Crown

Wonderbar:

Good information, thanks...

Thanks.  One will supplement any technical information on the new Taycan as the information becomes available.  It is interesting to compare the electric machines, note it is not motor since all of these devices recuperate electricity as well as provide tractive forces, between Porsche and Tesla.  

Tesla originally utilized an AC induction machine, hence its name Tesla, for the inventor of the AC induction machine.  While an AC induction machine has high low RPM torque output it has several shortcomings including a costly-to-fabricate copper rotor and decreased efficiency from generating two separate magnetic fields.  

Tesla addressed the shortcomings with the Model 3 machine, which is a 3 phase AC 6 pole permanent magnetic switched reluctance machine that is more efficient than the induction device since it only needs to generate one magnetic field.  However, switched reluctance machines, which are about 50 years older technology compared with the induction machine, has problems with torque rippling, which can be controlled with permanent magnetic placement and inverter design.

The Porsche Taycan utilizes a third machine design, the permanent magnet synchronous machine, which of course, has other tradeoffs and benefits.  However, recall that Porsche has conducted significant research in EV design with its 918 and 919 projects.  A couple of distinct differences with the Porsche EV is the use of hairpin wiring, increasing stator wiring densities to stabilize the magnetic field of the machine as well as provides better cooling characteristics than those designs that rely on round wire wrappings.  Hairpin wiring designs require additional fabrication costs which increase product price but this is the same type of design used on the LeMans winning racecar where the utmost efficiency was demanded. 

Porsche also introduced a two-speed transmission on the rear axle.  While some details remain undisclosed, the transmission uses two clutches with the two gear gearset to decrease acceleration times while increasing efficiency during high speed cruising.  Another benefit of this system is that the rear machine cane be disconnected from the rear axle by opening both clutches to reduce parasitic inefficiencies from the rotating mass of that machine's rotor.   This makes the Taycan a front wheel drive car for most of its high speed cruising regime. It is a similar strategy employed by Audi with its latest Ultra Quattro approach for its ICE cars.  

Inverter design is yet another topic; however, not much is disclosed on the approach, beyond the 800 volt battery pack taken by Porsche.  One can be assured that Porsche's approach is, with high probability, derived from its motorsports activities.  

Interesting developments in regard to electric machines:  

https://www.linearlabsinc.com/overview/

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

W8MM:

Interesting developments in regard to electric machines:  

https://www.linearlabsinc.com/overview/

Definitely interesting.  Thank you for posting.  One development that hasn't received much coverage is the Ferrari SF90 uses radial, not axial, machines for the front axle.  

From a pure engineering standpoint, EVs offer benefits that no ICE is able to meet.  Unfortunately, battery technology remains the impediment in terms of technical performance and cost.  

W8MM:

Interesting developments in regard to electric machines:  

https://www.linearlabsinc.com/overview/

Gotta love the use of the current 'in thing' buzz word, disruptive.

A few years ago the buzz word is innovative. 

Back in the 60s it was jet. 

Whoopsy:

W8MM:

Interesting developments in regard to electric machines:  

https://www.linearlabsinc.com/overview/

 

Gotta love the use of the current 'in thing' buzz word, disruptive.

A few years ago the buzz word is innovative. 

Back in the 60s it was jet. 

 

Thought it was plastics in the 1960s.   

schmoell:

The Taycan will overheat later than a Tesla, but it will (as will ICE cars, if driven hard enough).   

I've tried my hardest and my GT3 never gets more than warm on a hot day, even when lapping until it needs more fuel (and I have the optional larger tank)

--

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Guy's, your prejudice is showing. The comparisons on paper have meanful data. While it is true that some of the Tesla performance numbers are one off, in real driving world experiences how often will someone be constantly accelerating at maximum throttle? The delta in price is one half. 

I'll be the first to acknowledge the Porsche is probably better engineered but is worth another $100,000 or more given what we know about the on paper comparisons? 

Stop thinking with your hearts and use your heads.

 

Nick, when they are not in the same price bracket, there shouldn’t be a comparison at all. If we use that comparison logic, then a Camry is a perfect competitor to a Mercedes S class, they both are ICE powered and seats 5, the Camry is $100k cheaper and is the Mercedes worth 100k more? 

Your comparison is faulty. The MB is a luxury car and the Camry is an economy car. The Tesla is considered a luxury EV with several years of experience in EV development. The Taycan is also considered luxury EV but importantly a first model product. YET, the Taycan is $100,000 more in price.

Porsche is pricing this car based on the initial demand (deposits). Also, they are factoring in the Porsche reputation and selling it as a sedan sport car taking the advantage of their sport car experience. The Taycan is for those with lots of money and want to be associated with Porsche. There really isn't a technical reason to pay over a $100,000 more for it over the Tesla S.

Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.

nberry:

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Guy's, your prejudice is showing. The comparisons on paper have meanful data. While it is true that some of the Tesla performance numbers are one off, in real driving world experiences how often will someone be constantly accelerating at maximum throttle? The delta in price is one half. 

I'll be the first to acknowledge the Porsche is probably better engineered but is worth another $100,000 or more given what we know about the on paper comparisons? 

Stop thinking with your hearts and use your heads.

 

Nick, when they are not in the same price bracket, there shouldn’t be a comparison at all. If we use that comparison logic, then a Camry is a perfect competitor to a Mercedes S class, they both are ICE powered and seats 5, the Camry is $100k cheaper and is the Mercedes worth 100k more? 

Your comparison is faulty. The MB is a luxury car and the Camry is an economy car. The Tesla is considered a luxury EV with several years of experience in EV development. The Taycan is also considered luxury EV but importantly a first model product. YET, the Taycan is $100,000 more in price.

Porsche is pricing this car based on the initial demand (deposits). Also, they are factoring in the Porsche reputation and selling it as a sedan sport car taking the advantage of their sport car experience. The Taycan is for those with lots of money and want to be associated with Porsche. There really isn't a technical reason to pay over a $100,000 more for it over the Tesla S.

That argument is very weak. My Panamera is already quite expensive, but a Bentley Flying Spur cost quite a chunk more, apart from a different engine, both cars rides on the same platform. Also look at the BMW 7 series vs Rolls Royce Ghost, they share the same platform too and cost a big chunk more also. Using your logic, no one will buy the Bentley nor the Ghost. But Rolls Royce have a multi year wait list for the Ghost. Is there a technical reason to pay the much more for a Ghost or Flying Spur? I am comparing cars on the same platform which will have similar cost, the Taycan and Tesla aren't even on the same platform or company for that matters.

Tesla WAS considered a luxury EV before, as there was nothing on top of them in the food chain. But the fit and finish, and the materials used are definitely not luxury class. 

Porsche priced the Taycan to be a true Luxury EV, the one that sits at the very top of the food chain. 

Maybe Camry isn't that luxurious, but for the material usage and fit and finish, it's a perfect match to Tesla. We could move onto using Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti or Lexus as the comparable to Mercedes but the net result is the same, the formers are luxurious, but they aren't once the top dog goes into the ring. 

Porsche had always been a premium luxury brand, and every single premium luxury brand commands a price premium over lesser brands. Tesla the brand, it's definitely not Bentley Rolls Royce, and not Porsche Mercedes BMW Audi level, not Toyota cheap so they fit into the middle part of the food chain, where Acura Lexus Infiniti Cadillac sits. Porsche, Mercedes would have no problem selling a 300k car, but even BMW and Audi might have trouble doing that, Acura Infiniti Lexus definitely cannot. Same thing with Tesla. 

But with the price spread between the Taycan and the Model S, this actually create a nice hole for Tesla right now. It will be closed soon but if they are smart they can exploit that. Update the Model S interior, make it more luxurious, and jack up the price to fill that gap between it and the top dog. They can do that until Audi brings the e-Tron GT into the market. 

--

Elon Musk

@elonmusk

Model S on Nürburgring next week

Topspeed:

Elon Musk

@elonmusk

Model S on Nürburgring next week

Makes you wonder how modified that 'production' Model S will be 

So I did more reading up.

Taycan has a 93.4kWh battery gross. But Porsche limits it to only 83.7kWh usable, leaving over 10% as reserve. 

Now those 10% unused cells I think plays a big role in the performance side. First of all they are the spares for when some of the cells go bad. I also think the ECU rotates the spares, to even battery wear and better manage cell temperature, there is always 10% of the cells not being stressed. 

Or, if they do it another way, each cells are only charged to 90% instead of 100%, so quicker charge time. But I think this scenario is not likely. 

So in reality whatever range the Taycan is rated at, it was from 83.7kWh, not 93.4kWh.

Also interesting is that the Turbo S model's Overboost function is pretty much 10% more power than the Turbo's. 

Couldn't find Tesla's net usage capacity anywhere but I found this article:

https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla-teardown-100-kwh-battery-pack/

Model S P100 has a 102.4kWh battery but Tesla elected to use 96.1% of the whole pack, leaving less than 4% as reserve. So Tesla is stressing their packs a lot more than Porsche to maximize the range and performance. 

Maybe it has to do with the low voltage cut-off.  Running the batteries all the way down has some really negative consequences.  So, if they require recharging while there is still 10% capacity remaining, it improves longevity of the cells.

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

Maybe it has to do with the low voltage cut-off.  Running the batteries all the way down has some really negative consequences.  So, if they require recharging while there is still 10% capacity remaining, it improves longevity of the cells.

Typically, 100% SoC will not be reached to maintain cell health over a suitably long life.  Porsche’s numbers are reminiscent of those employed by Audi, suggest that the Volkswagen Group has a particular standard in place for its quality standards. Also by note charging to the real 100% SoC, Porsche optimizes its rate of charge profile, minimizing the taper that occurs beyond 80% SoC.  

In other news, Musk is threatening to take a Model S to Nürburgring next week. Not sure if this is ballsy trust in his engineers or unmitigated hubris.

nberry:

The Tesla is considered a luxury EV

Are you sure  I feel it is more a family kind of car. Lower budget than the best cars in class (next year there will more EVs  in the premium segment added to the Taycan, Mercedes in particular).

Interesting visual comparison of the new Porsche Taycan and the Audi e-tron GT...

Link:  https://www.quattrodaily.com/photo-comparison-porsche-taycan-vs-audi-e-tron-gt/

Is it the same plattform?

Kobalt:

Is it the same plattform?

Yes. Audi will be using the Mission E platform for the e-Tron GT. Including the next generation 800V system. 

MKSGR:

nberry:

The Tesla is considered a luxury EV

Are you sure  I feel it is more a family kind of car. Lower budget than the best cars in class (next year there will more EVs  in the premium segment added to the Taycan, Mercedes in particular).

I think this Tesla being considered a luxury car is more is an US thing because of the pricetag and different definition of luxury, just like sporty in US is associated with 0-60 times and here in Europe it's actual performance and handling instead. No many here in Europe will consider a Tesla a luxury car with that interior and finish.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

The Audi looks better 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

This hurts,

I teach my kids that Audi's are on the roads for us to overtake - that is their sole purpose. (Flame suit on)

And now, in my opinion, the e-Tron just needs a proper nose job and it would look rather good.

IMO Porsche is more clean and elegant than the AUDI!

The Audi in the pictures above is over-designed bordering the vulgar.

The Taycan is a successful design. It keeps the recognizable Porsche styling cues but at the same time it is less conservative than usual with hints of the avant-garde.

The Taycan will be a sales success. It will be the "must have" EV. I am sure it will be followed by an SUV

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

farina:

We are certainly not on the same planet! But in Germany we say: „Über Geschmack lässt sich nicht streiten!“ 

If you like it, buy it!

That's simply the German version of the Latin "De Gustibus non est disputandum."

ALDO:

So who is going to order a Taycan? 

Turbo too expensive. Will wait for the S version later on, and decide based on price/performance. I like the car with only 2 caveats: the "running mascara" look on the edge of the headlights, and the touch controls in the center console. I held off on placing my GT4 order to see what this car would look like (yes, I know, totally different cars/experiences...)

I am slightly concerned that there is not an overhang / shade contour on top of the instrument binnacle in front of the driver. 

reginos:

The Audi in the pictures above is over-designed bordering the vulgar.

The Taycan is a successful design. It keeps the recognizable Porsche styling cues but at the same time it is less conservative than usual with hints of the avant-garde.

The Taycan will be a sales success. It will be the "must have" EV. I am sure it will be followed by an SUV

That is typical of Audi’s concepts and the production versions have suitably more subtle grille areas.   One will need to wait for the production version reveal before making additional comments. 

Still a bit surprised by the lack of comments on Musk’s statement yesterday that he is taking a Model S to the Nürburgring next week, evidently to top the Taycan’s time.

l

CGX car nut:

 

Still a bit surprised by the lack of comments on Musk’s statement yesterday that he is taking a Model S to the Nürburgring next week, evidently to top the Taycan’s time.

l

Maybe because everyone in here is fed up with the Tesla-thing? 

997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 

spudgun:

CGX car nut:

 

Still a bit surprised by the lack of comments on Musk’s statement yesterday that he is taking a Model S to the Nürburgring next week, evidently to top the Taycan’s time.

l

Maybe because everyone in here is fed up with the Tesla-thing? 

Understood, but still a weird comment, even from Musk.  

Nice design - just the rims I am not sure about.