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    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    What will they use? I hope an A6 platform, or A8, because they are already aluminum:) dont use the stupid VW ones! That engine is so perfect for this! its at 450-500 NOW, imagine where in 3 years! And are they showing a prototype? What will they be doing for 3 years?



    Since using one developed by Porsche is too optimistic, I wish they use at least the Audi's A8's aluminum too, but rumor is they will use the Continental GT's platform, which is a nice way of saying they are actually using a VW Phaeton's platform.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    How can any porsche be in the 30K range!!! as a full size sedan! This can't be right, maybe that was when (as I recall, could be wrong) there was talk of an even cheaper roadster, in the class of that smart roadster etc...the sedan will HAVE to be at least 75K to go up against the M5, and I think it will use an audi platform, I think the GT was considered more for a 2+2 wasnt it?

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    which is a nice way of saying they are actually using a VW Phaeton's platform.



    I hope they'd go with the Audi's A8 too. At least in the engine dept. Audi has done a good job the proof of it is the Cayenne's engine that is based (Derived ) on Audi RS6.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    What will they use? I hope an A6 platform, or A8, because they are already aluminum:) dont use the stupid VW ones! That engine is so perfect for this! its at 450-500 NOW, imagine where in 3 years! And are they showing a prototype? What will they be doing for 3 years?



    Since using one developed by Porsche is too optimistic, I wish they use at least the Audi's A8's aluminum too, but rumor is they will use the Continental GT's platform, which is a nice way of saying they are actually using a VW Phaeton's platform.



    Well, there have been rumors that the Phaeton's platform is based on Porsche's 989 project, so maybe in a roundabout way Porsche would be using one of their own platforms. I wish I had a picture to post, but the original Phaeton concept car looked very much like a 989.

    --Gavin.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    sign me up for one!

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Looking forward to that car! I still have my doubts that the Cont. GT basis is such a good idea, judging by Phaeton and GT performance and especially WEIGHT!

    I don't hope that a 4-door Porsche is in the same weight range as the above mentioned. Otherwise they can save the use of aluminium parts with the comment that it won't effect the performance on a 2.5 ton - vehicle...

    By the way, wasn't the first 356 successor developed as a true 4-seater also?

    Reg. profits on cars:
    Mercedes definately makes way more profit on the upper-class variants of the particular model range. The S600 doesn't cost twice as much in development or production than the base model, despite the price tag! Of course based on sales numbers the results may look different but sometimes I doubt that it is the right way - for example for BMW - to go to lower classes to increase sales. Premium manufacturers are about premium cars, they shouldn't move into non-premium markets without some thought!

    Greetings!

    Re: 4th Model line.

    We know from W.W. that the 4th Porsche is not going to be an inexpensive sports car. So it will be a 4 passenger, but will it have 2 or 4 doors?

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    doncapecod said:
    We know from W.W. that the 4th Porsche is not going to be an inexpensive sports car. So it will be a 4 passenger, but will it have 2 or 4 doors?



    If Porsche builds a 2 door coupe version of the 4 door sedan, will that make it a front engined 4 wheel drive 911?
    Another new model maybe?

    Re: 4th Model line.

    I heard from a very reliable source, that the new car is going to be co-developed with VW again. The VW Project C will be a Sedan slightly larger than the actual Passat, ranging on the Mercedes E Class and BMW 5 serie. Porsche actual competitior will be the Mercedes CLS.... more sporty than the VW, but same size!

    The cars will not be developed by Porsche. Like on the Cayenne only the completion and mountage will be done in Leipzig.

    L@rs

    Re: 4th Model line.

    I wonder if VW's recent hiring of Wolfgang Bernhard would be relevant to this plan. He would certainly be familiar with Mercedes products and plans. VW had previously stated they had no interest in Bernhard but now it seems he will become head of the entire VW division. See this story in TheCarConnection.

    Also of interest is this interview with Wiedeking in Paris by AutoWeek: web page. He says a decision on the 4th model will be made next year and he prefers to build it in Leipzig. He also says it will also likely share components with existing models and this has to mean the Cayenne.

    I have also read somewhere of VW plans for a new model, larger than the Passant, but I can't seem to locate it right now. The Passant is to be revised next year. The W8 will be dropped.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    GM Austin... exactly! The W8 will be dropped but as the Passat has the size of an E-Class but the price tag of a C-Class, VW wants to put a more exclusive car in place - in the middle between Passat and Phaeton.

    Bernhard will hold a C-Level without any business area for the next 2 years, after that he is dealed as Pitschesrieder successor. As far as I know the joint venture about the Porsche/VW codevelopment is already closed!

    L@rs

    Re: 4th Model line.

    The projected VW model between Phaeton and Passat was temporarily projected on Maserati's transaxle platform. In return Audi was supposed to provide AWD and V8 diesel-engines to the Italian brand for their upcoming SUV model (if this will ever happen)!

    I am not sure if it is a downside or advantage if the platform will be shared. At least it sounds much better than usng the Phaeton/Cont GT's basis. I would strongly recommend that Porsche develops the suspension on their own, at least for their model! The SUV was an impressive "foreplay".

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    I have also read somewhere of VW plans for a new model, larger than the Passat, but I can't seem to locate it right now. The Passat is to be revised next year. The W8 will be dropped.



    Actually GM, VW has already been producing this car for a couple of years, and calls it the PHAETON.

    Unfortunately, most of the people who should be buying this car also seem not to have noticed that it is in production, because they are extremely rare on the roads, even here in their home market.

    Re: 4th Model line.



    No, something inbetween the Phaeton and Passant.

    Yes, the Phaeton seems dead in the water.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    It seems the new VW, slotted between the Passant and Phaeton, has been put on hold. See this article in TheCarConnection (web page):


    Quote:
    Volkswagen Puts "C1" On Hold

    The Wall Street Journal also reported yesterday that a potential new VW sedan under consideration as a gap-bridger between the Passat and Phaeton has been put on hold. The 5-Series competitor, dubbed in the motoring press as the C1, won't be manufactured in the next five years, Volkswagen told the WSJ. While VW is working on closing the gap between the two models, the addition of the C1 would have sapped VW product-development money at a time when the company is working fervently to launch new versions of its bread-and-butter Passat and Golf/Jetta lineups. VW is also negotiating with its labor force to cut costs by 30 percent, in the hopes of saving jobs it may otherwise have to cut.




    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    It seems the new VW, slotted between the Passant and Phaeton, has been put on hold.
    Quote:

    Volkswagen Puts "C1" On Hold
    The Wall Street Journal reported yesterday that a potential new VW sedan under consideration as a gap-bridger between the Passat and Phaeton has been put on hold.
    ... VW is working on closing the gap between the two models, ......



    Considering the Phaeton isn't selling at all, and the Passat is not selling anything like it used to, that isn't so much a "gap" as a Grand Canyon. Anything VW tries to throw in there would disappear without trace anyway.

    Maybe they should try harder at building the Audi brand. The name has more basic credibility in that sector than VW is ever likely to have.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Grand Canyon!

    That's great Fritz.

    And, BTW, I have seen that you are making very good use of that new forehead slapping emoticon.

    I think you should just add it to your signature and be done with it.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    And, BTW, I have seen that you are making very good use of that new forehead slapping emoticon.


    Yeh, I've really taken a shine to that one. I apologize in advance if I overuse it in the near future.
    We need more great emoticons on rennteam.
    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    I think you should just add it to your signature and be done with it.


    Can you really do that?
    GM, that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, was it?
    Guess Carlos was right. It is contagious.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Interesting.... we'll see!

    Don't think that Porsche can afford a complete self-development of a new car!

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Whoever Porsche partners with for their 4th model should be someone other than VW..and break the mold, so to speak.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    A partnership with BMW might be interesting, if highly unlikely. The interesting part is that both companies would happily outsource the entire vehicle production to Magna Steyr.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Well, IF porsche is going to build a 4door sedan, it better be better and faster than the M5... I already have a hard time trying to convince my friends that 911's are coller than M5's :-S
    -Joost-

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    doncapecod said:
    Whoever Porsche partners with for their 4th model should be someone other than VW..and break the mold, so to speak.



    What is wrong with VW? VW has been Porsche's "traditional" partner for many decades. I know that VW doesn't have a good reputation in the US but Americans should be reminded of the fact that VW owns Bentley, Audi and Lamborghini. And believe me, you would be surprised to learn how many VW parts are on an Audi and vice versa. There isn't much difference in quality. Not to forget about the fact that Mr. Piech is the son of Porsche's sister and that he was deeply involved in Weissach development decades ago. Not to speak about his reputation as a technical fanatic and a very knowledgable "technical" man. This has influenced VW a lot over the past years, quality surely is much higher now than it was many years ago. And it is definetely better than the products of their competitors like Opel (GM) and Fiat (remember Ferrari? ).

    I have to admit that I don't understand the negative image of VW in the US but maybe it has to do with the name Volkswagen (people's car). Some people in the States still seem to believe that all Bavarians are wearing short leather trousers but of course we Germans have our prejudices too and we should call it even.

    I also don't understand why there is so much hype about the Mercedes E 55 AMG and especially the new CLS 55 AMG and BMW M5 but at the same time, people say it is a bad thing that Porsche wants to build a 4-door sports sedan.
    I think that a sports sedan "fits" Porsche much better than a SUV, don't you think so?!

    The only problem I see with a Porsche sports sedan is the fact that it would need to be the most sporty sports sedan on this planet. And with tough competition from Mercedes, BMW and even Audi, it won't be easy for Porsche.

    They need a sports sedan with an attractive but not too "screaming" exterior, incorporating the Porsche corporate design. They also need a car with minimum 500 HP because I doubt they can push the weight below M5 figures.
    And I'm not sure they can "afford" building "low power" variants like they did with the Cayenne. So the Porsche sports sedan base model would need to have around 1800 kg weight, minimum 500 HP power and a sophisticated traction system because 4WD would be impossible at 1800 kg weight.
    The price tag is another problem, they can't charge much more than BMW and Mercedes do charge for their top class limousines. This is a tough market.

    I think that a decision FOR a 4-door sports sedan has been already taken but it hasn't been announced yet because Porsche doesn't know yet if they develop it alone or with a partner. I'm pretty sure Porsche will announce details as soon as all details are established and are ready to be published in the press.
    I'm just afraid that VW set a very bad example of sedan development with the Phaeton, so I'm pretty sure that the new partner will be again VW because VW needs to reduce weight on the Phaeton and they might even need a "smaller" sedan slightly above their Passat range because the Phaeton is a bit too big and too "luxurious" for VW.

    Time will tell if I'm right but one thing is for sure: Porsche faces tough criticism as soon as they announce the project. As always...

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    I have to admit that I don't understand the negative image of VW in the US but maybe it has to do with the name Volkswagen (people's car).



    I really believe much of this comes from the time of the Golf's introduction in the US. VW chose to manufacture the US Golf (VW Rabbit, at the time) in Pennsylvania and there were significant quality control problems. I owned one so I know first hand how bad it was. Those sorts of reputations are hard to live down. The reputation before that, built on the durable VW Beetle, was pretty good. VW had been seen as a manufacturer of a reliable but inexpensive form of transportation, much like Toyota today.

    And really, their current reputation is not so bad. I belive the perception of quality is generally ahead of GM here in the US as well. The Phaeton is just a different story. Poor marketing I think. It's like GM trying to introduce an upscale, high priced, luxurious Chevrolet. That probably wouldn't work either.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    ... I know that VW doesn't have a good reputation in the US ...



    That may have been in the past, by if you are a 16-21 year girl, then the Jetta is the car of choice. I think the fact that VW improved on their safety made them more popular with side/curtain airbags before it was popular with other car manufacturers. The problem with VW now is they have not improved their designs since 1999. The Jetta is very popular but now its a 6 year old design and their quality has improved but they still have a long way to go to the standards of Honda/Toyota.

    We Americans are very hard on European brands. Just look at Fiat, Citreon, Renault, and Opel. They all tried and failed in the US.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Time will tell if I'm right but one thing is for sure: Porsche faces tough criticism as soon as they announce the project. As always...



    Sure, but nobody takes Nick seriously anyway.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    And really, their current reputation is not so bad. I belive the perception of quality is generally ahead of GM here in the US as well.


    But then, who isn't ahead of GM in that regard?

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    The Phaeton is just a different story. Poor marketing I think. It's like GM trying to introduce an upscale, high priced, luxurious Chevrolet. That probably wouldn't work either.


    Unless they called it a Cadillac, of course.
    In which case it still wouldn't work either.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    The Jetta is very popular but now its a 6 year old design and their quality has improved but they still have a long way to go to the standards of Honda/Toyota.




    They still build the Jetta? I didn't know that.

    I need to visit a VW showroom. I'm overdue for a visit to a museum anyway.

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Ahem Fritz,

    the Jetta is the equivalent to the VW Vento in Europe - not the one you know badged "Jetta"!

    Re: 4th Model line.

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Ahem Fritz,

    the Jetta is the equivalent to the VW Vento in Europe - not the one you know badged "Jetta"!



    Ahem Ferdie,

    I did realise that the Jetta badge was still being used in the USA for the Vento!

    But ... how many new-looking Ventos do you really notice on our streets here?
    Based on an extremely non-scientific survey carried out by just driving along with my eyes open, and not using boring things like statistics, I don't get the impression that the Vento=Jetta is much of a barn-stormer in terms of sales!

    My post was intended to be ...ermm.... ironic.

     
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