Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care? - Page2

Oct 6, 2004 5:53:02 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

I think its time you two continue this "old quarrel" between you two through Private Messages, no? or keep to the subject of the thread in respect to he rest of us members who don't want to read it. You both brought good points to the thread initially, lets continue

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Oct 6, 2004 6:32:08 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I think its time you two continue this "old quarrel" between you two through Private Messages, no? or keep to the subject of the thread in respect to he rest of us members who don't want to read it. You both brought good points to the thread initially, lets continue

Well if you look back, who was the one starting all this baby crap? MAKO was....he needs to grow up and realize this is a message board....I'm done. But I bet he's not....

Sorry to any I may have offended.

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Oct 6, 2004 7:47:25 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
...Does anybody do any research before posting? Look around, at Ferraris website and read some of the stories about the F430. The Chassis is MUCH stiffer then the 360s was. Almost 1/2 of it is new....

Whoa, being in a rush lately?
Does somebody calm down before posting...?

Which part of the chassis do you consider new? And since when should you listen to companies' websites? I'd say that there are more informative sources than that!

Greetings!

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Oct 6, 2004 8:12:31 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
...Does anybody do any research before posting? Look around, at Ferraris website and read some of the stories about the F430. The Chassis is MUCH stiffer then the 360s was. Almost 1/2 of it is new....

Whoa, being in a rush lately?
Does somebody calm down before posting...?

Which part of the chassis do you consider new? And since when should you listen to companies' websites? I'd say that there are more informative sources than that!

Greetings!

Ferrari claims the chassis to be 20 percent stiffer than that of the 360.

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Oct 6, 2004 8:28:04 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Thanks Rossi,

but stiffer in which way? I suppose they talk about torsional rigidity, which should be about the most important one on a sportscar - it doesn't have a lot to do with structural stiffness - especially on a sideimpact.

Anyways, any numbers out? I would like to know the stiffness, and even if it is only the torsional one, compared to the Porsche models - since they were mentioned that often on this board! You can measure these numbers so there is no further comment needed.

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Oct 6, 2004 9:22:42 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Porsche claims the 997 is 8% stiffer torsionally than the 996 and 40% in flex resistance. And the Porsche 911 Turbo has a torsional stiffnes of 27,000 Nm/degree. Thats all I know. Any figures for the F430?

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Oct 7, 2004 7:47:59 AM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

LOL, still waiting on links to all those crashed Gallardos tough guy.

You weren't pulling those out of your a$$ like you did your fantasy about carbon-ceramic brakes shortening stopping distances over steel systems were you Camaro-boy? The whole board had a nice chuckle at your "personal expertice" on that one.

I suspect I'll be waiting for those links a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

Anyway, back to speaking with actual owners now, The Gallardo offers far more safety in a side-impact scenario than an F430 due to multiple reasons. I doubt that's important to any of either of these cars' customers, but as I get older it's become more important to me. I also believe that the Gallardo's AWD system is more dumba$$-proof than any of the RWD competitors, particularly in adverse weather conditions. The penalty though is that the car doesn't feel as alive in your hands, at least it doesn't to me versus a 360CS for instance.

I can live with that. The pros outweigh the cons in my particular case.

MAKO

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Oct 7, 2004 10:50:50 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Thanks Rossi,

but stiffer in which way? I suppose they talk about torsional rigidity, which should be about the most important one on a sportscar - it doesn't have a lot to do with structural stiffness - especially on a sideimpact.

Anyways, any numbers out? I would like to know the stiffness, and even if it is only the torsional one, compared to the Porsche models - since they were mentioned that often on this board! You can measure these numbers so there is no further comment needed.

From the Ferrari Owners Site:

"The spaceframe chassis consists of a mix of aluminium extrusions, panelling cast nodes and has been completely revised using finite element analysis to further reinforce key areas. Chassis rigidity, which is indispensable for optimal handling, has been increased by 20% in terms of torsion and by 8% in terms of flexure. Just like with a F1 monocoque, the increased structural rigidity means that only the suspension absorbs asperities from the road surface. This in turn means that there is no deformation of the chassis to interfer with the car's road-holding in cornering, braking or under acceleration. The improvements to the chassis have also brought the car's passive safety features up to excellent standards. A minimal increase in overall chassis weight of 10% has enabled Ferrari's engineers to increase the resistance to front-end impact by 37% (in compliance with US standard 301) and to rear-end impact by an astonishing 105%. "

Anybody knows the numbers for the Modena?

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Oct 7, 2004 11:37:43 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
increase the resistance to front-end impact by 37% (in compliance with US standard 301) and to rear-end impact by an astonishing 105%. "

Side impact?

Quote:
Just like with a F1 monocoque, the increased structural rigidity means that only the suspension absorbs asperities from the road surface

Just like with a F1 car, the F430 has 4 wheels

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Oct 7, 2004 12:21:12 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
increase the resistance to front-end impact by 37% (in compliance with US standard 301) and to rear-end impact by an astonishing 105%. "

Side impact?

I was referring to the chassis rigidity.

As I said before, I don't believe in Ferrari's words that their cars don't need side bags.

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Oct 7, 2004 12:55:28 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
rossi said:
...As I said before, I don't believe in Ferrari's words that their cars don't need side bags.

Thanks rossi, so we're not that far apart in our opinions!

I found the text by myself yesterday evening. I am cautious on that one but I suspect that the given percentage is common in chassis development - just look at the 996 vs. 997 numbers.

After all, there are no comments about chassis rigidity of the 360! Aluminium chassis are usually built a little stiffer since the material itself is not as rigid as steel - the Audi A8 for example, despite having a very stiff chassis in frontal collisions - had a rather low torsional rigidity according to Volkswagen. That's why the Phaeton is supposed to be that heavy - it just doesn't flex at 300 kph!
That's what I was told by a VW representative!

Greetings!

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Oct 7, 2004 2:33:21 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
rossi said:
Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
increase the resistance to front-end impact by 37% (in compliance with US standard 301) and to rear-end impact by an astonishing 105%. "

Side impact?

I was referring to the chassis rigidity.

I know, but it was funny how they skipped mentioning the side impact resistence

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Oct 7, 2004 4:49:42 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Thanks rossi, so we're not that far apart in our opinions!

I found the text by myself yesterday evening. I am cautious on that one but I suspect that the given percentage is common in chassis development - just look at the 996 vs. 997 numbers.

After all, there are no comments about chassis rigidity of the 360!

Yeah, I think we're quite close.

I'm almost sure that Ferrari presented some data about the rigidity of the Modena when it was presented back in 1999. If I'll find the time, I'll do some research in my literature. One is for sure, the Modena is a very rigid car.

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Oct 7, 2004 9:36:27 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Still waiting for the links showing how poorly the Gallardo fared in recent accidents...

LOL

Rossi, you and the rest are missing the point on side impact as it pertains to this discussion. Chassis rigidity has nothing to do with reducing head impact trauma through the driver's side window, which causes 90% of the fatalities in a side impact according to the NHI.

Put simply, a vehicle that rides slightly higher than yours hits you on the driver's side, your head goes through the passenger window and impacts either on the top of the other car/truck's hood, or if it's high enough, straight into the the steel grill/bumper.

THAT is the issue here, and how side impact airbags prevent head trauma from occurring or from being as severe. In slow motion films I've seen from the NHI's 35MPH side impact crash tests, the test dummy's head crashes through the passenger window with such force that it actually dents the metal of the of oncomming car's hood/bumper. That's amazing to me.

All the side impact door beams in the world and improved chassis rigidity have no lessening affect on the real threat: high speed impacts between your head and the front of another car.

I think it's worth it. And I won't own another car that gets more than 2k miles put on it a year that doesn't have them. I can see it if you're driving the F430 only on Sundays, or not using it to commute to the office for fun a couple days a week. But any more than that and you're spinning the roulette wheel in a way that I personally wouldn't.

MAKO

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Oct 8, 2004 12:21:02 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Mako88

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Mako88 said:
LOL, still waiting on links to all those crashed Gallardos tough guy.

You weren't pulling those out of your a$$ like you did your fantasy about carbon-ceramic brakes shortening stopping distances over steel systems were you Camaro-boy? The whole board had a nice chuckle at your "personal expertice" on that one.

I suspect I'll be waiting for those links a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

Anyway, back to speaking with actual owners now, The Gallardo offers far more safety in a side-impact scenario than an F430 due to multiple reasons. I doubt that's important to any of either of these cars' customers, but as I get older it's become more important to me. I also believe that the Gallardo's AWD system is more dumba$$-proof than any of the RWD competitors, particularly in adverse weather conditions. The penalty though is that the car doesn't feel as alive in your hands, at least it doesn't to me versus a 360CS for instance.

I can live with that. The pros outweigh the cons in my particular case.

MAKO

Do your own searchs, Lambo fanboy and overall troll.....
I have a job and don't have the time to aid you childish outbursts. Being that your still in school look up the info yourself....

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Oct 8, 2004 7:55:17 AM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

The F430 weights 1450 kg... thats a lot for an alluminium car.

Head&Side Airbags shouldn't be any discussion, they just have to be installed.

AND - Ferrari should give an option to the customers, if they want to put in 30 kg more or not.... BTW - the side airbag of an 996 has 550 gramm.... I just have put one onto the weight!

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Oct 8, 2004 8:59:31 AM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: Lars997

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Lars996 said:
The F430 weights 1450 kg... thats a lot for an alluminium car.

Head&Side Airbags shouldn't be any discussion, they just have to be installed.

AND - Ferrari should give an option to the customers, if they want to put in 30 kg more or not.... BTW - the side airbag of an 996 has 550 gramm.... I just have put one onto the weight!

lars ,dont tell me you took away your car airbag just because of this thread??? lol

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Oct 8, 2004 9:03:23 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: dhayek

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
dhayek said:
[lars ,dont tell me you took away your car airbag just because of this thread??? lol

Only the one of the passenger's side.

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Oct 8, 2004 12:43:05 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

No side airbags but Xenons are standard on the F430, how much do those weight

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Oct 8, 2004 12:58:29 PM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

No DYAKEK.. I had a spare part....

Carlos... agree... this is absolute stupid. And as I said - if it is to avoid weight, they should give the choice to the customer hands.

Anyway... I think it has something to do with testing-costs!

L@rs

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Oct 8, 2004 1:20:42 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
No side airbags but Xenons are standard on the F430, how much do those weight

The whole car is getting too fat with all those gizmos...

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Oct 8, 2004 2:44:29 PM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
No side airbags but Xenons are standard on the F430, how much do those weight

you are right carlos ,they weight at least 5 times more ,but i really dont think its a question of weight,that would be too unprofessional..

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Oct 8, 2004 4:25:19 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
rossi said:
The whole car is getting too fat with all those gizmos...

Well it sure doesn't show on the outside lines cause it looks fantastic!

Seriously though, with comments like "easier to drive" etc and all the gizmos, it looks like they may be targeting a bit bigger audience with the F430 and rely on the Stradale version for die-hards now. Any news on how many units will be produced compared to the F360? I know RC said 2000 in the first year, how many F360 in the fiorst year?

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Oct 8, 2004 4:33:38 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Well it sure doesn't show on the outside lines cause it looks fantastic! Seriously though, with comments like "easier to drive" etc and all the gizmos, it looks like they may be targeting a bit bigger audience with the F430 and rely on the Stradale version for die-hards now. Any news on how many units will be produced compared to the F360? I know RC said 2000 in the first year, how many F360 in the fiorst year?

Agreed, Carlos. F430 seems to be the allday sports car, whilst CS will be for die hard.
Don't know about the planned production numbers, 360 was something about 17.000 altogether, appr. 10.000 berlinetta.

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Oct 9, 2004 4:36:23 AM

ignacio: Junior; Loc: annapolis,maryland,usa , United States; Posts: 132, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 30, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

i wonder if there's any realistic chance of side/window airbags being offered in the 2006 model year? btw, i haven't gotten any response from ferrari customer service. disapointing- can anyone think of a way to get their attention constructively?

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Oct 11, 2004 8:31:39 AM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Quote:

Do your own searchs, Lambo fanboy and overall troll.....
I have a job and don't have the time to aid you childish outbursts. Being that your still in school look up the info yourself....

LOL, who needs that hardcore of a "job" to pay for an F-body??? I'm semi-retired at 33, working less than 10 hours a week, house paid off, three cars paid off, easy. Wasn't even tough. Took a little luck though.

No, you're the one that popped off about the Gallardo not being crash worthy kid, and now you'll have to prove. Nothing like a wet behind the ears 28-year old Camaro driver Ferrari-fanboy disparaging Lambo even though he's never driven or owned one, and manufacturing data out of thin air as some sort of authority (Carbon brakes thread, rofl).

You show us the links.

Like I said originally. We'll be waiting a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time for this poser to provide any backup for his mouth. Typical.

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Oct 11, 2004 8:35:53 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Mako88

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Mako,

have you been a professional in any kind of sports league?

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Oct 11, 2004 11:29:48 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Mako,

have you been a professional in any kind of sports league?

Ha! No, but close Ferdie. I sold a dot.com in November of 1999. It wasn't massive, I'm not a multi-millionaire, but it was enough to make life much much easier.

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Oct 12, 2004 12:24:43 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Mako88

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

Quote:
Mako88 said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Quote:

Do your own searchs, Lambo fanboy and overall troll.....
I have a job and don't have the time to aid you childish outbursts. Being that your still in school look up the info yourself....

LOL, who needs that hardcore of a "job" to pay for an F-body??? I'm semi-retired at 33, working less than 10 hours a week, house paid off, three cars paid off, easy. Wasn't even tough. Took a little luck though.

No, you're the one that popped off about the Gallardo not being crash worthy kid, and now you'll have to prove. Nothing like a wet behind the ears 28-year old Camaro driver Ferrari-fanboy disparaging Lambo even though he's never driven or owned one, and manufacturing data out of thin air as some sort of authority (Carbon brakes thread, rofl).

You show us the links.

Like I said originally. We'll be waiting a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time for this poser to provide any backup for his mouth. Typical.

Listen CHILD, I guarantee my house is worth TWICE what your trailer is, I HAVE driven and been in Ferraris, if you read you would have seen that, Just because your daddy buys you stuff doesn't mean you should think you earned anything. I have owned Audsi, BMWs, a Corvette....I choose the Camaro because I wanted a platform to make a drag car out of, I have other cars and a Harley as well, I choose to spread my weath out, sorry if your not that smart....so shut your mouth child..........I'm done with your internet baby crap.

Aren't there any mods on here????
Look at this kids posts, there all crap, bitching, complaining and being a general baby....

Sorry to any offened, but this guys a TROLL.

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Oct 12, 2004 6:45:54 AM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: no side/window airbags in f430--do you care?

calm down guys...keep your energy focused on car talking..i dont think anybody is interested to know who has money more than the other. keep it clean

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