Crown

Whoopsy:

Seriously, if someone take off their American goggles, or German goggles, and see things from a 3rd party point of view where none of the cars are domestic but imports, the picture is much much clearer. Model S simply isn't in the same class as the Taycan, apart from being a 4 door EV sedan, they are as similar as a Camry vs a Flying Spur. 

I am French, living in Middle East since more than a decade. I own multiple Porsche, visited and tried Tesla. You can’t compare them at all. Night and day. I agree with you with Camry VS Bentley. Even if Porsche is lower than Bentley to my eyes in term cachet and luxury. There is a massive gap between Tesla and a Porsche. 

I have 0 interest for the Tesla. I do like the Taycan but let’s see what perf they will deliver will lower model as Turbo as priced insanely high. 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

CGX car nut:

Interesting video of the new Taycan driven by a Porsche engineer tasked with AWD development at Porsche’s Atlanta facility.  https://youtu.be/rFVp7apjZZ8

I enjoyed this video, thanks for posting.

People can say what they like about Tesla and other EVs, but for drivers the Taycan will be the best Electric.

Like in all segments that Porsche is represented they make the best driver's cars. More expensive than the competition, yes but there are unique and redeeming features.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

This article sums it up quite nicely. Nick there is something in it for you and me.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-vs-porsche-taycan-who-wins-no-contest-2019-9

Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.

nberry:

This article sums it up quite nicely. Nick there is something in it for you and me.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-s-vs-porsche-taycan-who-wins-no-contest-2019-9

I swear to God I didn't write that article 

As you all know, I knew the pricing and spec of the Taycan for a while, and I did have a chat with Porsche about them. I can't disclose stuff before as the car wasn't launched yet. The Teslas they got was for studying, it wasn't really a 'benchmark' for them to aim at per se. Of course they want to know how the EV market segment leading car works, especially since EV cars is a new thing for the group. 

They had great experiences doing hybrids, and they simply combined that knowledge with those gained from studying a Tesla. Especially on matching front axle drive with rear axle drive when the 2 are not physically connected. The result is the Taycan. All the weaknesses in a Tesla were not present in the Taycan as we all can see.

They know their brand, and how much it is worth, hence the pricing strategy to stand above the Tesla offerings. I totally understand their standpoints and I had agreed with them 100%.

Before it was Tesla or nothing, there is no choices in the EV segment. Tesla can get away with a $100k Model S with a sub par interior. The price tag is 'expensive', very different than naming it luxury as it isn't. There is no point for Porsche to price a luxuriously made Taycan at the same price point, there is no money to be made and it cheapens the brand. Just like Bentley will never sell a car at the $100k price point. What Porsche has done is stretched the EV segment upmarket. They expanded the pie upwards. The Taycan doesn't compete directly with Model S, it only steal those customers that can afford a higher price car and wanted their money paid to be worthwhile. The rest of the client base who don't mind a cheap interior will still buy Teslas. But a choice has been given to the segment, either they paid $100k for a cheap car, or pay more for a luxurious one.

Later on, when the really luxurious brands like Rolls Royce and Bentley enter the EV segment, they will expand the market even more upwards, going on top of Porsche, like how they did with the SUV segment. The Cayenne was the SUV that expanded the SUV market upwards, the top models was the most expensive SUV in the segment fo a while, until Bentley, Rolls Royce and Lamborghini came in. I didn't forget about Land Rover with their Range Rover line, they were expensive and luxuriously trimmed, but they don't have the build quality to match the price tag and remained a niche product, that top end SUV market didn't expand to the size today until the Cayenne came along.

Ive found the Taycan launch interesting. As a person who is unlikely to own an EV any time soon it got me thinking and doing some research. 

Here are a few random thoughts to throw in the mix:

• Porsche appear to have taken a different fork in the road from Tesla. They have definated their product using a traditional auto motive "hardware marketing model". You are limited to the range of opportunity by the initial "model" you purchase, even if the electro/mechanical underpinnings are identical. Instead of launching a base platform (for say $100K USD) and allowing the consumer to add and delete from the full suite of options you are limited into a range defined by your initial spend.
•  
• Subsequent to above Porsche have a very narrow and definated production migration strategy. Essentially (and assuming they can over the air update - something i have not yet read about for the Tayan), if Porsche were to issue software updates that made significant improvements to performance or handling of their cars they would have to do so for all "hardware models" in their Tayan range. Otherwise other models would be unfairly disadvantaged in the yes of the consumer.
•  
• Whereas Tesla will sell you a car and recomend Lidar and a few other options to ensure you are enabled for future functionality (improvement in autonomous driving, medium distance saftey priming, collisiosn avoidance etc), at this time I am not aware of the Tayans capability. Yes its an electric performance car, but can it see/calculate the speed of cars a few vehciles ahead and provide saftey assistance, can it drive for any time with no human assistance etc? I dont now the answer to this and I may have missed something but I would imagine for a Tesla S owner it would be a dissapointment if some of these features were not present or if in the future it was not possible to take advanatge of connected feature sets.
•  
• It occurs to me that Tesla have the advantage with batteries and power distribution. Porsche are using a new cell configuration and higher voltage and to date have relatively limited exposure to scale implimentation and commsisioning of EV power packs. As in any complex supply chain with new vendors and materials it takes some time to get this right.
•  
• On the subject of distribution - in countries like New Zealand that are volcanic and have challenging topography (think about areas of Switzerland or France that are similar) range and distribution of suitable charging appliances is critical. A 250 mile EPA range for a Taycan becomes 180 miles here and recharge stations are scarce let alone "supercharged" ones or ones that can fast charge a 800v system. Porsche may have an investment in a Supercharger network but I think it will be a long time becore ot becomes a practical reality outside of Europe or North America - certainly a lot longr than the likely production availability of the Taycan. Does a 23 minute to 80% fast charge become a selling point in a territory that has no roadisde chargers capable of crging teh battery to 80% in any less than 73 minutes?
•  
• Not wanting a debate on this one but end to end sustainability of the EV is still a huge questionmark for me personally (I own a business which is recognised for its sustainable practices). Hundreds of kilograms of lithum cells per unit seems like a future environmental hazzard to me. Gasoline engines are becoming so efficent now that the hydrocarbons created are far less than in the past. Forrect fires in Brazil have done more to ruin the future (next 30 years) carbon conversion footprint in the last few weeks than swiitching 20% of the worlds fleet to electric will reocber in the next few decades. At least teh end to end recyclability of a typical 2019 gasoline motor car is around 80% by weight/volume. Im not sure the same can be said for EV...
•  
• And here is the kicker. Would you rather be T-boned at an interestion by a car travelling at 80kmph running a red light in a 400+ volt electric car sitting on 400kg of high amerage batteries or a well built gasoline car? Im not sure if many are aware but in some counties now the emergency services have been told not to touch a suspected EV car until a specially trained and equipped emergency unit are dispatched (such is the chances of possible elctricution or toxic inhallation to first responders). Im not trying to be an alarmist but just a little research online will show you how difficult it is to extinhuish a electrical fire (worse os Lithium) vs a traditonal fire. If you are trained as a pilot this will all sound familiar. The chances of extinguising an electrical fire become on board an aircraft are significnatly lower than any other.
•  
• Infact the largest organiser of Track Days in our ciuntry this week made it clear that they will not allow any EV or Hybrid vehciles to attend track days as they do not have the equipment for dealing with an accident in an EV (they will not even approach such a vehicle nor do they have the rubber matts or the water tanks and cranes required in Forumula E serieas sanctioned FIA events to safely neutralise a lithium fire, toxic chemical or electrification risk)!

I appreciate these points are not specifically on topic nor necessarily salient to many on this thread so please choose to ignore if you wish - the Tayan is an interesting car but more interesting is the questions it has created for me personally to understand more about this space - areas I had largely been ignoring as a gasoline engine fan.

My personal view on the Tayan is that it is expensive and the styling is not as true to the Mission E as I would have liked. The range (for in my country this is an important aspect) is not as great as I would have liked. However I was never the market and as such Im sure the product will be a success for Porsche and the wealthy early adoptors will enjoy a well handling EV sedan. I hope Porsche learn plenty from the excerise as my wife wants to rpelace her Macan S with a EV variant in a few years once it launches. As for a hybrid GT3, please Porsche do not make this anytime soon or I will have to abandon my monthly track days or buy another track car lol!

P.S. I know many will argue Porsche know what they are doing and their engineering team are second to none. Unfortunately I lived through three 991.1 GT3 engine swaps and two 981 gearbox swaps so I confess up front my confidence in Porsche engineering dissapated some time ago. Car companies these days are pushing product to market very quickly and it appears we are the beta testers for the product more often than not...
--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

macca993:

Ive found the Taycan launch interesting. As a person who is unlikely to own an EV any time soon it got me thinking and doing some research. 

Here are a few random thoughts to throw in the mix:

• Porsche appear to have taken a different fork in the road from Tesla. They have definated their product using a traditional auto motive "hardware marketing model". You are limited to the range of opportunity by the initial "model" you purchase, even if the electro/mechanical underpinnings are identical. Instead of launching a base platform (for say $100K USD) and allowing the consumer to add and delete from the full suite of options you are limited into a range defined by your initial spend.
•  
• Subsequent to above Porsche have a very narrow and definated production migration strategy. Essentially (and assuming they can over the air update - something i have not yet read about for the Tayan), if Porsche were to issue software updates that made significant improvements to performance or handling of their cars they would have to do so for all "hardware models" in their Tayan range. Otherwise other models would be unfairly disadvantaged in the yes of the consumer.
•  
• Whereas Tesla will sell you a car and recomend Lidar and a few other options to ensure you are enabled for future functionality (improvement in autonomous driving, medium distance saftey priming, collisiosn avoidance etc), at this time I am not aware of the Tayans capability. Yes its an electric performance car, but can it see/calculate the speed of cars a few vehciles ahead and provide saftey assistance, can it drive for any time with no human assistance etc? I dont now the answer to this and I may have missed something but I would imagine for a Tesla S owner it would be a dissapointment if some of these features were not present or if in the future it was not possible to take advanatge of connected feature sets.
•  
• It occurs to me that Tesla have the advantage with batteries and power distribution. Porsche are using a new cell configuration and higher voltage and to date have relatively limited exposure to scale implimentation and commsisioning of EV power packs. As in any complex supply chain with new vendors and materials it takes some time to get this right.
•  
• On the subject of distribution - in countries like New Zealand that are volcanic and have challenging topography (think about areas of Switzerland or France that are similar) range and distribution of suitable charging appliances is critical. A 250 mile EPA range for a Taycan becomes 180 miles here and recharge stations are scarce let alone "supercharged" ones or ones that can fast charge a 800v system. Porsche may have an investment in a Supercharger network but I think it will be a long time becore ot becomes a practical reality outside of Europe or North America - certainly a lot longr than the likely production availability of the Taycan. Does a 23 minute to 80% fast charge become a selling point in a territory that has no roadisde chargers capable of crging teh battery to 80% in any less than 73 minutes?
•  
• Not wanting a debate on this one but end to end sustainability of the EV is still a huge questionmark for me personally (I own a business which is recognised for its sustainable practices). Hundreds of kilograms of lithum cells per unit seems like a future environmental hazzard to me. Gasoline engines are becoming so efficent now that the hydrocarbons created are far less than in the past. Forrect fires in Brazil have done more to ruin the future (next 30 years) carbon conversion footprint in the last few weeks than swiitching 20% of the worlds fleet to electric will reocber in the next few decades. At least teh end to end recyclability of a typical 2019 gasoline motor car is around 80% by weight/volume. Im not sure the same can be said for EV...
•  
• And here is the kicker. Would you rather be T-boned at an interestion by a car travelling at 80kmph running a red light in a 400+ volt electric car sitting on 400kg of high amerage batteries or a well built gasoline car? Im not sure if many are aware but in some counties now the emergency services have been told not to touch a suspected EV car until a specially trained and equipped emergency unit are dispatched (such is the chances of possible elctricution or toxic inhallation to first responders). Im not trying to be an alarmist but just a little research online will show you how difficult it is to extinhuish a electrical fire (worse os Lithium) vs a traditonal fire. If you are trained as a pilot this will all sound familiar. The chances of extinguising an electrical fire become on board an aircraft are significnatly lower than any other.
•  
• Infact the largest organiser of Track Days in our ciuntry this week made it clear that they will not allow any EV or Hybrid vehciles to attend track days as they do not have the equipment for dealing with an accident in an EV (they will not even approach such a vehicle nor do they have the rubber matts or the water tanks and cranes required in Forumula E serieas sanctioned FIA events to safely neutralise a lithium fire, toxic chemical or electrification risk)!

I appreciate these points are not specifically on topic nor necessarily salient to many on this thread so please choose to ignore if you wish - the Tayan is an interesting car but more interesting is the questions it has created for me personally to understand more about this space - areas I had largely been ignoring as a gasoline engine fan.

My personal view on the Tayan is that it is expensive and the styling is not as true to the Mission E as I would have liked. The range (for in my country this is an important aspect) is not as great as I would have liked. However I was never the market and as such Im sure the product will be a success for Porsche and the wealthy early adoptors will enjoy a well handling EV sedan. I hope Porsche learn plenty from the excerise as my wife wants to rpelace her Macan S with a EV variant in a few years once it launches. As for a hybrid GT3, please Porsche do not make this anytime soon or I will have to abandon my monthly track days or buy another track car lol!

P.S. I know many will argue Porsche know what they are doing and their engineering team are second to none. Unfortunately I lived through three 991.1 GT3 engine swaps and two 981 gearbox swaps so I confess up front my confidence in Porsche engineering dissapated some time ago. Car companies these days are pushing product to market very quickly and it appears we are the beta testers for the product more often than not...
--

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Interesting points. I live in Africa where large swathes of the continent don't have electrical power to turn on a light bulb, let alone charge an EV.

As for the forest fires in Brazil: Consider the following if you are interested:

https://fee.org/articles/data-on-amazon-rainforest-fires-tell-a-much-different-story-than-social-media/https://fee.org/articles/data-on-amazon-rainforest-fires-tell-a-much-different-story-than-social-media/

Macca and Spyderid: great posts.

macca993:

Ive found the Taycan launch interesting. As a person who is unlikely to own an EV any time soon it got me thinking and doing some research. 

Here are a few random thoughts to throw in the mix:

• Porsche appear to have taken a different fork in the road from Tesla. They have definated their product using a traditional auto motive "hardware marketing model". You are limited to the range of opportunity by the initial "model" you purchase, even if the electro/mechanical underpinnings are identical. Instead of launching a base platform (for say $100K USD) and allowing the consumer to add and delete from the full suite of options you are limited into a range defined by your initial spend.
•  
• Subsequent to above Porsche have a very narrow and definated production migration strategy. Essentially (and assuming they can over the air update - something i have not yet read about for the Tayan), if Porsche were to issue software updates that made significant improvements to performance or handling of their cars they would have to do so for all "hardware models" in their Tayan range. Otherwise other models would be unfairly disadvantaged in the yes of the consumer.
•  
• Whereas Tesla will sell you a car and recomend Lidar and a few other options to ensure you are enabled for future functionality (improvement in autonomous driving, medium distance saftey priming, collisiosn avoidance etc), at this time I am not aware of the Tayans capability. Yes its an electric performance car, but can it see/calculate the speed of cars a few vehciles ahead and provide saftey assistance, can it drive for any time with no human assistance etc? I dont now the answer to this and I may have missed something but I would imagine for a Tesla S owner it would be a dissapointment if some of these features were not present or if in the future it was not possible to take advanatge of connected feature sets.
•  
• It occurs to me that Tesla have the advantage with batteries and power distribution. Porsche are using a new cell configuration and higher voltage and to date have relatively limited exposure to scale implimentation and commsisioning of EV power packs. As in any complex supply chain with new vendors and materials it takes some time to get this right.
•  
• On the subject of distribution - in countries like New Zealand that are volcanic and have challenging topography (think about areas of Switzerland or France that are similar) range and distribution of suitable charging appliances is critical. A 250 mile EPA range for a Taycan becomes 180 miles here and recharge stations are scarce let alone "supercharged" ones or ones that can fast charge a 800v system. Porsche may have an investment in a Supercharger network but I think it will be a long time becore ot becomes a practical reality outside of Europe or North America - certainly a lot longr than the likely production availability of the Taycan. Does a 23 minute to 80% fast charge become a selling point in a territory that has no roadisde chargers capable of crging teh battery to 80% in any less than 73 minutes?
•  
• Not wanting a debate on this one but end to end sustainability of the EV is still a huge questionmark for me personally (I own a business which is recognised for its sustainable practices). Hundreds of kilograms of lithum cells per unit seems like a future environmental hazzard to me. Gasoline engines are becoming so efficent now that the hydrocarbons created are far less than in the past. Forrect fires in Brazil have done more to ruin the future (next 30 years) carbon conversion footprint in the last few weeks than swiitching 20% of the worlds fleet to electric will reocber in the next few decades. At least teh end to end recyclability of a typical 2019 gasoline motor car is around 80% by weight/volume. Im not sure the same can be said for EV...
•  
• And here is the kicker. Would you rather be T-boned at an interestion by a car travelling at 80kmph running a red light in a 400+ volt electric car sitting on 400kg of high amerage batteries or a well built gasoline car? Im not sure if many are aware but in some counties now the emergency services have been told not to touch a suspected EV car until a specially trained and equipped emergency unit are dispatched (such is the chances of possible elctricution or toxic inhallation to first responders). Im not trying to be an alarmist but just a little research online will show you how difficult it is to extinhuish a electrical fire (worse os Lithium) vs a traditonal fire. If you are trained as a pilot this will all sound familiar. The chances of extinguising an electrical fire become on board an aircraft are significnatly lower than any other.
•  
• Infact the largest organiser of Track Days in our ciuntry this week made it clear that they will not allow any EV or Hybrid vehciles to attend track days as they do not have the equipment for dealing with an accident in an EV (they will not even approach such a vehicle nor do they have the rubber matts or the water tanks and cranes required in Forumula E serieas sanctioned FIA events to safely neutralise a lithium fire, toxic chemical or electrification risk)!

I appreciate these points are not specifically on topic nor necessarily salient to many on this thread so please choose to ignore if you wish - the Tayan is an interesting car but more interesting is the questions it has created for me personally to understand more about this space - areas I had largely been ignoring as a gasoline engine fan.

My personal view on the Tayan is that it is expensive and the styling is not as true to the Mission E as I would have liked. The range (for in my country this is an important aspect) is not as great as I would have liked. However I was never the market and as such Im sure the product will be a success for Porsche and the wealthy early adoptors will enjoy a well handling EV sedan. I hope Porsche learn plenty from the excerise as my wife wants to rpelace her Macan S with a EV variant in a few years once it launches. As for a hybrid GT3, please Porsche do not make this anytime soon or I will have to abandon my monthly track days or buy another track car lol!

P.S. I know many will argue Porsche know what they are doing and their engineering team are second to none. Unfortunately I lived through three 991.1 GT3 engine swaps and two 981 gearbox swaps so I confess up front my confidence in Porsche engineering dissapated some time ago. Car companies these days are pushing product to market very quickly and it appears we are the beta testers for the product more often than not...
--

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Everything you wrote pretty much sums up the current situation, EV are really not for the main stage yet despite what those Tesla people says or whoever else are promoting their own EV. They are simply not ready for prime time.

A hybrid makes the most sense to balance the 'green' part vs practicality. It is the best of both worlds right now and no one can argue that. Heck a pure EV is basically just as heavy as a hybrid, so even the weight argument is out the window.

My Panamera's electric range covers my daily city needs with km to spare, I can go ages without even starting the engine especially with home charging. My Audi e-Tron can last like almost a whole week before needing a full charge which takes 11hrs or so with a level 2 charger at home. 

The gas engine have enough range by itself to out last my bladder capacity. 

Not 3wsedozK˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚mmmnnnn

Whoopsy:

The gas engine have enough range by itself to out last my bladder capacity. 

Not 3wsedozK˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚mmmnnnn

We’ve lost Whoopsy.

997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 

farina:

207k Euro?? They must have found the holy grail with this car. It is called “turbo“ but has no turbo engine and no real sound! For me the whole car looks ungainly and the pricing is ridiculous! This price can not be justified. Never ever! But if you like it...

People paid over 100+k for a Cayenne Diesel with 250 or 260 hp...  I wouldn't worry about Porsche.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

People paid over 100+k for a Cayenne Diesel with 250 or 260 hp...  I wouldn't worry about Porsche.

That pretty much sums it up in one line 

Cool 

--

-----------------------------------

BMW i8 * RRS * BMW i3s

Sidney,

Linkey no workie.  

Here is a half-hour Taycan assembly vid.   I find it strangely calming.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhaz1jh7--Y

... that's what I posted as well ... the link worked before ... but anyway ... pretty cool video

-----------------------------------

.... in the meantime I got my Porsche offer for a Taycan lease (36m/10k/0 EUR): lease factor is really 1,6 .... means a middle packed Taycan Turbo with 180k EUR is more than 2900 EUR per month .... means you paid 105k EUR in 3 years.

Porsche wants to sell the Taycans instead of lease ... but who buys a car with batterie  

-----------------------------------

bvineyards:

Sidney,

Linkey no workie.  

Here is a half-hour Taycan assembly vid.   I find it strangely calming.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhaz1jh7--Y

That half-hour video is magnitudes greater in detail of the Taycan assembly process than what was ever released by Tesla of their highly vaunted manufacturing system.  Today was a pivotal day for the entire Volkswagen Group as Porsche Taycan production began as well as the reveal of the Volkswagen ID.3.  As a company, while not having a direct competitor to Tesla's product lineup, Volkswagen Group has a breadth and depth of product amongst three brands that is unsurpassed by any other manufacturer.

Something that has escaped discussion but was alluded to several times by posters here is that Porsche produces, for the most part, Veblen goods, which command abnormal rents in the marketplace.  The easiest way to consider a Veblen good is to observe restaurants in most urban centers during Friday and Saturday evenings.  The more expensive restaurants are filled with customers while the fast food restaurants down the street are typically empty.  Of course, that changes during the transition into the wee hours of the morning when revelers look for something to offset the accumulation of alcohol.

Musk, surprisingly, failed to understand the concept of Veblen goods with its upward sloping demand curve, when he repriced his automobiles, to stimulate demand, over the past year.  That act negatively impacted existing customer loyalty when their cars suddenly became worth less, many dropping below the value of the outstanding loan principles, to gain an increase in demand.  Automobiles, for most households are major capital expenditures, not the expenses like cellphones and other forms of consumer electronics.  That simple act of reducing prices has hampered Tesla's ability to extract abnormal rents from its customer base and coupled with the lower margins from Model 3 production, limits the company's cash flow generation.  

spudgun:

Whoopsy:

The gas engine have enough range by itself to out last my bladder capacity. 

Not 3wsedozK˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚mmmnnnn

We’ve lost Whoopsy.

Oops, think he touched the 800v plug....

2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

The question, is there the possibility to change the battery? Even in 15 years time... Because I remember Porsche are very proud that about 70% of all porsche built are driven even today. As far as I see - the battery is an integral part of chassis, so in 15 years people will have to dispose the whole car?

sportcars-history.com

Some interesting reading here on EV accident and containment.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/25/fatal-tesla-model-s-crash-ev-fires/?fbclid=IwAR1Z-ZCgIu5IbtnXFYmNtOZpCkHQI3EFoOMZzTORyJFqSoTmYF85lwnIuX0

Also this one about a new i8 in a dealership that started smoking. The Dutch crew used the same process that the FIA are now recommending for EV related inccidents on teh track in our country (plus rubber matts as sanctioned for forumla E as I understand):

https://www.motor1.com/news/315476/bmw-i8-fire-reponse-netherlands/?fbclid=IwAR3aJ_j496fpLtF4RviwRD05aF8WKZlSM9QCKyUwEhupnAiUVAV7QFdhhKc

Talking with my insurers last few days on a mechanical breakdown package they were claiming one of the larger underwriters is considering adjusting policies (upwards) for EV insurance negating some of the savings benefit of ownership. In the case of even a moderate accident many of these vehicles will be a total loss due to the integrated nature of the battery cells as part of the chassis/structure. 

We in interesting times! Im happy to continue to enjoy my hydrocarbon emmitting Alfa Guilia QVdaily driver while sitting on teh sideline (its actually as efficent on long drives than many modern cars with haff the capacity/output!).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Cannot figure how to turn upright, can someone help?

I attended the Frankfurt Show and Taycan debut today.  More pics to come tomorrow.  For now, my personal impressions:

Car is extremely modern, far more muscular, and more of a 992 look than a Panamera look.  Shorter more raked bonnet is key to the non-Panamera look.  Front light scoops are well integrated and add distinctive  look.  Similarity to 992 appearance instantly dates the 992.

Wheel options are fantastic and nothing like anything currently offered.  Best exterior colors are white and blue (not red).   Glass roof is a must--adds light and space to interior.  Interior finish is superb, clearly more modern and clean than any current Porsche model (and vastly superior to Tesla).  Seat position and support are typical Porsche and instantly sets the driver up correctly for forward view and sense of oneness with car. Boytronic, rear set legroom is limited but not cramped.  Cockpit external front angle is a bit "forward" reminding me of the 919 cockpit.

Car has a wide, low and muscular appearance, even without the wide hips of the concept.  Makes the Tesla looks like a sedan.  More later.  Questions welcomed.

Thanks for the first hand experience. You wrote: "rear set legroom is limited but not cramped". Can you give me a reference like how it compares to other cars and/or if a 1,80m (6ft) person will hit the roof ? I'm also interested in luggage space and if the the rear seats can be flat folded. Thanks again and keep them pictures coming 

Thank you for posting your initial comments.  Look forward to reading any updates.  Priced out a Taycan Turbo and it isn't too crazy, especially, when the really go fast components found on the Turbo S aren't necessary for street driving.  

Is it not time to open up a Taycan thread?

Good idea, wonderbar's photos from Frankfurt is a great excuse to open a Taycan thread...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

A different angle, showing the strong rear presence of the Taycan.  Love these rims...

Not my favorite color for the car.  Don't be fooled by the elongated look in the photo.  Again, this car is not a baby Panamera.  Think a 992 with modern styling elements.  Notice how low the car looks, especially with the large rims..

I think the pricing of the Taycan generally follows the ranges of the 992 Turbo and Turbo S.

Wasn't this what Porsche spokespeople have said about the Taycan and basically alluded to it being the new 911?  The size of the battery pack makes the car too large as a two-door but perfectly sized for an aggressive sedan.  This also reverberates with statements made a few months ago about Porsche not benchmarking the Taycan against the Tesla Model S; the Taycan represents a different class of vehicle, though there is a bit of overlap.  

Not too sure if I like the rear window. it looks rather small with those wide pillars; but it might be the angle. All the rest is just beautiful 

Not sure, but I think I remember several RT members calling the Taycan a baby Panamera.  No matter CGX, you have the correct image in mind.  A slightly longer 992 with more aggressive styling.  

Regarding the constant Tesla/Taycan debate, which I never ascribed to, the two cars are unmistakably  different in appearance.  One is an attractive sedan (IMHO) and the other is a truly modern and powerful looking sportscar.

I pointedly asked several Porsche representatives if the Taycan were designed as a Tesla beater. The consistent, and I believe honest, answer was no.  The Taycan was designed as a Porsche first and foremost, and as a modern extension of Porsche models, engineering, race heritage and "soul".  One high level marketing representative went out of his. way to credit Tesla for creating a revolutionary breakthrough in electric mobility, and that the Taycan would not have been at the Show today but for the innovative and clear success of Tesla.