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Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Quote:
Noahark2 said:
RC
Do the adapative sport seats pinch in the shoulder blades or upper torso as much as the previous sport seats in the 996 did or are the side bolsters adjustable as high as the shoulders? I understand that you probably would prefer to just listen to the engine note but can you also comment on the sound and speaker quality of the stadard radio versus the bose? I am very curious about the new radio.
No, they don't pinch you!
The BOSE system is great but at least in terms of FM quality there might be even more precise systems on the market. For factory-installed sound-systems it sounds more than sufficient!
Greetings!
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Thank you, RC.
After reading your report, three major flaws of the 997 stand out:
1) When driving fast on twisty roads with alternating left and right curves as well as on narrow road curves having little to no margin for error, the driver will have to deal with the steering going from the left direct zone, through the center indirect zone and then on to the right direct zone. I guess most people would be able to deal with it, but I'm sure it would be very frustrating for purist drivers who expect the best from Porsche, especially since steering is so critical to the driving experience. After Lotus, Porsche has or had the reputation for the best steering, both in feel and weight, in the world. Unfortunately, with this variable ratio steering, they seem to have fixed something that was not broken.
2) Not having the option for racing bucket seats due to the airbags is going to make purists unhappy when the time comes to take the car to the track. Safety-wise, I believe Porsche made the correct decision by installing the airbags in the seats. But, if they don't give customers an option for buckets in the future, they are making a big mistake.
3) No temporary spare tire on a "practical" Porsche? What were they thinking?
Unfortunately, these major flaws can, probably, only be fixed by Porsche rather than the aftermarket. So, until Porsche fixes these items, the 996 and 986 seem to be the best modern Porsches for the money.
After reading your report, three major flaws of the 997 stand out:
1) When driving fast on twisty roads with alternating left and right curves as well as on narrow road curves having little to no margin for error, the driver will have to deal with the steering going from the left direct zone, through the center indirect zone and then on to the right direct zone. I guess most people would be able to deal with it, but I'm sure it would be very frustrating for purist drivers who expect the best from Porsche, especially since steering is so critical to the driving experience. After Lotus, Porsche has or had the reputation for the best steering, both in feel and weight, in the world. Unfortunately, with this variable ratio steering, they seem to have fixed something that was not broken.
2) Not having the option for racing bucket seats due to the airbags is going to make purists unhappy when the time comes to take the car to the track. Safety-wise, I believe Porsche made the correct decision by installing the airbags in the seats. But, if they don't give customers an option for buckets in the future, they are making a big mistake.
3) No temporary spare tire on a "practical" Porsche? What were they thinking?
Unfortunately, these major flaws can, probably, only be fixed by Porsche rather than the aftermarket. So, until Porsche fixes these items, the 996 and 986 seem to be the best modern Porsches for the money.
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Maverick,
I don't think that the steering on the 997 is a bad thing. I have to agree with RC that you have to get used to it and I am a bit disappointed by the vague near-center feel - it has been a long time being in the 996 but I do believe that it was better there.
I'd say side airbags and race-buckets don't work together that easily - let's wait and see what the solution in the future - and especially on the GT3 - will be!
You're somewhat right with your opinion about the spare wheel issue. This was discussed frequently a few weeks ago and I am a little bit disappointed that this issue was sacrified for a little bit more trunk space! There are quite a few possibilites out there, from run-flat tires to inflatable spare wheels like on the SLK! There should be a better solution to it, even if it is mounted in the bottom of the trunk!
I don't think that the steering on the 997 is a bad thing. I have to agree with RC that you have to get used to it and I am a bit disappointed by the vague near-center feel - it has been a long time being in the 996 but I do believe that it was better there.
I'd say side airbags and race-buckets don't work together that easily - let's wait and see what the solution in the future - and especially on the GT3 - will be!
You're somewhat right with your opinion about the spare wheel issue. This was discussed frequently a few weeks ago and I am a little bit disappointed that this issue was sacrified for a little bit more trunk space! There are quite a few possibilites out there, from run-flat tires to inflatable spare wheels like on the SLK! There should be a better solution to it, even if it is mounted in the bottom of the trunk!
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Quote:
MAVERICK said:
1) When driving fast on twisty roads with alternating left and right curves as well as on narrow road curves having little to no margin for error, the driver will have to deal with the steering going from the left direct zone, through the center indirect zone and then on to the right direct zone. I guess most people would be able to deal with it, but I'm sure it would be very frustrating for purist drivers who expect the best from Porsche, especially since steering is so critical to the driving experience. After Lotus, Porsche has or had the reputation for the best steering, both in feel and weight, in the world. Unfortunately, with this variable ratio steering, they seem to have fixed something that was not broken.
When I test drove the 997S, I tried quick changes of direction and I really enjoyed how the steering worked. It felt very precise, at least as good as in my BoxsterS. I had no problems adapting to the variable ratio, in spite of only having the car for an hour.
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Quote:
fantasma said:
in spite of only having the car for an hour.
You should drive it at least for several hours and you'll be surprised what this little baby can do but first comes a certain "shock momentum" when the steering suddenly doesn't exactly what you want because it gets "razorsharp" and very precise (a cm too much steering in and you're gone...
).
Aug 24, 2004 11:39:25 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Aug 24, 2004 12:06:23 PM
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RC
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Carlos from Spain
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Fantastic!
what about actual ground clearance around the city (speed bumps, underground garages, etc) compared to the X73 996TT? or better yet can you compare to a M030 996?
It is pretty low, unfortunately. My 996 Turbo equipped with a H&R coilover kit was around 35-40 mm lower than the standard 996 and around 25-30 mm lower than the 996 Turbo and M030 cars (ROW). It always touched the ground with the front lip when I exited the garage. My 997 Carrera S does the same, it is not really the front lip but the plastic fin (spoiler?) under the front lip. But I think this shows how low the car is, it looks actually as low as a GT3.
Don't be too happy about stiffness: I love stiff suspension setups but after driving a few hundred kms over last weekend, my back was really happy when I entered the garage again.
For a daily driver in regions with bad streets and a lot of bumps definetely not the right car.
Aug 24, 2004 2:43:28 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
I really don't mind the stiffness, after used to hour long rides in sportbikes since ever, ANY car feels like a confortable couch 
and I got the "back" part covered also
So the stiffest I can go the better, but I think the clearance may be a problem since my RoWM030 996C4's front plastic lip scrapes or rubs my garage floor slightly already
though I have the aerokit which has a lower front lip than stock, so all in all do you think/guess the -20mm 997S would be lower from your experience?
(BTW as a friendly advise, the back disconforts you may experience may in part also have to do with the specific aligment of the lumbar lordosis you may have on the new seats of the 997S now. If the lordosis (sagittal curve of the lower back) is not adecuate, the ability of "cushioning" or shock absortion capacity of the lumbar vertebrae & intervetevral discs is greatly dimished therefore leading to early fatigue and disconforts (and the stiffer the car the more you will notice it but doesn't even need to be a stiff setup, the lordosis angle is more important) that may in time even extend to other activeties of daily living such as lowback stifness when getting out of bed, dificulty maintaing prolongued standing postures, lumbar paraspinal muscle hipertonia, etc. Not to mention the long term effects of the repetitive microtrauma involved, such as early degenerative disc disease leading to discal hernias, or porterior joint osteoarthrosis leading to facet sindromes, canal stenosis, etc in the long run. So its not good and should be addressed, unless its occasional or very light which may be the case.
So it may help to play around with the new seat's seating positions more especially the lumbar support and backrest&seat angle; maximun setting of the lumbar support, backrest vertical or almost, and not too much or little backrest-to-seat angle. oops I think I just went very OT
)
and I got the "back" part covered also
So the stiffest I can go the better, but I think the clearance may be a problem since my RoWM030 996C4's front plastic lip scrapes or rubs my garage floor slightly already
though I have the aerokit which has a lower front lip than stock, so all in all do you think/guess the -20mm 997S would be lower from your experience?
(BTW as a friendly advise, the back disconforts you may experience may in part also have to do with the specific aligment of the lumbar lordosis you may have on the new seats of the 997S now. If the lordosis (sagittal curve of the lower back) is not adecuate, the ability of "cushioning" or shock absortion capacity of the lumbar vertebrae & intervetevral discs is greatly dimished therefore leading to early fatigue and disconforts (and the stiffer the car the more you will notice it but doesn't even need to be a stiff setup, the lordosis angle is more important) that may in time even extend to other activeties of daily living such as lowback stifness when getting out of bed, dificulty maintaing prolongued standing postures, lumbar paraspinal muscle hipertonia, etc. Not to mention the long term effects of the repetitive microtrauma involved, such as early degenerative disc disease leading to discal hernias, or porterior joint osteoarthrosis leading to facet sindromes, canal stenosis, etc in the long run. So its not good and should be addressed, unless its occasional or very light which may be the case.
So it may help to play around with the new seat's seating positions more especially the lumbar support and backrest&seat angle; maximun setting of the lumbar support, backrest vertical or almost, and not too much or little backrest-to-seat angle. oops I think I just went very OT
)
Aug 24, 2004 5:17:05 PM
- ADias
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Carlos from Spain
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:...
So it may help to play around with the new seat's seating positions more especially the lumbar support and backrest&seat angle; maximun setting of the lumbar support, backrest vertical or almost, and not too much or little backrest-to-seat angle. oops I think I just went very OT
We should all thank you for addressing this. It's appaling to see how many people drive w/ tilted backrests and arms stretched and think they have a proper driving position.
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Today i dropped my 996 MY 02 for service at my dealer ... and took a 997 S 'til tomorrow. Today i drove 200 km with the car .. equipped with PASM and 18'' Winter Tyres ... here are my impressions:
Car is faster than my car ... especially above 200 km/h ... but you have to rev the car a bit higher to have an appropriate "feeling".
The built quality is much better in every detail !!! Great job on that !
I personally had mixed feelings about the steering ... but started to like it after a while ... it is completely different now ... much lighter to handle ... though very precise.
PSM starts to actuate quite late ... very good ... even light drifts where possible without any PSM activities.
With PASM at "comfort" setting the car felt like a BMW 5series Limo ... very impressive !
PASM at "sport" is not as harsh as the M030 on my car right now ... maybe i got that impression because the roll motion espacially at the rear axle has been improved a lot ... it doesn't give you these hard sounding hits on the rear axle any more ... ?!
Speeding at 240 km/h (Wintertyres !!!) i did not feel very comfortable in the car ... even with the PASM in "Sport" mode ... maybe it was the tyres which where 265/40 at the rear ...
Leaving the Autobahn ... the party began ... absolutely great fun on narrow backroads ... i think that is the playground the car was made for ... PASM Sport worked out great there. In general i had the feeling that the handling was engineered with the tendency of oversteering ... felt more like a 993 with that "roll" at the rear axle ... different from my 996 in any way ... that tends to have understeering ?!
Breaks (standard) where very good on that car ... wonder what the Ceramic stuff does with the car ???
Engine sound ... i think i would work on that :-)
For me ... the reason to get a 997 would not be about engine power ... the difference is not significant enough in my opinion ... it would be more about the setup and the handling of the car ... and the built quality. PASM is a nice thing when you use the car as a daily driver ... the comfort mode is very relaxing and calms you down after a hard day... if you want to !?
The 997 is a great car ... i'd say it is better in any way than the 996 ... but even the 996 performs on a level where many customers right now don't get close to the cars abilities ... so maybe they don't find many reasons to upgrade to the 997. Although i think most of the present 996 customers will go for the 997 because it can be driven much more comfortable ... PASM comfort mode, better seats, lighter steering etc. pp ... i don't think their decision will be made upon the efforts in driving dynamics ... which need a bit of an expertise at the steering wheel in order to be experienced. Those guys are waiting for the Turbo or the GT3 ... or are bridging the time with a 997S
Greetz
Car is faster than my car ... especially above 200 km/h ... but you have to rev the car a bit higher to have an appropriate "feeling".
The built quality is much better in every detail !!! Great job on that !
I personally had mixed feelings about the steering ... but started to like it after a while ... it is completely different now ... much lighter to handle ... though very precise.
PSM starts to actuate quite late ... very good ... even light drifts where possible without any PSM activities.
With PASM at "comfort" setting the car felt like a BMW 5series Limo ... very impressive !
PASM at "sport" is not as harsh as the M030 on my car right now ... maybe i got that impression because the roll motion espacially at the rear axle has been improved a lot ... it doesn't give you these hard sounding hits on the rear axle any more ... ?!
Speeding at 240 km/h (Wintertyres !!!) i did not feel very comfortable in the car ... even with the PASM in "Sport" mode ... maybe it was the tyres which where 265/40 at the rear ...
Leaving the Autobahn ... the party began ... absolutely great fun on narrow backroads ... i think that is the playground the car was made for ... PASM Sport worked out great there. In general i had the feeling that the handling was engineered with the tendency of oversteering ... felt more like a 993 with that "roll" at the rear axle ... different from my 996 in any way ... that tends to have understeering ?!
Breaks (standard) where very good on that car ... wonder what the Ceramic stuff does with the car ???
Engine sound ... i think i would work on that :-)
For me ... the reason to get a 997 would not be about engine power ... the difference is not significant enough in my opinion ... it would be more about the setup and the handling of the car ... and the built quality. PASM is a nice thing when you use the car as a daily driver ... the comfort mode is very relaxing and calms you down after a hard day... if you want to !?
The 997 is a great car ... i'd say it is better in any way than the 996 ... but even the 996 performs on a level where many customers right now don't get close to the cars abilities ... so maybe they don't find many reasons to upgrade to the 997. Although i think most of the present 996 customers will go for the 997 because it can be driven much more comfortable ... PASM comfort mode, better seats, lighter steering etc. pp ... i don't think their decision will be made upon the efforts in driving dynamics ... which need a bit of an expertise at the steering wheel in order to be experienced. Those guys are waiting for the Turbo or the GT3 ... or are bridging the time with a 997S
Greetz
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
After all the reports I read and wondering about the price in US, it is hard for me to think that Porsche is a better buy compared to the all new Vette... I know that you cannot compare the German Quality but @ what price... as RC mentioned some rediculous pricing on PCCB, and NAV, plus no air Suspensions in US...? Come on and on top of that a Price tag of cool 90k USD... I think Porsches have always been my fav and I have to wait for the GT versions of these to see if they are REALLY worth the price...
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Hey Geek Kid,
try to get a testdrive in both cars ... and then make a judgement. The Corvette is definetly on my list for a deep look ... be sure about that.
To have air suspension built in doesn't necessarily mean to have a great sportscar handling ... if the Corvette has a superior handling with air suspension ... good !!! If not ... whats the use of it ???
To be honest ... the comfort capabilities of the 997 were a big surprise to me ... no reason to buy another car because of that any longer ... unless you don't need more space ... 4 doors etc.. Although my salesman told me there are many poeple still criticizing on the lack of comfort ... completely don't understand them !!!
The steering is among the best things i ever experienced. I'm saying that after an aditional 150 km ride in the evening ... with less traffic on the streets ... its growing on me with every kilometer ... fantastic.
This car can be driven really fast ... even with brand new Wintertyres ... and it's not only a matter of engine power. I'd like to have the chance to check on a 997S with -20mm setup.
I did not mention the new Aisin Gearbox ... it works great even without a shortshifter ... and i have one installed on my 996 ... i didn't miss it.
The only thing i found annoying was the data overkill i was exposed to when looking at the odometer/displays ... hey guys ... it should be about information ... and thats defined by useful data. I'd like to have a function which would enable me to have my own configuration of data displays. I also disliked the blue-ish color of the display ... i found it disturbing.
Greetz
try to get a testdrive in both cars ... and then make a judgement. The Corvette is definetly on my list for a deep look ... be sure about that.
To have air suspension built in doesn't necessarily mean to have a great sportscar handling ... if the Corvette has a superior handling with air suspension ... good !!! If not ... whats the use of it ???
To be honest ... the comfort capabilities of the 997 were a big surprise to me ... no reason to buy another car because of that any longer ... unless you don't need more space ... 4 doors etc.. Although my salesman told me there are many poeple still criticizing on the lack of comfort ... completely don't understand them !!!
The steering is among the best things i ever experienced. I'm saying that after an aditional 150 km ride in the evening ... with less traffic on the streets ... its growing on me with every kilometer ... fantastic.
This car can be driven really fast ... even with brand new Wintertyres ... and it's not only a matter of engine power. I'd like to have the chance to check on a 997S with -20mm setup.
I did not mention the new Aisin Gearbox ... it works great even without a shortshifter ... and i have one installed on my 996 ... i didn't miss it.
The only thing i found annoying was the data overkill i was exposed to when looking at the odometer/displays ... hey guys ... it should be about information ... and thats defined by useful data. I'd like to have a function which would enable me to have my own configuration of data displays. I also disliked the blue-ish color of the display ... i found it disturbing.
Greetz
Nov 17, 2004 12:51:38 PM
- TurboSport
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: 997 Carrera S Rennteam Test Drive - Finally!
Rookie,
judging from your expanations and car setup, you should love the -20mm/PCCB combo. Marvellous. Especially with summer tires...
In fact neither the Porsche nor the Corvette have airsuspension, do they?
The Corvette (at least the C5 and probably just as much the C6) uses a similiar system as Cadillac, a fluid that alternates its viscosity once a magnetic field is activated (ferro-magnetic fluid). It has the general disadvantage that it is less comfortable in normal setting than comparable systems.
The Porsche PASM system adapts fluid velocity inside the dampers by opening and closing secondary valves.
Airsuspension is only an option on the Cayenne and in fact it is the -20mm suspension that is not available in the US yet.
judging from your expanations and car setup, you should love the -20mm/PCCB combo. Marvellous. Especially with summer tires...
In fact neither the Porsche nor the Corvette have airsuspension, do they?
The Corvette (at least the C5 and probably just as much the C6) uses a similiar system as Cadillac, a fluid that alternates its viscosity once a magnetic field is activated (ferro-magnetic fluid). It has the general disadvantage that it is less comfortable in normal setting than comparable systems.
The Porsche PASM system adapts fluid velocity inside the dampers by opening and closing secondary valves.
Airsuspension is only an option on the Cayenne and in fact it is the -20mm suspension that is not available in the US yet.
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