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Re: Carrera GT seized
For the sake of gabbing i will say this. From my reading of the story which is of course "color" for that newspaper, you have a desk sargent telling a beat reporter a third hand version of this incident. I do not believe people who would have the stones to pass an already pursuing cop car would just stop a couple of seconds later.
Also michael shumacher in a cop car could not catch elmer fudd in a cgt, unless elmer wanted to be caught especially on a curve. Prime example story from LA canyon run about an audi guy who joined a fast outing, he ended up in a ditch. YOU simply can not do what your car is not capable of.
Tom
Also michael shumacher in a cop car could not catch elmer fudd in a cgt, unless elmer wanted to be caught especially on a curve. Prime example story from LA canyon run about an audi guy who joined a fast outing, he ended up in a ditch. YOU simply can not do what your car is not capable of.
Tom
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
racerx said:
Also michael shumacher in a cop car could not catch elmer fudd in a cgt, unless elmer wanted to be caught especially on a curve.
I beg to differ, Tom. Elmer wouldn't have the guts to approach with great speed, say, a completely unknown and very sharp corner in his new $500k, set-up-for-oversteer-from-factory supercar. Michael, on the other hand, takes this particular corner multiple times every day, even when off-duty, and loves to practice trail-braking into said corner while munching on his marlboro-red, sprinkle-covered doughnuts.
Quote:
racerx said:
YOU simply can not do what your car is not capable of.
Amen. A lesson I learned the hard way while trying to follow a faster, lower, wider-tired car through a corner. Thank goodness for progressive understeer and shallow, dry grass.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Some could find a resemblance between myself and elmer, and no cop could have stayed with me and my friends yesterday on our little ride. You give way too much credit to the average cop, I will grant you that LA and CHP in particular are well trained in offensive maneuvers (ramming, spinning) but as regards very high performance driving, no way. Too many sprinkles. Are we not led to believe that cgt owners are seasoned high performance drivers, if not club racers.
Maverick you hit the nail on the head. Lots of cars can go fast (in a straight line) but the real trick is handling. You can not beat physics. Low, wide, perfect weight balance is what its all about unless you spend 40 years and tens of millions to perfect a flawed design (the 911). Crown vics are simply not even worth mentioning.
Tom
Maverick you hit the nail on the head. Lots of cars can go fast (in a straight line) but the real trick is handling. You can not beat physics. Low, wide, perfect weight balance is what its all about unless you spend 40 years and tens of millions to perfect a flawed design (the 911). Crown vics are simply not even worth mentioning.
Tom
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
racerx said:
You give way too much credit to the average cop.
I'm giving credit to the rare, above average cop who meets, on his own turf, the usually average or below average CGT driver. This particular cop, in addition to knowing the roads like the back of his/her hand has taken the benign-handling police cruiser beyond the limit and back many times under different conditions and during multiple chases. This CGT driver has only a few days or weeks of seat time in what can only be described as a beast of a car that is waiting to bite the driver's head off at the slightest hint of a mistake.
Quote:
racerx said:
Are we not led to believe that cgt owners are seasoned high performance drivers, if not club racers.
Uh, no. Most are truly overwhelmed by its Le Mans racer-like responses. The ability to live with and drive this beast well is the acid test for anyone who proclaims themselves to be a hard-core Porschephile. Earlier, I believe, it was the GT2. Now, it is the CGT in the dry with traction control switched off or in the wet with traction control on.
Oct 3, 2004 6:52:57 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
brunner said:Quote:
flawed design
Bullsh*t. There's nothing fundamentally flawed in a rear-engined setup, only advantages and disadvantages.
No kidding brunner
I always get a kick out of that popular misconception. Optimun mid-engine design aside, if the 911 rear-engine's design (commonly regarded as the most succesful platform in car racing history) is flawed then what is front-engine design used in many sportcars then? 
and the '72 911 2.7RS didn't have 40 yrs development behind it nor tens of millions at the time to out handle anything on the streets either.
Oct 3, 2004 7:25:46 PM
- ADias
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
brunner said:Quote:
flawed design
Bullsh*t. There's nothing fundamentally flawed in a rear-engined setup, only advantages and disadvantages.
No kidding brunner
and the '72 911 2.7RS didn't have 40 yrs development behind it nor tens of millions at the time to out handle anything on the streets either.
I agree. Whoever thinks the all-in-the-rear design is flawed does not get it, and should, just as well, drive something else.
Oct 3, 2004 7:43:15 PM
- racerx
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Carrera GT seized
Hey guys lighten up. I like a lot of 911's including the 997. But you argue against common sense and history.
A 50-50 weight balance is ideal. Not 30-70 or 70-30. Thats just comon sense. Now for history.
This is also fact, not conjecture or wishful thinking. Porsche engineers were given a clean slate to produce the best possible combination of luxury and performance. It was also so supposed to be the replacement for the 911 some 25 years ago. Did they design another rear engine platform? NO. They designed the 928 front engine- rear transaxle. Apart from aesthetics they succeeded in producing an amazingly well balanced machine with a 50-50 weight distribution. Rear engine design is not optimal, the fact that porsche has been able to tame it is a credit to porsche nothing else. There is only one ideal when it comes to car design everything else is sub-par from an engineering standpoint. Since people have to sit in a car mid engine is only acceptable for small 2 seat vehicles. As i said i like and have driven many 911's and in 997 form it is something but that is in spite of the layout not because of it.
Tom
My car photographed yesterday!
A 50-50 weight balance is ideal. Not 30-70 or 70-30. Thats just comon sense. Now for history.
This is also fact, not conjecture or wishful thinking. Porsche engineers were given a clean slate to produce the best possible combination of luxury and performance. It was also so supposed to be the replacement for the 911 some 25 years ago. Did they design another rear engine platform? NO. They designed the 928 front engine- rear transaxle. Apart from aesthetics they succeeded in producing an amazingly well balanced machine with a 50-50 weight distribution. Rear engine design is not optimal, the fact that porsche has been able to tame it is a credit to porsche nothing else. There is only one ideal when it comes to car design everything else is sub-par from an engineering standpoint. Since people have to sit in a car mid engine is only acceptable for small 2 seat vehicles. As i said i like and have driven many 911's and in 997 form it is something but that is in spite of the layout not because of it.
Tom
My car photographed yesterday!
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
racerx said:
Low, wide, perfect weight balance is what its all about unless you spend 40 years and tens of millions to perfect a flawed design (the 911).
I think that racerx is basically right on this one: The rear-engined 911 is a triumph of development over design.
But the important thing is: the end result is a triumph.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
racerx said:
Hey Adias, I do and i couldn't be happier.
Tom
Hey... we agree to disagree. For me a 911 is a Porsche. The 928/944 are interesting vehicles but they are not Porsches.
The Boxster is a Porsche too, and I do not consider it a poor man's Porsche at all. It is the present-day 550.
Oct 4, 2004 6:26:54 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
racerx said:
A 50-50 weight balance is ideal. Not 30-70 or 70-30. Thats just comon sense.
Ever see a purpose built racecar with 50-50 distribution? rear-weight bias is ideal for performance due to better grip during acceleration out of a corner, better balance upon braking into the corner, and in the case of the mid-engined's also a low polar moment of inertia which means a superior steering response. But fornt engined cars tend to be front weight biased which is the worst scenario thats why the seek to to be 50-50 and so advertise it when its so, why do you think Ferrari went through all the trouble of inducing a rear weight bias on their front engined F612. Having a 50-50 on a car when is parked is neat and sounds nice in a car add but that doesn't mean it translates into motion nor its best for understeer/oversteer
All serious sportcars and racecars are built with a 40-45/55-60 aprox distribution and no less for a reason. The advantages of front-engine design is its packaging, cabin space, easier to drive for the comon driver, etc. Check out the weight distyribution of the best handling cars or most perfromance oriented cars that come to mind and the vast mayority will have a comon denominator, non 50-50 and read biased instead.
Oct 4, 2004 6:49:21 AM
- ADias
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Carrera GT seized
Absolutely agree with Carlos.
By the way, how come even cars in F1 racing (and its pre-war equivalent) changed from Front engined cars to mid-engined ones as time went by?
Because, like it was said so often already, all men-made creations can be improved to a certain extend. It was up-to-date until someone else found a better solution. The rear engine has several advantages, not only in the 911 but also in my VW Campervan!
50 years ago nobody was interested in FWD, until the Mini came..
On the other hand, GM still sticks to the push-rod V8 in the Vette, though nobody else does. How come?
By the way, how come even cars in F1 racing (and its pre-war equivalent) changed from Front engined cars to mid-engined ones as time went by?
Because, like it was said so often already, all men-made creations can be improved to a certain extend. It was up-to-date until someone else found a better solution. The rear engine has several advantages, not only in the 911 but also in my VW Campervan!
50 years ago nobody was interested in FWD, until the Mini came..
On the other hand, GM still sticks to the push-rod V8 in the Vette, though nobody else does. How come?
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
ADias said:
Hey... we agree to disagree. For me a 911 is a Porsche. The 928/944 are interesting vehicles but they are not Porsches.
The Boxster is a Porsche too, and I do not consider it a poor man's Porsche at all. It is the present-day 550.
When the 928/924/944 came out, they said they were not Porsches because they were water-cooled. Using the same logic, the 996/997 and Boxster would fall into the same category.
I hate to disagree with you ADias, but they were all Porsches including the much malign 914.
Oct 4, 2004 4:07:02 PM
- SoCalHoosier
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Re: Carrera GT seized
I think a lot of you are not reading the story correctly.
No where in the story does it say the Carrera GT driver tried to evade the cop. It merely states the cop was able to finally catch him when he slowed down for a corner. How many owners of half million dollar cars do you know that would like to get picked up for police evasion when all they'd get is a slap on the wrist for racing?
If the driver didn't want to be caught, he wouldn't have been...simple as that.
No where in the story does it say the Carrera GT driver tried to evade the cop. It merely states the cop was able to finally catch him when he slowed down for a corner. How many owners of half million dollar cars do you know that would like to get picked up for police evasion when all they'd get is a slap on the wrist for racing?
If the driver didn't want to be caught, he wouldn't have been...simple as that.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
On the other hand, GM still sticks to the push-rod V8 in the Vette, though nobody else does. How come?
The obvious answer is that it's cheap and easy to manufacture. And, that's probably the major reason.
I was very puzzled when GM redesigned this motor in 1997. It was a complete redesign and yet they retained many of the characteristics of the old Chevy small block. It had been my belief that they had retained these features in the past because it was too expensive to redesign and retool. And yet, when they start with a clean sheet of paper, the design looks much as before. No overhead cams, not more than two valves per cylinder, no variable valve timing, the valves in fact were still inline, they had not even given it canted valves for better airflow!
I was baffled! And yet, as new models of this motor begin to appear in the Corvette, I saw horsepower figures approach, and then surpass, what had been achieved with the dual overhead cam, 32 valve, Lotus designed LT5 engine. Maybe there's more to horsepower production than what we motorheads understand.
There is also the weight factor. If you compare the current LS2 to other motors on a horsepower/displacement basis, the comparison often does not look so good. But, if you compare horsepower per pound, or kilo, of motor weight, which is really a much more valid comparison for a sportscar engine anyway, the comparison looks much better. The GM small block is a very compact, lightweight design. That seemingly backward inline valve, pushrod design results in very small, lightweight heads!
The characteristics of a pushrod engine design are also more fitting for the expectations of the Corvette's intended audience. It has great torque and develops maximum horsepower at a comparatively low RPM. That's great for how Corvette owners like to drive.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
JS said:
Read this in my local paper. nsnews
125 kph, 150 kph, 200 kph...WOW...what a CRIME.
We have kids over here racing at night through the woods (NOT Autobahn!) at speeds way over 200 kph. I don't say this is OK and I actually think they're crazy but this wouldn't be worth even a short notice in any local newspaper.
Such "events" usually get to the newspapers only like this:
"3 young men killed at night when driving home from the disco, they were probably exceeding the legal speed which led to the fatal accident."
I'm really surprised to read how "anal" North American police is about speed. I wish they would be the same about drugs, violence and posession of arms.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
I'm really surprised to read how "anal" North American police is about speed. I wish they would be the same about drugs, violence and posession of arms.
I agree RC, except that possession of arms here is no crime. In fact, the right to possess them is Constitutionally guaranteed and, at present, no permit or registration is necessary in most states. Certainly none required in Texas.
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
ADias said:
The 928/944 are interesting vehicles but they are not Porsches.
That is the statement of an [censored].
It sounds like something from an uninformed stuck-up poseur. 10 years ago the equivalent would have involved water-cooling. 10 years from now you might have to change completely. The 928 was the top of the line in all respects except for a slight edge to the 911 turbo in acceleration not top speed. And even today i would take a stroker or supercharged 928 over any 911 variant. So i guess that the cayenne is not a porsche and if the 998 is front engined it is not a porsche.
Only one model can be a porsche? You should have told that to the porsche brass, because many had the 928 as their company car/daily driver. But of course you know better than Dr. Porsche. I said mid-engine is ideal but impractical for anything with any space. Do you think that porsche would build a sedan with the engine in the rear?
What a little baby you are!
Tom
Re: Carrera GT seized
No baby, racerx, and no poseur at all. The 928/944 are very good cars but they were not Porsches in the Ferry Porsche tradition and let me spell to you what that tradition is:
1 - mid engine design - 550/Boxster
2 - all in the rear design - 356/911
Variations, such as water cooling, power steering, carburation/injection, control electronics and even an auto trans do not change the basic concept.
And have you noticed? The 924/944/928 are no longer in production and the 911 is.
And let me tell you also, if they stop the 911 production the last model will be my last P-car.
Re: Carrera GT seized
I for one will not miss a fool like you when/if that day comes.
I will give you a porsche history lesson later on. But i will say this, the reason the 928 is no longer around is because of world economics. It was simply too expensive for the porsche clientele when the recession years hit in the early 90's, so porsche had to switch to a less costly mix- the less expensive 911 and boxster. I don't know why you tend to mix all those models together, but they have very different backgrounds.
Most true porsche enthusiasts appreciate whatever PORSCHE decide to produce even if they themselves would choose a different model. Trying to say that ferry was not involved in the 928 development is just plain ignorant and not at all based in fact.
You are a 911 snob not a porsche enthusiast. And that is funny because the snobishness usually implies looking down on something when in fact the 911 had to look up to the 928.
Tom
I will give you a porsche history lesson later on. But i will say this, the reason the 928 is no longer around is because of world economics. It was simply too expensive for the porsche clientele when the recession years hit in the early 90's, so porsche had to switch to a less costly mix- the less expensive 911 and boxster. I don't know why you tend to mix all those models together, but they have very different backgrounds.
Most true porsche enthusiasts appreciate whatever PORSCHE decide to produce even if they themselves would choose a different model. Trying to say that ferry was not involved in the 928 development is just plain ignorant and not at all based in fact.
You are a 911 snob not a porsche enthusiast. And that is funny because the snobishness usually implies looking down on something when in fact the 911 had to look up to the 928.
Tom
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
GM Austin said:
...I was very puzzled when GM redesigned this motor in 1997. It was a complete redesign and yet they retained many of the characteristics of the old Chevy small block. It had been my belief that they had retained these features in the past because it was too expensive to redesign and retool. And yet, when they start with a clean sheet of paper, the design looks much as before. No overhead cams, not more than two valves per cylinder, no variable valve timing, the valves in fact were still inline, they had not even given it canted valves for better airflow!
I was baffled! And yet, as new models of this motor begin to appear in the Corvette, I saw horsepower figures approach, and then surpass, what had been achieved with the dual overhead cam, 32 valve, Lotus designed LT5 engine. Maybe there's more to horsepower production than what we motorheads understand.
There is also the weight factor. If you compare the current LS2 to other motors on a horsepower/displacement basis, the comparison often does not look so good. But, if you compare horsepower per pound, or kilo, of motor weight, which is really a much more valid comparison for a sportscar engine anyway, the comparison looks much better. The GM small block is a very compact, lightweight design. That seemingly backward inline valve, pushrod design results in very small, lightweight heads!
The characteristics of a pushrod engine design are also more fitting for the expectations of the Corvette's intended audience. It has great torque and develops maximum horsepower at a comparatively low RPM. That's great for how Corvette owners like to drive.
It is not only how Corvette owners like to drive but about the only way the engine can achieve its figures. A push-rod layout is hardly able to achieve high RPMs and therefore the only way to improve output is by increasing displacement.
You are right about the simple head layout - there are less moving parts and a fairly low center of gravity. Additionally the engine is fairly low in the front of the car, enabling a very low hood.
Of course there are several disadvantages as well but continuing this layout is just as interesting as continuing the rear-engine layout of the 911!
One more note about the 911 concept:
it is not as user-friendly as a FWD/front-engined car!
Please quit the flaming wether the front-engined Porsches are true to the marque or not! Hey, Ferdinand Porsche even developed four-wheel driven electro-vehicles in the past! They chose the rear-engine concept on the 356 and 911 because it was the best compromise between economical and dynamic criterias.
I suppose they intended to make the 928 to its successor because according to Porsche it was a better compromise two decades ago - otherwise they wouldn't have tried to end the 911 era!
Anyways, it is nice to see that so many people can live with the "downsides" - some call it "character... - of the 911 and appreciate its advantages!
Greetings!
Oct 4, 2004 7:41:51 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Reply to:
GM Austin
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
GM Austin said:
Quote:
On the other hand, GM still sticks to the push-rod V8 in the Vette, though nobody else does. How come?
The obvious answer is that it's cheap and easy to manufacture. And, that's probably the major reason.
I was very puzzled when GM redesigned this motor in 1997. It was a complete redesign and yet they retained many of the characteristics of the old Chevy small block. It had been my belief that they had retained these features in the past because it was too expensive to redesign and retool. And yet, when they start with a clean sheet of paper, the design looks much as before. No overhead cams, not more than two valves per cylinder, no variable valve timing, the valves in fact were still inline, they had not even given it canted valves for better airflow!
I was baffled! And yet, as new models of this motor begin to appear in the Corvette, I saw horsepower figures approach, and then surpass, what had been achieved with the dual overhead cam, 32 valve, Lotus designed LT5 engine. Maybe there's more to horsepower production than what we motorheads understand.
There is also the weight factor. If you compare the current LS2 to other motors on a horsepower/displacement basis, the comparison often does not look so good. But, if you compare horsepower per pound, or kilo, of motor weight, which is really a much more valid comparison for a sportscar engine anyway, the comparison looks much better. The GM small block is a very compact, lightweight design. That seemingly backward inline valve, pushrod design results in very small, lightweight heads!
The characteristics of a pushrod engine design are also more fitting for the expectations of the Corvette's intended audience. It has great torque and develops maximum horsepower at a comparatively low RPM. That's great for how Corvette owners like to drive.
Interesting, good points
Oct 4, 2004 7:43:08 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Reply to:
GM Austin
Re: Carrera GT seized
Quote:
GM Austin said:
Quote:
I'm really surprised to read how "anal" North American police is about speed. I wish they would be the same about drugs, violence and posession of arms.
I agree RC, except that possession of arms here is no crime. In fact, the right to possess them is Constitutionally guaranteed and, at present, no permit or registration is necessary in most states. Certainly none required in Texas.
"Only in Texas"...
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