Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Coming up next week.... - Page2

Oct 5, 2004 10:17:14 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002

Coming up next week....

Ferrari's junior supercar, the new F430, has been driven in Autocar this week, and we can exclusively reveal that it is not only 'the best road car they've ever made' but, on first impressions, more than a match for the car it was designed to beat - Lamborghini's Gallardo.

Autocar drives 'best Ferrari ever'

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Oct 5, 2004 11:23:40 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Coming up next week....

Some more:

"The 430's 'manettino' switch on the steering wheel altering the traction control is a direct lift from the Ferrari f1 car.The cabin of our test car had 4 point harnesses and carbon seats and trim, and the engine note does a better impression of an F1's top end rip than even the Gallardo's V10.But does all this work?? You may think this is lapse of journalistic cynicism, but i was utterly sucked in. Ferrari might have laid on the racing heritage with a trowell, but after the 430 every other manufacturer's efforts to play to a sporting heritage will look like pitiable fakery.The Gallardo is in trouble already, despite 40 yrs of credibilty. It's downsized -Murcielago styling is pure supercar and very hard to upstage , but the 430looks like a racecar inside and out and still makes the Lambo look like an upstart.....
they're hard to seperate on ride; both combine iron body control with fluency and compliance.So which is faster?The Gallardo has marginally more power [492BHP vs 483 BHP] and 33lb ft more torque [376 lb ft vs 343], peaking 750 RPM lower than the Ferrari's.It feels more flexible in gear but this seems less relevant when both have paddle shift manuals which goad you into a perfectly rev-matched downshift at every opportunity.. And when the engines are working at the top of their range the Ferrari's slight power to weight advantage-no 4 wheel drive- seems to count double;the throttle response more urgent, the kick in the backside even harder.Am i really about to write that a near 500 BHP Lambo feels slow? After the deft, light, frentic Ferrari it does; it's slower and slightly wooden.
But these are 1st impressions. They may have been coloured by the Ferrar's novelty, and the perception of its speed is skewed by an engine note which definately shades the Lambo's ,starting bassy and finishing with a shrill detonation at peak revs or on downchanges that we could hear for a full 5 seconds as it rolled up the sides of the valleys south of Maranello. I wish i could explain how utterly correct it felt to drive a red Ferrari and a Yellow Lambo in bright sunshine near as fast as they'd go over the italian mountain roads they were made for. I can't , so i'm going to take this key and do it again. I'll be driving the Gallardo , but i'll be thinking about the 430".

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Oct 5, 2004 7:50:45 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Coming up next week....

Poor, poor Lambo....The G is already dead it seems.
Great review!

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Oct 5, 2004 7:59:20 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

of course it beats the lambo, its a matter of weather or not it can beat the 996TT and more relavantly the 997 TT when it comes out.

the G can't even match the 996TT for overall rating...

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Oct 5, 2004 8:16:37 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
Moogle said:
of course it beats the lambo, its a matter of weather or not it can beat the 996TT and more relavantly the 997 TT when it comes out.

the G can't even match the 996TT for overall rating...

Well the G is its MAIN competor, price wise, class wise.

Well to many testers the 360 "beat" the 996TT as it is, the F430 sure as hell won't have any issues with it. I mean it's all a matter of taste, but after driving my friends 996TT I still prefer RWD, AWD will never be a true drivers car, and he agrees....he's selling it for a GT3. That being said, even a new 911 won't match the F430....

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Oct 5, 2004 8:54:30 PM

Radar: Co-Pilot; Loc: The Frozen North; Posts: 189, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Well the G is its MAIN competor, price wise, class wise.

Well to many testers the 360 "beat" the 996TT as it is, the F430 sure as hell won't have any issues with it. I mean it's all a matter of taste, but after driving my friends 996TT I still prefer RWD, AWD will never be a true drivers car, and he agrees....he's selling it for a GT3. That being said, even a new 911 won't match the F430....

Absolutely! In the hands of a professional driver, the 360 Modena would beat the 996 Turbo hands down. In the hands of a mere mortal, like most of us, it would be a totally different story. Of course, that's assuming anyone could at least drive these cars 5/10th. With the additional grip available through the e-diff on the F430, there is no doubt about its superiority over the Turbo.

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Oct 6, 2004 3:54:12 PM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: Radar

Re: Coming up next week....

modena performance better than a 996tt???????guys dont you read magazines or performance data sheets?i have a pure timing comparison between 20 supercars including murcielago,zonda,996tt x50 ,ferrari etc.. all i can tell you now is that the x50 was the fastest all around.i will scan it 2morow and post it

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Oct 6, 2004 4:54:23 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: dhayek

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
dhayek said:
modena performance better than a 996tt???????guys dont you read magazines or performance data sheets?i have a pure timing comparison between 20 supercars including murcielago,zonda,996tt x50 ,ferrari etc.. all i can tell you now is that the x50 was the fastest all around.i will scan it 2morow and post it

Yeah, the X50 with its 50 hp boost might be......We were refering to the standard 996TT without any options to boost hp....
It comes down to driving experience, and AWD offers little IMO.

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Oct 6, 2004 5:45:47 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

BluCamSS and Radar,

Have you any data to back up your claim that the F360 "beats" 996TT or are you just presenting speculations? cause you are completely misinformed or have been mislead. Just the standard 996TT (no X50 needed) out accelerates the F360 and out performs the F360 at the track (even in the hands of a pro). Don't let the passion get in the way of your reasoning

Here is a summary I just grabbed for you guys of how they both fair at accel, slalom, track times, skypad, etc:
http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp?useframe=comparison1d_e.asp?Car1=16%26Car2=4

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Oct 6, 2004 5:49:52 PM

ArunK: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 55, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

It is a false statement to say the 360 beats the 996TT. The 360 does not beat it in straight acceleration nor does it beat it on the race track. Talking about road versions of each car. I recently watched some Best Motoring Videos. In them they compare the 996TT to the 360. There was not one test that the 360 beat the 996TT. And in case some of you do not know the drivers are pros. The 996TT beat the 360 by a large margin on the track. It does not matter whether it is comparing the two in handling, performance or track times, acceleration times, etc. The 360 does not ever beat the Turbo. I like the 360. It is fun to drive, sounds great, looks great. But if you are debating the performance bad news if you want the 360 to be the winner it is not. I personally like both cars. But facts are facts 996 TT is faster.

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Oct 6, 2004 6:38:57 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: ArunK

Re: Coming up next week....

You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD. Ask most top drivers which car they prefer and they will say the 360. Anyway, the 360 is nomore....the F430 has superior performance.

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Oct 6, 2004 7:41:13 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL.

Absolutely, thats another matter, in which the F360 may be superior to the 996TT depending on who you ask. To each his own

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Oct 6, 2004 7:48:46 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD. Ask most top drivers which car they prefer and they will say the 360. Anyway, the 360 is nomore....the F430 has superior performance.

Dude, could you maybe comment on cars you've driven? If you haven't driven the TT, please do so first!

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Oct 6, 2004 8:25:51 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD. Ask most top drivers which car they prefer and they will say the 360. Anyway, the 360 is nomore....the F430 has superior performance.

Dude, could you maybe comment on cars you've driven? If you haven't driven the TT, please do so first!

I have driven the 996TT, many times, a good friend has one.......that's up for sale.

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Oct 6, 2004 10:30:25 PM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD. Ask most top drivers which car they prefer and they will say the 360. Anyway, the 360 is nomore....the F430 has superior performance.

sorry bluecam ,but the 996tt x50 even beats the 430..i will post the document 2morow..

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Oct 6, 2004 11:09:52 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: dhayek

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
dhayek said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD. Ask most top drivers which car they prefer and they will say the 360. Anyway, the 360 is nomore....the F430 has superior performance.

sorry bluecam ,but the 996tt x50 even beats the 430..i will post the document 2morow..

Must be some test considering the F430 HASN'T been avaliable for testing yet. Regardless, I could care how great a 911TT X50 is, it's still AWD. And that kills it for myself and most experienced drivers. The F430 is the better car, more top speed, better driver feel and involvement, and better brakes. P's- carbon-cermic brakes are inferior to F's.

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Oct 6, 2004 11:22:50 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

"better brakes"
Whishful thinking?

Out of the 13 996 variants, why are you talking only about the TT?

I see no one bringing the mighty GT2 to the table, which makes any ferrari bar the enzo run for his mommy (even in the driving feel aspect).
Before you ask: no, i didn't drive them. Neither did some of the people posting in this thread, and that didn't stop them from making bold statements

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Oct 6, 2004 11:26:50 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: brunner

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD

Now you're just talking rubbish. How old are you?
AWD has nothing to do with driving feel, the TT is more refined because that's how it was setup.

Generally, the only downside of the AWD is a bit of understeer and more weight compared to RWD. That's it. You clearly don't know the basics.

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Oct 6, 2004 11:27:43 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: brunner

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
brunner said:
"better brakes"
Whishful thinking?

Out of the 13 996 variants, why are you talking only about the TT?
I see no one bringing the mighty GT2 to the table, which makes any ferrari bar the enzo run for his mommy (even in the driving feel aspect).
Before you ask: no, i didn't drive them. Neither did some of the people posting in this thread, and that didn't stop them from making bold statements

Yup better brakes, P-carbo ceramic brakes have many issues.
And we were talking 360 class cars, from P that is the 911TT, maybe the X50, the GT2 is in a different class. That's a better car with its RWD....although it's handling is a little hairy and its resale isn't so great in the States.

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Oct 6, 2004 11:31:11 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: brunner

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD

Now you're just talking rubbish. How old are you?
AWD has nothing to do with driving feel, the TT is more refined because that's how it was setup.

Generally, the only downside of the AWD is a bit of understeer and more weight compared to RWD. That's it. You clearly don't know the basics.

Okay I am 28, and a certifed SCCA driver. I race autocross, drag, and road course. I have raced for nearly 12 years. ANYONE who says AWD "doesn't effect feel" is CLUELESS about driving and car dynamics.....or just a biased P fanboy.

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Oct 7, 2004 4:30:12 AM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

I always liked this one, shed a litle light on your discussion; great editing and nice sound.

http://www.lad.lv/~martini/porsche/Videos/FerrariF360Modenavs996Turbo.mpeg

Tom

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Oct 7, 2004 6:08:34 AM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Blucam,

I tend to agree with you on AWD. If you know how to drive on track AWD will disturb you. My next Porsche will be probably rear wheel drive though I will probably keep the TT as well.

As for what racing drivers prefer - they would take GT3 or GT2 or even simple 911 and not Modena. Sorry.

Also you said Porsche doesnt provide any excitement, you must be joking. somehow I dont see many Modenas on tracks, somehow the owners who opt for F cars dont like to drive it on the track. I wonder why? Too much exciting?

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Oct 7, 2004 6:14:08 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Must be some test considering the F430 HASN'T been avaliable for testing yet. Regardless, I could care how great a 911TT X50 is, it's still AWD. And that kills it for myself and most experienced drivers. The F430 is the better car, more top speed, better driver feel and involvement, and better brakes. P's- carbon-cermic brakes are inferior to F's.

"better car, more top speed, better driver feel and involvement, and better brakes..." I though you said it hasn't been available for testing yet... just joking

The GT2 is closer to the F430 than the 996TT by price range, closer by HP numbers, closer by drive type, closer by brakes type, closer by production numbers, ect... why do you say its in a different class while the 996TT is not?

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Oct 7, 2004 6:21:00 AM

iyori: Junior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 24, 2004; Reply to: lev

Re: Coming up next week....

I see a lot of Modenas on track in Japan.

Porsches are great and fun to drive but not as exstatic as
the Ferraris. I can't drive like a pro anyways so it doesn't really matter which is faster. Plain 911 is fast enough for me. But surely, driving a Ferrari gives me a rush which driving a Porsche do not.

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Oct 7, 2004 8:15:54 AM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: iyori

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
iyori said:
I see a lot of Modenas on track in Japan.

Porsches are great and fun to drive but not as exstatic as
the Ferraris. I can't drive like a pro anyways so it doesn't really matter which is faster. Plain 911 is fast enough for me. But surely, driving a Ferrari gives me a rush which driving a Porsche do not.

How many kms you drive per year, let me guess as an average F owner - 4-5k?

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Oct 7, 2004 9:23:28 AM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Must be some test considering the F430 HASN'T been avaliable for testing yet. Regardless, I could care how great a 911TT X50 is, it's still AWD. And that kills it for myself and most experienced drivers. The F430 is the better car, more top speed, better driver feel and involvement, and better brakes. P's- carbon-cermic brakes are inferior to F's.

"better car, more top speed, better driver feel and involvement, and better brakes..." I though you said it hasn't been available for testing yet... just joking

The GT2 is closer to the F430 than the 996TT by price range, closer by HP numbers, closer by drive type, closer by brakes type, closer by production numbers, ect... why do you say its in a different class while the 996TT is not?

that is totally true...gt2 is the real actual competitor of the 430..so bluecam,what do you think?

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Oct 7, 2004 3:57:44 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Have you any data to back up your claim that the F360 "beats" 996TT or are you just presenting speculations?

The lap time of F360 is 2 minutes, 7.65 sec
and that of 996TT is 2 minutes, 10.73 sec by IMSA Champion Steve Millen at Thunderhill Park, a fabulous racetrack near Willows, California

I don't think F360 always beats 996TT and vice verse.

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Oct 7, 2004 5:34:01 PM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: iia

Re: Coming up next week....

Man,

996TT is faster than Modena on the track. Face it. Its cheaper than Modena too. Otherwise it beats F360 in most of the parameters. What other facts you want to know?

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Oct 7, 2004 5:56:12 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD

Now you're just talking rubbish. How old are you?
AWD has nothing to do with driving feel, the TT is more refined because that's how it was setup.

Generally, the only downside of the AWD is a bit of understeer and more weight compared to RWD. That's it. You clearly don't know the basics.

Okay I am 28, and a certifed SCCA driver. I race autocross, drag, and road course. I have raced for nearly 12 years. ANYONE who says AWD "doesn't effect feel" is CLUELESS about driving and car dynamics.....or just a biased P fanboy.

You are not serious on that one, are you?

Porsche established AWD couple of years ago because some people couldn't or didn't want to handle the RWD cars - especially the Turbo!

It might be true that the Turbo lacks "excitement" or however you call it compared to a 360 but - hello? - it still is a German rational-engineered dayin-dayout driveable Porsche.
Show me ANY Italian sportscar (sans the Zonda maybe) that doesn't provide plenty of emotions - even if you don't want it!

The Turbo was never solely intended as a racecar - otherwise they might have skipped the AWD! By the way, the AWD models of the Carrera are considered to be even better on the limit (except for the 964, which is said to have considerable understeer).
The Turbo is not only more polite in 90 % of driving situations but more forgiving due to PSM.

AWD is a turn-down? Drive a Audi quattro first!

Greetings!

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Oct 8, 2004 12:24:49 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Coming up next week....

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Quote:
brunner said:
Quote:
You all seem to be forgetting about DRIVING FEEL. The 996TT offers none, due to its AWD

Now you're just talking rubbish. How old are you?
AWD has nothing to do with driving feel, the TT is more refined because that's how it was setup.

Generally, the only downside of the AWD is a bit of understeer and more weight compared to RWD. That's it. You clearly don't know the basics.

Okay I am 28, and a certifed SCCA driver. I race autocross, drag, and road course. I have raced for nearly 12 years. ANYONE who says AWD "doesn't effect feel" is CLUELESS about driving and car dynamics.....or just a biased P fanboy.

You are not serious on that one, are you?

Porsche established AWD couple of years ago because some people couldn't or didn't want to handle the RWD cars - especially the Turbo!

It might be true that the Turbo lacks "excitement" or however you call it compared to a 360 but - hello? - it still is a German rational-engineered dayin-dayout driveable Porsche.
Show me ANY Italian sportscar (sans the Zonda maybe) that doesn't provide plenty of emotions - even if you don't want it!

The Turbo was never solely intended as a racecar - otherwise they might have skipped the AWD! By the way, the AWD models of the Carrera are considered to be even better on the limit (except for the 964, which is said to have considerable understeer).
The Turbo is not only more polite in 90 % of driving situations but more forgiving due to PSM.

AWD is a turn-down? Drive a Audi quattro first!

Greetings!

I OWNED a 01 S4....hated it, no driver involvement or feel....very numb, vague steering....had it a whole 4 months.

To each there own, if you like AWD, that's fine....
I totally prefer RWD....

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