Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders? - Page1

Oct 13, 2004 2:18:14 PM

MaxErnst: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 513, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004

998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

380 or more? 100 HP or more per liter how can Porsche be expected to do that in a "normal" engine of theirs?

Isn't there some limit to it? I mean would it be wise to _warrenty_ an relatively small displacement engine with all that tweeking?

Aren't they at a breaking point where the new _998_ is going to have a flat 8? Or will the 911 be shelved in favor of a midengine sucessor to the 911 with a V8?

Is Porsche's next move really a total mystery?

I bet there's a main-in-the-street (less expensive) version of the CGT in the works.

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Oct 14, 2004 12:05:07 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MaxErnst

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

I'm not sure what you mean.
The upcoming GT3 is already rumored at around 400 HP.
You don't mention normally aspirated engines, so I should tell you that there are some 996 Turbos driving around with 500-600 HP without major problems. So there is no real power limit to the flat six engine concept.

998? Why should we talk about the 998 if the 997 just showed up? Are you really serious about your posts or are you paid by BMW to create some kind of "diversion"?

If you're referring to the M96 engine generation: the 997 Carrera S already uses the new generation, the M97/01.
This engine should be good for at least 400 HP without turbo charging. A powerkit is rumored at 380 HP.
And with direct fuel injection, well, who knows...

I bet your next post would give a hint that the next M3 generation uses a V8 engine, so why shouldn't Porsche do the same...

The 911 is not the M3. And the 911 Carrera is not the GT3 or Turbo or GT2. The old apples and oranges story.

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Oct 14, 2004 12:20:11 AM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

The Brumos Datona Prototype cars that race in the Rolex series utilize a Porsche 911 GT3 RS-based six cylinder, 3.6-liter motor developing 470+ horsepower at 8500 rpm and are normaly aspirated. (who needs a turbo)
For 05 Porsche is working with them to develop a more competative engine.

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Oct 14, 2004 12:33:25 AM

MaxErnst: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 513, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

Quote:
RC said:
I'm not sure what you mean.
The upcoming GT3 is already rumored at around 400 HP.
You don't mention normally aspirated engines, so I should tell you that there are some 996 Turbos driving around with 500-600 HP without major problems. So there is no real power limit to the flat six engine concept.

998? Why should we talk about the 998 if the 997 just showed up? Are you really serious about your posts or are you paid by BMW to create some kind of "diversion"?
If you're referring to the M96 engine generation: the 997 Carrera S already uses the new generation, the M97/01.
This engine should be good for at least 400 HP without turbo charging. A powerkit is rumored at 380 HP.
And with direct fuel injection, well, who knows...

I bet your next post would give a hint that the next M3 generation uses a V8 engine, so why shouldn't Porsche do the same... The 911 is not the M3. And the 911 Carrera is not the GT3 or Turbo or GT2. The old apples and oranges story.

So the turbos and GTx all have standard warrenties?

Wouldn't adding two more cylinders be cheaper and more efficient that all that turbocharging, direct injection systems.

So basically Porsche is caught in a bind, if they make an 8 cylinder engine pumping out 400 easy-to-warrenty HP, then the turbos would all become less interesting to consumers.

IOW, it is an extremely complex feat of marketing and finance for Porsche to start producing 400+ hp Norm aspirated 911s?

The reason I mention "998" is that Porsche already knows what that model will be.

Since the 997 is already hailed a the 911 at the end of the line of perfection, maybe something like a mid engine 400+ hp v8 is in store to replace the 911.

IOW, the mass-market-performance-auto HP "wars" really have Porsche in a bind as far as their complete 911 model line is concerned.

It's almost impossible for them to have the 911 and give it more than the current 350HP.

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Oct 14, 2004 3:10:14 AM

MaxErnst: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 513, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004; Reply to: MaxErnst

HP wars: Porsche in a corner, 8 cyl mid engine 998?

Lemme put it this way.

Porsche is gonna be stingy with the HP increases on the 997/S because of the GTx and turbo cars, right?\

because they are stuck on the flat six the 400 HP normally aspirated engines are gonna be expensive and possibly prohibitive.

That means the Turbo engines are gonna be flat sixes and have to put out something like 450 hp, right?

All of a sudden eveything in this HP game has got Porsche up against a wall with a six cylinder engine.

Lot's of things like How can you warrenty a what has become a racing engine in a driver's car supposedly built to get 100 of thousands of miiles.

The way I see it, the only way for Porsche to be a contender in the HP war is to add two cylinders (cheap and reliable). How are they are gonna do this in the 911?

Seems to me that a mid-engine eight cylinder engine is the most sensible (cheapest/ reliable) way to get a 400 HP Porsche that "we" can afford. We+ the guys who don't want to spend more than $100K on a "mere" sports car.

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Oct 14, 2004 1:25:53 PM

BMCG: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 28, 2003; Reply to: MaxErnst

Re: HP wars: Porsche in a corner, 8 cyl mid engine 998?

To realise greater horsepower in a normally aspirated engine at constant displacement requires increasing engine speed (ie: rpm).

Unfortunately as one moves beyond ~9000 rpm, metallurgy choices start becoming esoteric, with a resultant rapid increase in cost.

In the F1 world 3.0liters can produce ~850 bhp at ~20,000rpm, albeit requiring an engine budget equivalent to the GDP of a small country. Naturally, this is without any regard to emission levels...

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Oct 14, 2004 3:50:16 PM

avedon: Junior; Loc: spain; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

Rc,

When you say there will be a powerkit,do you think this can be retrofitable.

sorry if my question is a stupid one...

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Oct 14, 2004 5:34:24 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: MaxErnst

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

Quote:
MaxErnst said:
So basically Porsche is caught in a bind, if they make an 8 cylinder engine pumping out 400 easy-to-warrenty HP

Since the 997 is already hailed a the 911 at the end of the line of perfection, maybe something like a mid engine 400+ hp v8 is in store to replace the 911.

HP is more related to displacement and rpm rather than the # of cylinders in NA engine.

I don't think 911 will ever be replaced even if there is an non-limited higher performace Porsche model (if it happens).

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Oct 14, 2004 8:08:09 PM

Jeff (in SF): Pilot; Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States; Posts: 340, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: MaxErnst

This is nothing new.....

Quote:
MaxErnst said:
Lemme put it this way.

Porsche is gonna be stingy with the HP increases on the 997/S because of the GTx and turbo cars, right?\

because they are stuck on the flat six the 400 HP normally aspirated engines are gonna be expensive and possibly prohibitive.

That means the Turbo engines are gonna be flat sixes and have to put out something like 450 hp, right?

All of a sudden eveything in this HP game has got Porsche up against a wall with a six cylinder engine.

Lot's of things like How can you warrenty a what has become a racing engine in a driver's car supposedly built to get 100 of thousands of miiles.

The way I see it, the only way for Porsche to be a contender in the HP war is to add two cylinders (cheap and reliable). How are they are gonna do this in the 911?

Seems to me that a mid-engine eight cylinder engine is the most sensible (cheapest/ reliable) way to get a 400 HP Porsche that "we" can afford. We+ the guys who don't want to spend more than $100K on a "mere" sports car.

Porsche has ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS increased the 911's horsepower in small increments. Even when they switched from aircooled 3.6 to watercooled 3.4, the power went from 282 to 296. True there is a horsepower war underway at Mercedes and BMW. There were similar horsepower wars in the 60's with big block V8's (Corvette, GTO, Mustang, Cobra, etc.) - that didn't affect the 356 and first generation 911 sales. Most people buy Porsches for more reasons than just horsepower. Evidently you're not one of them.

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Oct 14, 2004 8:09:26 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: avedon

Re: 998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

Quote:
avedon said:
Rc,

When you say there will be a powerkit,do you think this can be retrofitable.

sorry if my question is a stupid one...

I don't know, honestly. I just heard that Exclusive department plans to make ANY upcoming powerkit, no matter if it is for the 997 Carrera S or any other model, retrofittable. They "lost" a lot of money because they 996 Turbo powerkit wasn't retrofittable due to the required new gearbox. Although they (unofficially?) offered a retrofit to customers who were able to bring their cars to Exclusice at Werk 1 in Zuffenhausen, they had a lot of requests but weren't able to satisfy them.

Yes, I think that a 997 Carrera S powerkit will be retrofittable if they offer one but I also think that the price tag will be pretty high too.
The new M97/01 engine offers a lot of potential for power upgrades, I heard that a few mapping changes including exchanging the exhaust system and cats would increase power at least by "true" 20 HP without major reliability issues. Not bad.

Porsche always leaves "room" for facelifts and upgrades. And we have to see what kind of engine the new 997 GT3 is using. Because the most expensive "single" part on the GT3 was always the engine. If Porsche really decides to use the M97 engine for the GT3, we know what the M97 engine is capable of. But all infos I have indicate the "old" 993/GT2 engine.

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Oct 14, 2004 8:11:37 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

Re: This is nothing new.....

I have a feeling that an upcoming oil crisis will 'solve' the HP wars problem..

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Oct 14, 2004 8:21:53 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
brunner said:
I have a feeling that an upcoming oil crisis will 'solve' the HP wars problem..

brunner, there is no oil crisis and there won't be an oil crisis any time soon unless some terrorist lunatics blow up all oil fields worldwide.

It is all about money, high demand and people willing to pay. I know a guy who is working in the oil industry in the middle east and he told me that demand is very high and that his boss (a well known arab zillionaire and sheikh) told him that he would be really dumb if his company wouldn't take advantage of the current situation of high demand and high production to earn himself a golden nose.

There still is enough oil and we shouldn't forget about the still unused oil fields which weren't attractive enough to get oil from because of high extraction cost.

Maybe Francois (fanch) could provide a little insight regarding the current oil crisis which actually isn't one.

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Oct 14, 2004 8:45:54 PM

Captain Bady: Veteran; Loc: London; Posts: 888, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
brunner said:
I have a feeling that an upcoming oil crisis will 'solve' the HP wars problem..

brunner, there is no oil crisis and there won't be an oil crisis any time soon unless some terrorist lunatics blow up all oil fields worldwide. It is all about money, high demand and people willing to pay. I know a guy who is working in the oil industry in the middle east and he told me that demand is very high and that his boss (a well known arab zillionaire and sheikh) told him that he would be really dumb if his company wouldn't take advantage of the current situation of high demand and high production to earn himself a golden nose.

There still is enough oil and we shouldn't forget about the still unused oil fields which weren't attractive enough to get oil from because of high extraction cost.

Maybe Francois (fanch) could provide a little insight regarding the current oil crisis which actually isn't one.

you took my words out my mouth...

100 % agree!

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Oct 14, 2004 9:12:07 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
brunner said:
I have a feeling that an upcoming oil crisis will 'solve' the HP wars problem..

brunner, there is no oil crisis

I knew i wasn't too clear

No, there's not an oil crisis now. It won't be any in the near future. But at some point in the future a crisis similar to that of the '70s WILL happen. Life and world economy are cyclic

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Oct 14, 2004 9:32:52 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: brunner

Re: This is nothing new.....

I'm sure the current oil worker's strike in a large oil producer but unstable country as Nigeria and the "threat" of a special tax on foreign oil companies on Venezuela by the Castro-loving "president" Chavez have a lot to do with the incertainty of supply causing the latest demand/price increase now added to the middle-east situation. It will be a long while for the prices to go back down.

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Oct 14, 2004 10:27:55 PM

MaxErnst: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 513, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004; Reply to: brunner

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
brunner said:
I have a feeling that an upcoming oil crisis will 'solve' the HP wars problem..

brunner, there is no oil crisis

I knew i wasn't too clear
No, there's not an oil crisis now. It won't be any in the near future. But at some point in the future a crisis similar to that of the '70s WILL happen. Life and world economy are cyclic

I read somewhere a while ago that there's enough oil in the ground (known reserves) to supply the world's oil demands at the projected rate of expansion for the next 100 years!!!

Any shortage/crisis befor then is going to be totally political

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Oct 14, 2004 10:31:43 PM

MaxErnst: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 513, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004; Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
Most people buy Porsches for more reasons than just horsepower. Evidently you're not one of them.

ZING!!!

I provided no evidence for you to arrive at that _erroneous_ conclusion

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Oct 15, 2004 3:13:14 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

Re: This is nothing new.....

Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:
...There were similar horsepower wars in the 60's with big block V8's (Corvette, GTO, Mustang, Cobra, etc.) - that didn't affect the 356 and first generation 911 sales. Most people buy Porsches for more reasons than just horsepower. Evidently you're not one of them.

I remember back in the 70's, some friends and I would go driving somewhere including one guy in a Corvette. Everyone else had 914s with their less than 100HP engines. Sure on the straights the Corvette would leave us in the dust, but come those mountain curves and we would not only catch up but pass the Corvette! HP is not everthing.

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998: How much HP can you get out of six cylinders?

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HP wars: Porsche in a corner, 8 cyl mid engine 998?

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This is nothing new.....

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