Crown

boytronic:

CGX car nut:

So true.  Even more unfortunate is that those that want to control others neither have the skills, capabilities, or experience. 

Let’s not discuss US politics on here ;)))

The person whom you are commenting about is vastly different than the media portrayal.  

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

 

The transition time of that breakthrough from the research laboratory to commercialized product will take longer than you would expect because of its lengthy testing period.   Any breakthrough will not be a simple modification of compounds currently in use.  Instead, those breakthroughs will involve new processes and procedures requiring new machinery too after a testing period determines the breakthrough is safe, reliable, and economically viable. 

 

Depends on which company you talking about, one particular one save money and time by using consumers as test subjects.

Evidently, you must mean Audi after this embarrassing snafu where the IP display informs e-tron owners of a pending oil change.  https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/audi-e-tron-owners-needs-oil-change/. This is inexcusable and hope that the person reasonable is held accountable. 

The major advantage Tesla has is NO existing ICE manufacturing or inventory.  That is a huge problem of transition for all current ICE car makers. Overnight the superiority of EV cars they build voids most current investments in tooling, factories etc.  

How on earth does one manage the transition. Note the GM has to be careful in how they promote even the Volt.  Too much good news or promotion and there is no reason to buy anything from the rest of the fleet. Interesting to see how VW manages this. 

Never thought that having profitability or positive cash flow from operations as a liability.  Those resources fund the R&D necessary to make the transition to EV more economically viable. 

If your make your EV right the ICE cars will not only no longer be profitable, they will go unsold. It is only because they are profiting now that they have a small opportunity to convert. But a tricky move is my point. 

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

 

The transition time of that breakthrough from the research laboratory to commercialized product will take longer than you would expect because of its lengthy testing period.   Any breakthrough will not be a simple modification of compounds currently in use.  Instead, those breakthroughs will involve new processes and procedures requiring new machinery too after a testing period determines the breakthrough is safe, reliable, and economically viable. 

 

Depends on which company you talking about, one particular one save money and time by using consumers as test subjects.

Ferrari is notorious for doing this.

When you're going through hell.....keep going.

Leawood911:

If your make your EV right the ICE cars will not only no longer be profitable, they will go unsold. It is only because they are profiting now that they have a small opportunity to convert. But a tricky move is my point. 

That’s a whole lotta of assumption.  Battery pack pricing is too great for the foreseeable future for a transition point, plus automakers still do not have an accurate forecast of EV demand amongst the mass market.  

The supply of batteries will be the main limiting factor in the volume of EV sales. It's why Ford will never sell as many Mustang Mach E as Tesla will sell of model Y.

The Taycan's biggest advantages over Tesla are in the number of battery cells required per million dollars of vehicle sales and in overall vehicle quality. Easy math that a Taycan selling at nearly 3 times the price of a Model 3 Performance or even just 50% greater than loaded Model S with a similar number of battery cells is an advantage to the manufacturer. Also overall vehicle quality in manufacturing is completely different than quality in software. It is one of the most difficult achievements possible. It is why a few manufacturers have been able to create products that consistently sell for a premium price.

I really do like Tesla, but I would prefer a Taycan.

Leawood911:

The major advantage Tesla has is NO existing ICE manufacturing or inventory.  That is a huge problem of transition for all current ICE car makers. Overnight the superiority of EV cars they build voids most current investments in tooling, factories etc.  

How on earth does one manage the transition. Note the GM has to be careful in how they promote even the Volt.  Too much good news or promotion and there is no reason to buy anything from the rest of the fleet. Interesting to see how VW manages this. 

That's the biggest lie and fake news ever in the human history. 

The EV crowd really wants the mass market to believe that. Actually that's what Tesla cult want the public to believe that and bid up Tesla's stock price. 

Traditional car companies sells CARS. Period. Normal cars or EV cars or hybrids. They will make whatever is profitable. Right now, there is no meat in the EV segment, there is no point in entering it full force unless there is government help, which there is, and why a few are entering it. Porsche is different, VAG was under pressure from diesel gate, so VAG had to do it to change their image. 

Tooling is an amortized cost, in the grand scheme of things they cost next to nothing. Existing factories also cost next to nothing to reconfig. Literally there could be only like 4 or 5 stations that needed to be adjusted and voila done. Remember the current car making process are broken down into tiny little segments, and only a select few are about the drivetrain, or normal drivetrain, swap them out with electric drivetrain and it's done. EV have fenders and wiring harness and dash and seats and whatever too, those are common stations between normal cars and EVs. 

GM promote very little of the Volt and Bolt because.............THERE IS NO ONE BUYING THEM!!!!! Consider how many cars and trucks they sell a year and compare that to the number of Bolts and Volts they sell, why should they spend a giant chunk of the money promoting a supplementary product? 

Anyways, IF, a big IF, that all ICE cars are banned and companies can only sell EVs, there will not be even close to enough production fulfilling the car buying demand. The current sell rate is like 2% of the whole worldwide car sales market, and even Tesla is already running out of battery producing capacity, one reason why the cybertruck will be delayed and in limited supply, they simply cannot make enough battery to produce enough trucks. That's the ugly plain truth, no one can make enough batteries. 

Battery technology is also another constraining factor, no matter how advance the current battery tech is, they are still dinosaur aged, it is advancing, and future battery tech will require much less exotic rare earth elements and can be produce cheaper and quicker and in more quantities.

Going back to traditional car companies vs Tesla. It extremely easy for traditional car companies to change their product mix to suit what the market wants. If the current trend calls for 10% EVs and 10% hybrids and 80% normal cars, they can adjust their production to that. They have the money to modify their factories to change over, they also have the money to spend on R&D to advance their own EV tech if they don't they can partner up with someone else. 

So what if the market calls for 80% EV and 10% hybrids and 10% normal cars? Traditional car company can manage that without much trouble, maybe it will take them a little longer to ramp up, but they are flexible. Tesla, on the other hand, is 100% relying on battery EV. What if the future is not battery but fuel cell? They are stuck with what they have, they can't pivot, they will be dead. Say Toyota will not be like that, as they are invested in all sorts of different tech, they are not limited to only battery EV. Same with Honda. VAG might be in a tougher spot but nothing they can't spend their way out of. 

Perhaps Tesla can try to spend their way out too, but they are really under way too much debt and too concentrated on one thing and one thing only, all the eggs in one basket so to speak. 

If you would take off the Tesla goggles and see things from the outside, you would probably noticed and understands. This is not even anti-Tesla, as VAG is sort of on the same boat right now, but at least VAG has normal car sales to save them from disasters which Tesla doesn't. 

Honestly dude, face the truth. EV are are quite decent already, we know you love your Model 3 very much, but in the grand scheme of things in the whole world, the EV segment is still a tiny little one, It is growing, yes, but still not big enough. it can't take over the world overnight, or even in 10 years, or 20. One step at a time.

Your view and you certainly are entitled to it.  I see the transition from one to the other as much more complicated for existing manufacturing.  In a short while a mix of products will make little sense like a hybrid car. So getting from here to EV will not be as easy. Batteries is one limiting factor. Mindset is another. Your mindset suits their plans but from where I see it the transition has taken place and a massive game of catch-up is taking place and they must delay and smooth the transition. We are likely 20 years behind where we should be. If it was not for disruption we would remain in place with ICE. 
Tesla just happens to be the leading EV only maker, this has nothing to do with Tesla googles.  
BTW existing makers swapping out engines for motors and batteries  and thinking its an EV will not work out well. 

Leawood911:

Your view and you certainly are entitled to it.  I see the transition from one to the other as much more complicated for existing manufacturing.  In a short while a mix of products will make little sense like a hybrid car. So getting from here to EV will not be as easy. Batteries is one limiting factor. Mindset is another. Your mindset suits their plans but from where I see it the transition has taken place and a massive game of catch-up is taking place and they must delay and smooth the transition. We are likely 20 years behind where we should be. If it was not for disruption we would remain in place with ICE. 
Tesla just happens to be the leading EV only maker, this has nothing to do with Tesla googles.  
BTW existing makers swapping out engines for motors and batteries  and thinking its an EV will not work out well. 

I think you drank too much from the Tesla Cool Aid. 

You should listen to Whoopsy, his analysis is spot on. Some manufacturers, like BMW and Mercedes for example, just  changed their strategy again, not pursuing a full EV future anymore.

As long as governments don't support EVs and the infrastructure/electricity with big money, EVs will stay in a very small percentage. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

We are also seeing a tiny crack in Porsche's strategy. They are hedging their bets with the next generation of the Macan by offering EV and ICE versions. There needs to be a significant breakthrough/leap in battery technology and supporting infrastructure for EV's market share to grow beyond single digits. I believe we will see an increase in hybrid models while the battery and alternate technologies along with the supporting infrastructure evolves. 

2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York

My point is they are competing technologies and someone involved with both must face different challenges than one who is just EV. 
In that regard if you make the EV correctly it should make the rest of the fleet pretty hard to sell if not obsolete. If you don’t make it that way then you can’t compete as well with the pure EV makers. This has nothing to with cool aid or Tesla. Imagine a maker of tube TVs starts to make flat screens to keep up with a pure flat screen maker.  He needs to keep in mind more market challenges than the pure flat screen maker. 
Government does support these EV more in the rest of the world than even in the US and electricity is all over the place. Just because the EU and ICE manufacturers have stalled does not make it the wrong path to the future. In fact I would ask why did they change course?  Perhaps it is because they are seeing the same difficulties with their transition that i see and they need time. From a consumer perspective I can tell you that the Genie is out of the bottle. People like me, many of us, know now that ICE is dead and not going to ever buy an ICE car again.  
 

Tesla has a first-mover technology advantage... it is the "Betamax" of EV automotive manufacturing! 

VW / Audi / Porsche have a multi-technology approach... offering VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray and 4K alternatives! 

Leawood911:

In that regard if you make the EV correctly it should make the rest of the fleet pretty hard to sell if not obsolete. If you don’t make it that way then you can’t compete as well with the pure EV makers. This has nothing to with cool aid or Tesla. Imagine a maker of tube TVs starts to make flat screens to keep up with a pure flat screen maker.  He needs to keep in mind more market challenges than the pure flat screen maker. 
.  
 

There are several important points why this not correct. To point out two:

- EV (with the technology given today) will never substitute the vast majority of ICE cars as the battery technology just does not provide enough range. EV is and will be (foreseeable future) for short/medium distances. Not for long distances on a daily basis.

- In your logic you are focusing on the "power plant" alone. The rest of the car, basically everything the driver will feel and look at, is and will be very comparable for EV and ICE cars. There are huge synergies in all these areas. Foremost, EV and ICE are both cars... Just with different sources of power. 

Leawood911:

Your view and you certainly are entitled to it.  I see the transition from one to the other as much more complicated for existing manufacturing.  In a short while a mix of products will make little sense like a hybrid car. So getting from here to EV will not be as easy. Batteries is one limiting factor. Mindset is another. Your mindset suits their plans but from where I see it the transition has taken place and a massive game of catch-up is taking place and they must delay and smooth the transition. We are likely 20 years behind where we should be. If it was not for disruption we would remain in place with ICE. 
Tesla just happens to be the leading EV only maker, this has nothing to do with Tesla googles.  
BTW existing makers swapping out engines for motors and batteries  and thinking its an EV will not work out well. 

Perhaps a better word than disruption is innovation, and one must admire Musk in that regard for both Tesla and SpaceX. That said, if you visit the Porsche factories you can appreciate why they built a separate factory for Taycan in Stuttgart - they don’t need to worry about retooling the existing factories as they now have a dedicated factory for EV production. 

Also, Tesla may be very popular in America, but come to Germany or London and you will see Tesla is a rare sight here. The infrastructure is not as advanced as America so they are not popular here... yet! :)

boytronic:

Also, Tesla may be very popular in America, but come to Germany or London and you will see Tesla is a rare sight here. The infrastructure is not as advanced as America so they are not popular here... yet! :)

They are very popular in Switzerland . Model 3 has been the 4th best selling car of all makes in 2019.

It is hard to generalize with cars and their markets . What is true over here is different then what is true just across the border . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

boytronic:

 

Perhaps a better word than disruption is innovation, and one must admire Musk in that regard for both Tesla and SpaceX. That said, if you visit the Porsche factories you can appreciate why they built a separate factory for Taycan in Stuttgart - they don’t need to worry about retooling the existing factories as they now have a dedicated factory for EV production. 

Also, Tesla may be very popular in America, but come to Germany or London and you will see Tesla is a rare sight here. The infrastructure is not as advanced as America so they are not popular here... yet! :)

But But But, Heir Musk used disruption the word and not innovation! Innovation the word is so 1990! 

Back to actual Taycan things... Who wants a pink Taycan?

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

I expect that to be the most frequent color choice in LA

When I look at the configurator, I don't see most of those color options.  Are they all coming soon?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I think someone photoshopped  them in.

boytronic:

 

Also, Tesla may be very popular in America, but come to Germany or London and you will see Tesla is a rare sight here. The infrastructure is not as advanced as America so they are not popular here... yet! :)

Tesla is also a rare sight in most of the US. Highest numbers are probably seen in SF and LA area? But the rest of the country is more like Germany or the EU 

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

Leawood911:

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

Florida has not many Teslas on the road... But no surprise really, if you look at how many Teslas sold vs how many cars in the US... Small minority, of course.

Leawood911:

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

then I definitely will not buy one, I don't like to wear uniform

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S;  2019 Speedster
 

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

Florida has not many Teslas on the road... But no surprise really, if you look at how many Teslas sold vs how many cars in the US... Small minority, of course.

Once outside of major metropolitan areas or college towns, Teslas are exceedingly rare.  In 2019, U.S. new auto sales hit 17.1 million.  Even if Tesla sold its total production of 365,300 units exclusively in the States, the total percentage of new cars sold that are Teslas is 2%.  The actual percentage is closer to 1%; however, because of confirmation bias, some see Teslas everywhere.  

Leawood911:

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

Hmm, luxury?

Interior is like a Corolla or a Camry, not sure if anyone called a Camry a luxury sedan. Heck, the top Camry trim has a leather dash for chris sake.

Even Elon himself, the king of over promise, doesn't call his Model 3 a luxury sedan, he called it the mass market product.

--

Of course. The interior. Lol. 

Targa Tim:

Leawood911:

In the ten parking spaces around me four of them are model3.  Middle of the country btw. It is the best selling mid size luxury sedan.  Do you come to the US much recently?

then I definitely will not buy one, I don't like to wear uniform

If I like it due to personal experience and you dislike it to be part of the cool gang of nay sayers who is wearing the uniform?