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Nov 22, 2002 3:10:11 PM
- EricAlain
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Cayenne Pictures - another collection
Great pics, RC. My opinion is that as this kind of info gets out - and the amazing on-road AND off-road capabilities become quantified and better known - even the Porsche Purists will begin to acknowledge and approve of the Cayenne.
Form Follows Function.
I hope so, for Porsche's sake.
Form Follows Function.
I hope so, for Porsche's sake.
Nov 22, 2002 5:01:06 PM
- Chicagoland
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Ron (Houston)
Re: impressive
One of my favorite design of the Cayenne is the height adjustable suspension system. I think all the SUV soon or later should have these design..
One of the least favorite design of the Cayenne is the look. They would have better off "Copy" the VW look and stick a Porsche badge on it. I like the VW look much better.
I just don't know whether or not the designer in Porsche actually knew that the "Porsche 911 Turbo look alike face" is only suitable in a two door coupe format. Even in a foor door car will look really odd. Imagine a Diablo face in a SUV
One of the least favorite design of the Cayenne is the look. They would have better off "Copy" the VW look and stick a Porsche badge on it. I like the VW look much better.
I just don't know whether or not the designer in Porsche actually knew that the "Porsche 911 Turbo look alike face" is only suitable in a two door coupe format. Even in a foor door car will look really odd. Imagine a Diablo face in a SUV
My wife says...
...the Cayenne looks like a pumped up 996 Turbo with heightened suspension. She also thinks this is a pretty ridiculous design for a Porsche SUV. I don't fully agree with her (however it is difficult to argue on this) but I think that Porsche looked too much at the conservative US market (sorry guys, you know what I mean...), one reason why they might have chosen Stephen Murkett as the main Cayenne designer.
I think Porsche did two concept mistakes which followed one after each other: first they thought they can build a SUV sportscar and then they tried to adapt a sportscar look to a SUV. The first part didn't work and it probably was too late to change the second part. Funny: the Cayenne design was no surprise for me as I always thought that the Cayenne will look as a Porsche sportscar. I expected a more stylish design though.
Yes, the Cayenne will sell because there is high demand (SUVs generally) and because it is a Porsche. But as soon as the Touareg makes it's way, as soon as the W12 will be offered in the Touareg and as soon as the new BMW X5 and new Mercedes ML show up, Porsche is busted. I really hope that they see that danger and they already have a Cayenne facelift for the future.
I decided to wait for the new Mercedes ML because of the looks. Yes, I finally think that the Cayenne doesn't comply with my taste. If I want to drive a Porsche, I drive my Turbo. The Cayenne reminds me too much of my Turbo and I can't get used to the idea of a SUV sportscar, it even makes me angry. But again: I'm sure that from a technical standpoint of view, the Cayenne is a very very nice product. I only hope that quality will be much better than on the first Boxsters/996s.
I think Porsche did two concept mistakes which followed one after each other: first they thought they can build a SUV sportscar and then they tried to adapt a sportscar look to a SUV. The first part didn't work and it probably was too late to change the second part. Funny: the Cayenne design was no surprise for me as I always thought that the Cayenne will look as a Porsche sportscar. I expected a more stylish design though.
Yes, the Cayenne will sell because there is high demand (SUVs generally) and because it is a Porsche. But as soon as the Touareg makes it's way, as soon as the W12 will be offered in the Touareg and as soon as the new BMW X5 and new Mercedes ML show up, Porsche is busted. I really hope that they see that danger and they already have a Cayenne facelift for the future.
I decided to wait for the new Mercedes ML because of the looks. Yes, I finally think that the Cayenne doesn't comply with my taste. If I want to drive a Porsche, I drive my Turbo. The Cayenne reminds me too much of my Turbo and I can't get used to the idea of a SUV sportscar, it even makes me angry. But again: I'm sure that from a technical standpoint of view, the Cayenne is a very very nice product. I only hope that quality will be much better than on the first Boxsters/996s.
Nov 24, 2002 5:08:49 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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Reply to:
RC
RC...
In reply to:
I think Porsche did two concept mistakes which followed one after each other: first they thought they can build a SUV sportscar and then they tried to adapt a sportscar look to a SUV
Do you think they'll continue on building or perfecting this SUV or it'll be like 928 and 944 models that got canned after while?
Nov 24, 2002 11:39:17 AM
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RC
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: RC...
Time will tell, Ron. In Germany, SUV demand is very high.
I know there is a discussion about SUV safety in the US but with modern technology like ESP but also air suspension systems, this is actually like beating a dead horse. When I see what I can do with my ML55, I can't understand concerns regarding SUV safety. People have to be aware that they're not driving a lightweight sportscar but a heavyweight truck. If people are willing to adapt to this fact, I don't see any problem with SUVs. I can drive my ML55 very sporty but it is no sportscar. And yes, I have to adapt my driving style to it if I don't want to kiss the next tree.
The Cayenne is a very interesting product, especially because it uses pretty unusual technology like the air suspension and because the turbo version hits new SUV performance grounds.
But is it enough to sell well over the next few years? I don't know. Everything depends on the Cayenne's quality and on the new upcoming Mercedes/BMW SUVs. I think that the Cayenne is a little bit too small for the US market where SUVs like the Ford Expedition or Excursion are common cars on the streets. We have only one child and our ML is already too small for our little family. Yes, I have to confess that we travel with a lot of luggage. But so do Americans too, right?
The US is the most important Cayenne market. If the Cayenne sells well in the US, it will be a success. If not, Porsche is in trouble. The upcoming Mercedes GST is already playing in a different class with it's huge size. And if Mercedes adapts the right engine to it, it will be a bestseller. Due to the US production, Mercedes and BMW can charge much more attractive prices for their models. I'm pretty sure that the new ML55 will be far below the Cayenne Turbo price tag.
And here comes a problem for Porsche: they already positioned the Cayenne Turbo in a pretty high price segment. They can't go back and lower the price.
So there is a certain factor of the unknown in the Cayenne's future. It's conservative design could be another problem in the future. I don't know if customers would appreciate an overall facelift after two to three years of production.
Put the Cayenne next to a BMW X5 and a Mercedes ML. The Cayenne already looks old, the most modern SUV appears to be the X5 in my opinion.
Another problem might also be Volkswagen with the Touareg. VW needs to sell the Touareg in the US too. If they don't succeed with the V6, I'm pretty sure that we'll even see a V8 from VW on the Touareg, no doubt about it.
Another thing which stumbles me: VW claimed to have around 2000 pre-orders for the Touareg. Porsche claimed to have something around 100000 as far as I understood. This doesn't sound right if you ask me. And the fact that my dealer tells me how many orders he has but on the other hand offers me a Cayenne Turbo for spring delivery makes me even more cautious towards a Cayenne success.
To make it short: if the Cayenne sells well in the US, it will be a success. But unfortunately BMW and Mercedes won't permit Porsche to take over their most important market. And US manufacturers don't sleep either, I'm pretty sure that we'll see some highly interesting products from Ford and GM too.
Porsche entered a game they cannot win and cannot control. They hope however that they're able to play in the first league and win some of the games. I'm not sure this is enough to earn sufficient money.
Another problem could be the economic situation worldwide. SUVs are luxury cars, no doubt about it. An ordinary family cannot afford spending 40000-60000 bucks on a SUV.
Fuel prices are another concern for the future. And not to forget the USD. If the USD drops substantially vs. the EUR, Porsche is in serious trouble. BMW and Mercedes don't have this problem due to their US production facilities.
Just my personal opinion, nobody has to agree with me.
I know there is a discussion about SUV safety in the US but with modern technology like ESP but also air suspension systems, this is actually like beating a dead horse. When I see what I can do with my ML55, I can't understand concerns regarding SUV safety. People have to be aware that they're not driving a lightweight sportscar but a heavyweight truck. If people are willing to adapt to this fact, I don't see any problem with SUVs. I can drive my ML55 very sporty but it is no sportscar. And yes, I have to adapt my driving style to it if I don't want to kiss the next tree.
The Cayenne is a very interesting product, especially because it uses pretty unusual technology like the air suspension and because the turbo version hits new SUV performance grounds.
But is it enough to sell well over the next few years? I don't know. Everything depends on the Cayenne's quality and on the new upcoming Mercedes/BMW SUVs. I think that the Cayenne is a little bit too small for the US market where SUVs like the Ford Expedition or Excursion are common cars on the streets. We have only one child and our ML is already too small for our little family. Yes, I have to confess that we travel with a lot of luggage. But so do Americans too, right?
The US is the most important Cayenne market. If the Cayenne sells well in the US, it will be a success. If not, Porsche is in trouble. The upcoming Mercedes GST is already playing in a different class with it's huge size. And if Mercedes adapts the right engine to it, it will be a bestseller. Due to the US production, Mercedes and BMW can charge much more attractive prices for their models. I'm pretty sure that the new ML55 will be far below the Cayenne Turbo price tag.
And here comes a problem for Porsche: they already positioned the Cayenne Turbo in a pretty high price segment. They can't go back and lower the price.
So there is a certain factor of the unknown in the Cayenne's future. It's conservative design could be another problem in the future. I don't know if customers would appreciate an overall facelift after two to three years of production.
Put the Cayenne next to a BMW X5 and a Mercedes ML. The Cayenne already looks old, the most modern SUV appears to be the X5 in my opinion.
Another problem might also be Volkswagen with the Touareg. VW needs to sell the Touareg in the US too. If they don't succeed with the V6, I'm pretty sure that we'll even see a V8 from VW on the Touareg, no doubt about it.
Another thing which stumbles me: VW claimed to have around 2000 pre-orders for the Touareg. Porsche claimed to have something around 100000 as far as I understood. This doesn't sound right if you ask me. And the fact that my dealer tells me how many orders he has but on the other hand offers me a Cayenne Turbo for spring delivery makes me even more cautious towards a Cayenne success.
To make it short: if the Cayenne sells well in the US, it will be a success. But unfortunately BMW and Mercedes won't permit Porsche to take over their most important market. And US manufacturers don't sleep either, I'm pretty sure that we'll see some highly interesting products from Ford and GM too.
Porsche entered a game they cannot win and cannot control. They hope however that they're able to play in the first league and win some of the games. I'm not sure this is enough to earn sufficient money.
Another problem could be the economic situation worldwide. SUVs are luxury cars, no doubt about it. An ordinary family cannot afford spending 40000-60000 bucks on a SUV.
Fuel prices are another concern for the future. And not to forget the USD. If the USD drops substantially vs. the EUR, Porsche is in serious trouble. BMW and Mercedes don't have this problem due to their US production facilities.
Just my personal opinion, nobody has to agree with me.
Nov 24, 2002 12:14:45 PM
- John H in MD
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Reply to:
RC
Nov 24, 2002 12:30:43 PM
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Ron (Houston)
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Reply to:
RC
Re: RC...
Very interesting point of view. In fact that you mentioned you guys are running out of room in your ML is what my wife and I have been discussing recently. She actually told me yesterday that our ML is getting too small and she wants an Expedition
It's funny that she used to be into cars before we had the baby and now into Expeditions and Suburbans because all of her friends with kids have Expeditions and Suburbans due to their huge luggage and back seat area.
I have been trying to show her pictures of Cayenne but she doesn't seem to care about it at all. Good news, she actually told me "if you get me an Expedition or a Suburban you can get yourself another Porsche if you want"
We test drove the new Volvo XC90 and neither one of us liked it. It seems smaller than our ML. She loves the X5 but unfortunately the luggage area is very small, she also wants to check out the new Lexus GX. Her concern is just more room, horsepower speaking she cares less.
Neither my wife nor I have seen the Cayenne in person, but my wife was never crazy about it in the picture as she bragged about the X5 or the Lexus LX.
I'm sure Cayenne will sell very well in California where Image plays a big role but as far as practicality can't compete with big ass Expedition and Suburban. Actually, I have a feeling the soccer Moms all like the big and roomy SUVs and I don't think Cayenne should be labeled "Soccer Mom" cars any more.
As far as I'm concerned Porsche to me is still the legendary 911 and the sooner Expedition happens the faster I reach my next 911
.
It's funny that she used to be into cars before we had the baby and now into Expeditions and Suburbans because all of her friends with kids have Expeditions and Suburbans due to their huge luggage and back seat area.
I have been trying to show her pictures of Cayenne but she doesn't seem to care about it at all. Good news, she actually told me "if you get me an Expedition or a Suburban you can get yourself another Porsche if you want"
We test drove the new Volvo XC90 and neither one of us liked it. It seems smaller than our ML. She loves the X5 but unfortunately the luggage area is very small, she also wants to check out the new Lexus GX. Her concern is just more room, horsepower speaking she cares less.
Neither my wife nor I have seen the Cayenne in person, but my wife was never crazy about it in the picture as she bragged about the X5 or the Lexus LX.
I'm sure Cayenne will sell very well in California where Image plays a big role but as far as practicality can't compete with big ass Expedition and Suburban. Actually, I have a feeling the soccer Moms all like the big and roomy SUVs and I don't think Cayenne should be labeled "Soccer Mom" cars any more.
As far as I'm concerned Porsche to me is still the legendary 911 and the sooner Expedition happens the faster I reach my next 911
.Re: My wife says...
I am also very interested in the new M-class, I highly doubt the new BMW X5 will look any better than the new 5 series BMW may even make the biggest mistake by putting a SMG transmission and the V10 engine to the X5.. It will be a failure for sure if they do so!
The ideal new M-class should base on the E-class chassis, the ML55 should have less than 476hp but more torque and lower rev. Improve build quality from last one and adjustable suspension similar to Cayenne should be in place. If this is the case, I would get the ML anyday over the Cayenne
BMW may even make the biggest mistake by putting a SMG transmission and the V10 engine to the X5.. It will be a failure for sure if they do so! The ideal new M-class should base on the E-class chassis, the ML55 should have less than 476hp but more torque and lower rev. Improve build quality from last one and adjustable suspension similar to Cayenne should be in place. If this is the case, I would get the ML anyday over the Cayenne
Re: I agree
The porsche price the Turbo version too high in the market price. It will be very difficult to reverse the price when the ML55 and the new X5 version have similar or performance and lower price and most option should be standard.
But then my second thought was that there will still be time before the next ML and BMW to come out. At least 3 years to sell the Cayenne without any competitor . But then Porsche need a major facelift and change after 3 years...
Porsche is pretty smart, What I think Porsche trying to do is to introduce the two top model first, Cayenne Turbo and Cayenne S as an image builder. People think of Porsche as the fastest SUV in the world that cost over 100K. It will become a dream for everyone to own the most powerful SUV in the world, but not many people can afford 100K for a SUV. Then they will release a 6 cylinder model with even cheaper price. That will be the best way to take market shares.
SUV market is around $2-3 billion, if posche take only 10% of it... It can still consider as sucess.
But then my second thought was that there will still be time before the next ML and BMW to come out. At least 3 years to sell the Cayenne without any competitor . But then Porsche need a major facelift and change after 3 years...
Porsche is pretty smart, What I think Porsche trying to do is to introduce the two top model first, Cayenne Turbo and Cayenne S as an image builder. People think of Porsche as the fastest SUV in the world that cost over 100K. It will become a dream for everyone to own the most powerful SUV in the world, but not many people can afford 100K for a SUV. Then they will release a 6 cylinder model with even cheaper price. That will be the best way to take market shares.
SUV market is around $2-3 billion, if posche take only 10% of it... It can still consider as sucess.
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