least they should have shown the hp test results, acceleration data and - most importantly - track times with different tires the first time they launched their AMG sales pitch. Then the reader could have made up his own view. Story line, however, would then have been: the tires are what matters and not the car. Also, doubt would have remained on how much hp customer cars eill have and if they are even slower.

noone1:

MKSGR:

Josef:

A 1:07.4 is not slow with the normal Cup tires. Nobody knows the NBR time with these tires. In addition, I guess the Crosa tire of the Porsche is also very new and seems to be exceptionally fast. Otherwise, Porsche would not have switched from Michelin to Pirelli.

The GTR is at least as fast or faster as a GT3 RS (without the special tires). We all knew from the beginning that the incredibly fast NBR time is due to special tire which was mentioned in the SA back then.

The 991 GTS on the new Corsas does 1.08 on the HHR with approx 150 hp less than the GTR. Just imagine what will happen if the new Corsa will be used on a turbo, not to speak of the Gt2Rs with about 200hp more... This is the franework the GTr needs to be compared with (based on AMG's own marketing, where they want to compare with the very best).

Well then you might as well put new generation tires on every old car and re-test them all. The point is that the GTR can do X time with standard options. It is what it is. What's the point in comparing it to cars who don't have the tire options available? If you can't get a 911 with special Cup2, you're SOL.

I agree - but that is the opposite of what Sportauto did. With recent tires all cars seem to be much wuicker (we mentioned the 991 GTS as another example). That is: the GTR test is meaningless in the sense that you cannot compare the outcome with earlier tests of other cars (because of the recent improvement in tire performance). Sportauto tried to sell a different story though - and I am sure they did this knowing they where cheating their readers.

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

KresoF1:

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

Of course, I do not know - however, 0-200 of the 991 GTS was in line with factory claim. Therefore, it seens unlikely there was too much power in the test car...

Markus,

Factory claim is 12.4s and usually very conservative SA(they almost never meet factory acceleration claims) achieved 11.9s.... 

MKSGR:

KresoF1:

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

Of course, I do not know - however, 0-200 of the 991 GTS was in line with factory claim. Therefore, it seens unlikely there was too much power in the test car...

Kreso, your are right - the GTS is faster than factory claim by about 1s. So maybe it also had too mich power, same as the GTR. But still, we are comparing two cars then with higher hp output than on customer cars. All the above makes sense then...

It just Shows one Thing and that is that you cannot compare latest tiretechnology to old times.....and call a car faster

I'm telling you guys, it's all in the tires and manufacturers are lucky that magazines aren't going back and re-testing old cars on the new tires. People would be realizing that they get 95% of the performance of the new model just from putting on better tires.

Companies were using the old Pzeros for ages. Pretty much any car prior to 2016 will see a very significant improvement in track performance with new tires, perhaps so much that you wouldn't find the new cars nearly as impressive.

Imagine putting an Enzo or CGT on Trofeos or these new Cup2s...

totally agree  the differences between new and old would be much smaller

KresoF1:

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

that is the whole Point of having a Magazin that actually will Level this out by taking a GT3RS or GT3 for example and use the exact same tire at the same day  - why are they not doing this ? Fear of less advertisment / press cars ?

noone1:

I'm telling you guys, it's all in the tires and manufacturers are lucky that magazines aren't going back and re-testing old cars on the new tires. People would be realizing that they get 95% of the performance of the new model just from putting on better tires.

Companies were using the old Pzeros for ages. Pretty much any car prior to 2016 will see a very significant improvement in track performance with new tires, perhaps so much that you wouldn't find the new cars nearly as impressive.

Imagine putting an Enzo or CGT on Trofeos or these new Cup2s...

Fully agree. And the press should tell this story with tests, benchmarks etc. That would be interesting. Also, as a residual, one could get a much clearer picture on which OEMs do great engineering 

Magazines rely on manufacturers to give them cars. Regardless of what the outcome might be or how it would reflect on a manufacturer, they are supplied with cars for free and can at least trust that the cars are in fine working orders.

The only way to do those tests would be to find people to lend the cars, pay for the tires, pay to make sure the cars are in perfect condition, get insurance, etc. It would be difficult and most likely expensive. 

It's just unrealistic. You can wreck a manufacturer car too and they probably won't even car. I think someone wrecked a 570S last year. One guy blasted a curb in a P1 and damaged a wheel. McLaren probably shrugged and just fixed it. Not going to be the case with a customer car. No way I'm letting someone try to set a hot lap on the NR in my car...

BjoernB:

KresoF1:

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

that is the whole Point of having a Magazin that actually will Level this out by taking a GT3RS or GT3 for example and use the exact same tire at the same day  - why are they not doing this ? Fear of less advertisment / press cars ?

What we have now is a messed up credibility of Sportauto. These tests are mostly for the gullible & ignorant fans. On the Internet there seem to be many of them. My impression is, though, that few of them actually buy cars. Most of them are just fans...

next case ; performante "faster than a 918".... (I actually had a Chat with a Weissach employee of why they don't let the 918 run on latest tires for a new time - and he said to expensive to develop (the tire)......)

AutoBILD sportscars was also surprised (they mentioned it in their aticle) that the new GT R  was way faster from 0-200 kph than the 631 hp SLS Black Series they had reviewed a couple of years ago.

I understand why SA did what they did, it was an opportunity to get a pre preduction car for testing. Yes, they should have been a bit less enthusiastic about it but in the second test, they actually did everything right, even if they could have been a bit more critical of the whole product, incl. factory power and tire choices.

Mercedes is a huge advertisement customer and large car company: If they piss them off, they not only loose advertisement money but also test cars. Car magazines are usually at the mercy of car manufacturers when it comes to testcars or even information about future products.

HvS had to go (this is what rumors indicate) because a car manufacturer wasn't happy with the test results he had achieved.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

As I have this car on order for a track day car (dealer cannot confirm delivery...), please show me your source how they are special tires for 4000 EUR? Screen shot of an article or something? Not a deal breaker but that's some really interesting information I haven't heard.

To be honest, I initially thought if I get the car I I would be happy to put some Trofeo R's on, but as the GTR comes with rather unique tire size Pirelli won't start producing the correct size for such a relatively low volume car that will be most often seen at city centers rather than race tracks...

996 Turbo / +150hp & -150kg, 7:15 Nürburgring BTG so far...

Granturismo S MC-Shift / Daily driver with THE sound

Kaizu:

As I have this car on order for a track day car (dealer cannot confirm delivery...), please show me your source how they are special tires for 4000 EUR? Screen shot of an article or something? Not a deal breaker but that's some really interesting information I haven't heard.

To be honest, I initially thought if I get the car I I would be happy to put some Trofeo R's on, but as the GTR comes with rather unique tire size Pirelli won't start producing the correct size for such a relatively low volume car that will be most often seen at city centers rather than race tracks...

You can name the most recent issue of SportAuto as the reference to the dealer. They clearly state this in the article, including "Einzelabnahme" required at the TÜV. Hope this helps 

Kaizu:

As I have this car on order for a track day car (dealer cannot confirm delivery...), please show me your source how they are special tires for 4000 EUR? Screen shot of an article or something? Not a deal breaker but that's some really interesting information I haven't heard.

To be honest, I initially thought if I get the car I I would be happy to put some Trofeo R's on, but as the GTR comes with rather unique tire size Pirelli won't start producing the correct size for such a relatively low volume car that will be most often seen at city centers rather than race tracks...

Dealers in CH quote delivery times as September/October 2017 if ordering now. Not the case in your region?

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad

Guaranteed delivery times? German dealers offered July delivery times a few weeks ago and all these orders have been pushed back to December. Earliest. Maybe just some limited incidents? Maybe.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/mercedes-benz/amg-gt/gt-r-2dr-auto/first-drive

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercars/flat-out-mercedes-amg-gt-r#1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fONQN3zAdPU

MKSGR:

MKSGR:

KresoF1:

Markus,

Let me tell you this-you are walking on very thin ice here to use figurative speech.

So, 991.2 Carrera GTS can do HHR in 1:08,00min on new Corsas without any problem in CG hands?

Really? How much power do this particular example of press GTS really achieve? Isn't it pretty strange that it is faster then 991.1 GT3 RS on HHR? 

I will stop here since I know little bit too much about the subject and not everything I'm this case is black and white. Far, far from it... More shade like Agate Grey if you will understand me...

Of course, I do not know - however, 0-200 of the 991 GTS was in line with factory claim. Therefore, it seens unlikely there was too much power in the test car...

Kreso, your are right - the GTS is faster than factory claim by about 1s. So maybe it also had too mich power, same as the GTR. But still, we are comparing two cars then with higher hp output than on customer cars. All the above makes sense then...

I made a mistake (and look up the acceleration of the manual, not the PDK):

the test car was about .4s quicker 0-160kph only. That is not so much.

US Price was recently announced at $157k...

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi