Crown

W8MM:

I also switched to Pilot Super Sports while trying to improve the CGT’s handling.  They help quite a bit compared to the OEM tires, but do not “transform” the handling characteristics.  I even adjusted the rear anti-roll bar to full soft.  The combo of tires and bar changes picked up 5 seconds per lap on a 1 minute 20 second track, but the car STILL always felt like it was trying to kill me.

In your mind, what was responsible for the unfriendly behavior?  Chassis geometry and kinematics?  Did you mess with alignment?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

As a long time lurker only here, I kind of hate to make a first post of this sort seemingly just to disagree with W8MM who has been a longstanding member and has considerable experience of the car concerned but I feel a bit compelled to chip in with my 2p if I can be forgiven for doing so. 

I think it's certainly fair to say the gt is not an easy car to drive quickly, especially by today's standards of similar to considerably more powerful sports cars - but as a 600+hp car that weighs less than 1500kg with very few electronics that is not unexpected.

Where I unfortunately have to disagree with some of the posts here is that the car is unpredictable or is constantly trying to kill the driver (most of the time anyway). On the old original ps2, the car was a livewire until the tyre was properly hot and that took some time to achieve, especially on the road I agree. Since 2013 when the supersports got N0 stamped, everyone I know who drives the car regularly had switched over asap and mostly on that tyre I think the car has been rock solid and entirely predictable (i have my rear arb on full soft as well). in fairness, I have to add a caveat, a few times in colder weather in the 5th year of the tyres just before I was going to change them due to age anyway, the car then was a lot more like what W8MM described which when it first happened took me very much by surprise, especially as the previous (much warmer) day on track the behaviour was diametrically different. I still don't quite understand why it was the case but can only ascribe it to the chassis being pretty sensitive to tyre grip. Over the winter I did get some of the alignment changed which I think helped but I had only then run the old tyres once more before switching to Cup2s now and they are imo anyway the tyre that the car has always needed. (A friend has a video somewhere comparing 2laps on the new Cup2s and very old SS which I can probably dig up if anyone is a tyre geek). So the discrepancy in behaviour we are finding is somewhat unusual as 2-3 other owners I know who are vastly better drivers than myself are I believe broadly in line with what I think about the car and certainly would not be of the opinion the car on supersports is constantly unpredictable and trying to break the rear loose.

In case one might not unreasonably think I am only talking out of my a**se, this is a pic a friend took of my car when at Silverstone where I thought the clouds looked quite good..

And this was funnily enough my first trackday in the car

Thank you to both W8MM and isv.. for your first hand input. I can only dream of owning and driving such a masterpiece at this point in my career but it is motivation at the very least.

I wonder if the small diameter clutch and extremely low inertia have anything to do with the tendency for the back end to "bite." The car seems to rev so freely and quickly, if you have low tire grip could it be that the engine spins the wheels up so quickly that it is more difficult to control than in a "normal" car?

Grant:

In your mind, what was responsible for the unfriendly behavior?  Chassis geometry and kinematics?  Did you mess with alignment?

I asked Doc Bundy who was one of my instructors at a "Carrera GT Driving Experience" in 2005 at Barber what mods they made to alignment or tire pressures for the track event.  He said that it was absolutely stock factory values, so I never tried anything but rear anti-roll bar changes.  Hurley Heywood was also an instructor at the 2005 Barber event and I made him nervous by trying to drive the CGT like a 911.  He was screaming over the wind and motor noise, "This car has VERY SENSITIVE steering!"  Another of the participants spun in front of Hurley and me cresting up-hill at Turn 4 and I asked for Hurley's opinion of what caused the spin.  His reply was, "He lifted".

I never really got a straight answer about Carrera GT handling from anyone at Porsche, although they agreed it was "challenging" for those drivers not accustomed to its quirks.  There was even a little condescension regarding drivers who might complain about CGT handling quirks as if making it more drivable would spoil all the fun.

I attended the August, 2011 long-lead reveal of the 918 at Weissach where we signed multiple NDAs to find out what was brewing with the development of the 918.  We were allowed to roam around the development shops and interact with VPs of Engineering etc., and I asked lots of questions about areas of improvement over the Carrera GT.

The best explanation I ever heard was the influence of Carrera GT development test drivers.  They mostly had karting backgrounds before joining PAG.  Locked-rear-axle karts don't turn in very well and are driven most quickly by using lots of rear-wagging tricks to kick out the rear end as a way to successfully rotate in corners.  High slip angles at the rear are a kart drivers friend.  Karts are lots more responsive to inputs with low yaw inertia, etc.  If one is used to chucking a kart into corners by flicking out the rear end and correction-steering one's way out of the corner, that goes against my ingrained 911-pilot wiring.  I like a planted rear end because 911s that don't plant the rear end tend to go off the path backwards.

I'm not a professional driver and I grew up tracking 911s.  That may be the primary reason I think the CGT is not good for my health.  However, the 918 is my friend.

--

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Wow guys, this thread is turning into some of the old threads, with really weighed input from people with first hand experience respectfully exchanging PoVs. Thanks so much, love reading this!

isv.., welcome mate, appreciate your contribution. It's striking how extremely good the CGT still looks, especially compared to a lot of the more busy modern car designs. Absolutely in love with it!

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Appreciate all new posts, guys 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

isv..:

As a long time lurker only here, I kind of hate to make a first post of this sort seemingly just to disagree with W8MM who has been a longstanding member and has considerable experience of the car concerned but I feel a bit compelled to chip in with my 2p if I can be forgiven for doing so. 

I think it's certainly fair to say the gt is not an easy car to drive quickly, especially by today's standards of similar to considerably more powerful sports cars - but as a 600+hp car that weighs less than 1500kg with very few electronics that is not unexpected.

Where I unfortunately have to disagree with some of the posts here is that the car is unpredictable or is constantly trying to kill the driver (most of the time anyway). On the old original ps2, the car was a livewire until the tyre was properly hot and that took some time to achieve, especially on the road I agree. Since 2013 when the supersports got N0 stamped, everyone I know who drives the car regularly had switched over asap and mostly on that tyre I think the car has been rock solid and entirely predictable (i have my rear arb on full soft as well). in fairness, I have to add a caveat, a few times in colder weather in the 5th year of the tyres just before I was going to change them due to age anyway, the car then was a lot more like what W8MM described which when it first happened took me very much by surprise, especially as the previous (much warmer) day on track the behaviour was diametrically different. I still don't quite understand why it was the case but can only ascribe it to the chassis being pretty sensitive to tyre grip. Over the winter I did get some of the alignment changed which I think helped but I had only then run the old tyres once more before switching to Cup2s now and they are imo anyway the tyre that the car has always needed. (A friend has a video somewhere comparing 2laps on the new Cup2s and very old SS which I can probably dig up if anyone is a tyre geek). So the discrepancy in behaviour we are finding is somewhat unusual as 2-3 other owners I know who are vastly better drivers than myself are I believe broadly in line with what I think about the car and certainly would not be of the opinion the car on supersports is constantly unpredictable and trying to break the rear loose.

In case one might not unreasonably think I am only talking out of my a**se, this is a pic a friend took of my car when at Silverstone where I thought the clouds looked quite good..

And this was funnily enough my first trackday in the car

 

Thanks for the input, really look forward to read more about the CGT on Cup 2's, not many running them I think. One does wonder what times the CGT would run around the Nürburgring on that tyre, must be a massive improvement...

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker:

Thanks for the input, really look forward to read more about the CGT on Cup 2's, not many running them I think. One does wonder what times the CGT would run around the Nürburgring on that tyre, must be a massive improvement...

The Cup2 tires don't come in the EXACT sizes necessary.  However, the fronts are available and the rears can use 345/30-20 instead of 335/30-20.  I did the same size switch when I first tried SuperSports because 335/30-20 was not originally available.  This helped handling a bit by giving more section width at the rear and the extra circumference corrected the too-optimistic speedometer reading.  A win-win.

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

W8MM:

Porker:

Thanks for the input, really look forward to read more about the CGT on Cup 2's, not many running them I think. One does wonder what times the CGT would run around the Nürburgring on that tyre, must be a massive improvement...

The Cup2 tires don't come in the EXACT sizes necessary.  However, the fronts are available and the rears can use 345/30-20 instead of 335/30-20.  I did the same size switch when I first tried SuperSports because 335/30-20 was not originally available.  This helped handling a bit by giving more section width at the rear and the extra circumference corrected the too-optimistic speedometer reading.  A win-win.

Doesn't it create understeer going wider at the rear but leaving front unchanged?

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Thanks for those great posts about the CGT. It's likely only me, but I learned more about this car than watching a bunch of highly rated  YT vids

If there are any more lurkers of that kind on this forum: please step forward and post. Great stuff ISV...

997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 

Fascinating stuff.. welcome isv.. 

2019 911 GT3 RS,1964 Type 1

Porker:

W8MM:

Porker:

Thanks for the input, really look forward to read more about the CGT on Cup 2's, not many running them I think. One does wonder what times the CGT would run around the Nürburgring on that tyre, must be a massive improvement...

The Cup2 tires don't come in the EXACT sizes necessary.  However, the fronts are available and the rears can use 345/30-20 instead of 335/30-20.  I did the same size switch when I first tried SuperSports because 335/30-20 was not originally available.  This helped handling a bit by giving more section width at the rear and the extra circumference corrected the too-optimistic speedometer reading.  A win-win.

Doesn't it create understeer going wider at the rear but leaving front unchanged?

Which is why it is less of a handful. Dialing in a bit of under steering and adding tire at the rear makes sense if you get snap over steer normally. 
nice thread!  Thanks guys

Welcome isv and thank you for the comments 👍

spudgun:

If there are any more lurkers of that kind on this forum: please step forward and post. Great stuff ISV...

+ 1     Thanks for the first hands posts !

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Really interesting thread, many thanks for your valuable posts! I always loved the CGT

great input

++1

because of this I searched for used ones and I think is completely over rated!
I can only dream to have one but I if I have 500k€ to burn in a car I dont even think twice!
I remenber a few years ago nobody wants a Ferrari F50 and now 

cheers

Maybe I should add that the second founding father of Rennteam, CR, has a Carrera GT as well for many years now and thanks to some lucky circumstances, he is able to drive a 918 too pretty often and his daily driver is a 488 Spider.

His experience with tracks is quite impressive too but like me, he prefers pass roads fun and stuff like that, which is probably less challenging from certain perspectives but definitely more fun and entertaining in my opinion. 

Anyway: He tried many tires and still ended up with the Porsche certified and recommended Super Sport. All other tires he tried were pretty much crap and/or weren't really working well with the car. The only mod he has done regarding the chassis is an alignment adjustment for pass roads driving (which requires a slightly different setup than a track). Not much done here though, just a few minor adjustments. 

He never had the feeling that the CGT wants to kill him but of course, like many cars without ESP, this is a challenging car, especially considering its power output, mid engine design and RWD. If you push it too hard, the car will react and it requires not only skills but also experience with the car to keep it on the road.

I think that many owners enjoy the "the car wants to kill me" myth, because it makes the whole CGT experience a "raw" one, I get it but I think that if you get enough experience with the car and drive a clean line, the car can be very fast. Forgiving is of course a word which doesn't seem to exist in the CGT handling description but I remember how it was when I drove the CGT for the very first time and while I think I remember that I liked it quite a lot, I don't think I would have pushed it too hard because A. it wasn't my car and B. it was new to me. All I can say though is that the behavior is predictable up to some point but then, it feels not that predictable anymore and this is when I stopped. I don't have a clue how far I could have pushed it further and I didn't have the desire to find out as you can imagine.

Still...wonderful car but I would definitely prefer the 918 over it, I guess I really and officially got old.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Still...wonderful car but I would definitely prefer the 918 over it, I guess I really and officially got old.  

and you are just in love with AWD.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

RC:

Still...wonderful car but I would definitely prefer the 918 over it, I guess I really and officially got old.  

and you are just in love with AWD.

That too.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

W8MM - do you mind me asking if your car (absolutely lovely colour btw) had the higher droplinks as I remember being told years ago quite a few US cars had them installed and the resultant rise in ride height had potentially some impact on the handling. 

Porker, as mentioned, cup2s are a bit wider than oem on the rear but the gt has relatively a lot of front grip vs rear for a road car and ime you usually want more rear grip for the car anyway so it's for me anyway absolutely not a problem having fit the wider 345 rear. 

As an aside, if anyone is at all interested, this is the video I mentioned earlier of a friend who took my car out for a few (gentle!) laps and did a comparison video between the 2 laps, one with very old and slightly squirrelly Supersports and the other with newly fitted Cup2s. The difference is quite marked to put it mildly and tbh the lap on the old tyres was already a lot better behaved than one he did the prior year when the car was a bit wayward (v cold wet morning that dried up, car behaviour did improve as it warmed up right at the end of the day)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wbL05JIjAk

P.S i make absolutely no claims about being a good driver or an expert on the gt but I suppose I am a bit of a car geek and have had the car a few years and can remember a fair amount of probably utterly useless info and anecdotes about the car so if anyone has any further questions about it that hasn't already been answered here by others, I might be able to say something of interest i hope...

isv..., 

My car did not have the 10mm height boosters.  It was completely original apart from my adjusting the rear anti-roll bar to full soft.  The color was paint-to-sample Signal Yellow (Porsche old-timer color #114).  Also, special color red brake calipers so as not to clash between two yellows.

I agree that having 345 in back helps and not hurts the handling.

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Mike, is it true the CGT was initially designed by Porsche to be  a race car and not a available for public sale? However, after the car was completed, Porsche pulled the plug on it being a racer and detuned the engine in order to make it available in limited quantities to the public. 

--

Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

W8MM:

The best explanation I ever heard was the influence of Carrera GT development test drivers.  They mostly had karting backgrounds before joining PAG.  Locked-rear-axle karts don't turn in very well and are driven most quickly by using lots of rear-wagging tricks to kick out the rear end as a way to successfully rotate in corners.  High slip angles at the rear are a kart drivers friend.  Karts are lots more responsive to inputs with low yaw inertia, etc.  If one is used to chucking a kart into corners by flicking out the rear end and correction-steering one's way out of the corner, that goes against my ingrained 911-pilot wiring.  I like a planted rear end because 911s that don't plant the rear end tend to go off the path backwards.

I'm not a professional driver and I grew up tracking 911s.  That may be the primary reason I think the CGT is not good for my health.  However, the 918 is my friend.

Mike,

that sounds like a reasonable explanation. I have not driven the CGT so can only guess but considering that a lot of professional drivers praise the sensitivity and character of the cars handling. A road car is usually set up much more forgiving than a race car, while on the CGT the nervous handling traits combined with a "point-of-no-return" when you go over the limit adds up. 

On the other hand the 911 has, as you pointed out, a different handling character and has become more and more forgiving over the course of decades.

Porker:

W8MM:

Porker:

Thanks for the input, really look forward to read more about the CGT on Cup 2's, not many running them I think. One does wonder what times the CGT would run around the Nürburgring on that tyre, must be a massive improvement...

The Cup2 tires don't come in the EXACT sizes necessary.  However, the fronts are available and the rears can use 345/30-20 instead of 335/30-20.  I did the same size switch when I first tried SuperSports because 335/30-20 was not originally available.  This helped handling a bit by giving more section width at the rear and the extra circumference corrected the too-optimistic speedometer reading.  A win-win.

Doesn't it create understeer going wider at the rear but leaving front unchanged?

On a car that comes with a lot of oversteer.. might be a suitable modification. 

Whoopsy:
Nick, it is quite well known that the CGT is a salvaging operation to recover some money from two failed racing program. It was never meant to be a road car. And it shows. It is hugely rewarding to those that can drive, professional race car drivers that can routinely use 10/10th of it. The twitchy handling characteristic is part of mid engine design, with weight in the middle it doesn’t take much for the car to want to rotate, unlike a rear engined 911. They mostly tuned that out when doing the 918 as that was designed from the grounds up to be a road car. But the 918 is still much twitchier than any 911s at the limit

Ahh, you beat me to it... my thoughts as well. If you are used to cars with twitchy handling and know how to modulate the controls of the car the CGT might be one of the cars for you. If I remember correctly, Dario Franchitti owns one and is highly excited about it.

isv..:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wbL05JIjAk

Great car, great video and welcome to the forum! 

Lots of great posts