Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - New BMW M5 500hp gimmick - Page1

Sep 29, 2004 3:12:14 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002

New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

From what I have heard, the new M5 has only 400hp until one presses a button on the dash which unleashed the next 100hp. Why? This seems really stupid. If a driver doesn't want all 500hp, then just don't press the throttle pedal all the way. The car has traction control - it's not a safety issue. When the driver really needs all 500hp to avoid a problem or merge quickly onto the highway, then he has to take his attention off the road to press a stupid button - that makes no sense. My only conclusion is that it's either a stupid gimmick or BMW hopes that its engines won't explode as often as the E46 M3 motors if its drivers leave the car in the 80% power mode

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Sep 29, 2004 3:26:11 PM

dhayek: Rennteam Master; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 3839, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

the corvette had a similar system that was key operated via a switch in the dashboard ,it shifted from 280 to 400 bhp

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Sep 29, 2004 4:14:40 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: dhayek

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
dhayek said:
the corvette had a similar system that was key operated via a switch in the dashboard ,it shifted from 280 to 400 bhp

That Corvette sustem was so you could reduce power for a Valet attendant or a son/daughter and could be left in the full-power setting forever. It was up to the owner to set the key to the low-power setting, otherwise it was always in full-power mode.

I am concerned that with the new M5 that the default will be 400hp everytime the car is started (like the DSC traction control buttom), so everytime you want full-power, you will need to press the button - much worse than Corvette system if true

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Sep 29, 2004 4:26:18 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
From what I have heard, the new M5 has only 400hp until one presses a button on the dash which unleashed the next 100hp. Why? This seems really stupid. If a driver doesn't want all 500hp, then just don't press the throttle pedal all the way. The car has traction control - it's not a safety issue. When the driver really needs all 500hp to avoid a problem or merge quickly onto the highway, then he has to take his attention off the road to press a stupid button - that makes no sense. My only conclusion is that it's either a stupid gimmick or BMW hopes that its engines won't explode as often as the E46 M3 motors if its drivers leave the car in the 80% power mode

Your conclusions sound spot-on. M5 chatter is that recent delays in intro date are b/c M5 engines are blowing up. On the bright side, at least BMW's engine blow-ups and weak brakes are consistent phenomena in the M line-up

Such a shame because they're such beautiful cars

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Sep 29, 2004 6:33:03 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: WBH

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

My first though that came to mind as I read through your post is that the logical reason is becuase BMW is afraid of reliability issues in full 500HP mode and the engine may be a little too tight when squeezing 500HP out of it. Fairly stupid gimmick, thats what the throttle is for. And safety is not the reason, limiting the power output to "only 400HP" is not equal to safe mode

that can be acomplished by button with a more intrusive DSC settings instead.

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Sep 29, 2004 8:37:41 PM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Has BMW ever considered building engines that don't blow up instead?

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Sep 29, 2004 10:11:38 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Yargk

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Yargk said:
Has BMW ever considered building engines that don't blow up instead?

Yeah, I mean prior to the E46 M3, they had some of the most reliable and long-lasting motors in the industry (including M-series). It's a shame the cars are getting heavier, uglier and less reliable all at the same time

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Sep 29, 2004 10:15:21 PM

igzaklee: Senior; Loc: BH , United States; Posts: 797, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

what's with all the damn buttons these days????

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Sep 29, 2004 10:49:49 PM

Raz (NC): Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 175, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

before we light the torches and buy a bunch of pitchforks, are we sure that the button isn't to increase gas mileage for the EPA tests?

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Sep 29, 2004 11:29:40 PM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: Raz (NC)

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

I don't believe what you guys are saying

Do you really think BMW would build an unreliable car with 500Hp???? I don't think so, BMW knows this beast will cruise the German highways at full power in the hands of future owners who are used to do that in regular basis.
and if you want 500Hp, just press the button, as you press the on/off radio button, i can't see what's wrong with that. BMW is placing new rules in the world of Sport sedan putting the bar very high for the competiton to reach and this is their great achievement.
V10 rules

J.Seven

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Sep 30, 2004 1:46:39 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
J.Seven said:
I don't believe what you guys are saying
Do you really think BMW would build an unreliable car with 500Hp???? I don't think so, BMW knows this beast will cruise the German highways at full power in the hands of future owners who are used to do that in regular basis.

Well, they built a grenading 343hp motor for the M3 that is regularly driven at 250kph on the autobahn...

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Sep 30, 2004 2:09:02 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
J.Seven said:
I don't believe what you guys are saying
Do you really think BMW would build an unreliable car with 500Hp???? I don't think so, BMW knows this beast will cruise the German highways at full power in the hands of future owners who are used to do that in regular basis.

Well, they built a grenading 343hp motor for the M3 that is regularly driven at 250kph on the autobahn...

And you'd think they would have borrowed brakes from P or F, given brakes are clearly not a BMW core competence either....but aside from the engine and brakes, it's probably a brilliant sports sedan.....

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Sep 30, 2004 2:37:08 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
From what I have heard, the new M5 has only 400hp until one presses a button on the dash which unleashed the next 100hp. Why? This seems really stupid. If a driver doesn't want all 500hp, then just don't press the throttle pedal all the way. The car has traction control - it's not a safety issue. When the driver really needs all 500hp to avoid a problem or merge quickly onto the highway, then he has to take his attention off the road to press a stupid button - that makes no sense. My only conclusion is that it's either a stupid gimmick or BMW hopes that its engines won't explode as often as the E46 M3 motors if its drivers leave the car in the 80% power mode

Grant, I guess it's the same kind of issue as some Porsche owners(997) complain about, the Sports Chrono Package. If the car can perform like hell by pressing "sport" button why not mapped the ECU this way to begin with.
It doesn't change the power but the response changes a great deal.

I guess the "Button" is becoming a trend among sports cars manufacturers.

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Sep 30, 2004 6:20:25 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Yargk said:
Has BMW ever considered building engines that don't blow up instead?

Yeah, I mean prior to the E46 M3, they had some of the most reliable and long-lasting motors in the industry (including M-series). It's a shame the cars are getting heavier, uglier and less reliable all at the same time

Check my sig, I have one

170k miles and running strong.

Let me rephrase: So when is the M division going to get tired of the granading motor gag?

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Sep 30, 2004 9:09:46 AM

TEE: Veteran; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 929, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 5, 2003; Reply to: Yargk

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Let me guess - this put also improves consumption. Fair you could do the similar with lighter right foot but not as good. And the M5 is a gas guzzler...

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Sep 30, 2004 9:21:53 AM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
J.Seven said:
I don't believe what you guys are saying
Do you really think BMW would build an unreliable car with 500Hp???? I don't think so, BMW knows this beast will cruise the German highways at full power in the hands of future owners who are used to do that in regular basis.

Well, they built a grenading 343hp motor for the M3 that is regularly driven at 250kph on the autobahn...

At least BMW admited the engine problems and sent letters to their owners informing them about it, something Porsche didn't do. Ever since 98 that the M96 engines have been blowing too, just look at any Porsche forum and almost regulary there are stories of blown engines from the 1997 Boxster to the 2004 996. And for those Porsche owners who had their warranty period expired with a blown engine on his hands the headhackes are not soft at all. Instead of critisize the great achievement BMW made with an almost race engine into a mass production car at fair price, we should worry about Porsche Policy of dropping palid engines on their mitic sports car, the Carrera 911.

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Sep 30, 2004 1:13:16 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
J.Seven said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
J.Seven said:
I don't believe what you guys are saying
Do you really think BMW would build an unreliable car with 500Hp???? I don't think so, BMW knows this beast will cruise the German highways at full power in the hands of future owners who are used to do that in regular basis.

Well, they built a grenading 343hp motor for the M3 that is regularly driven at 250kph on the autobahn...

At least BMW admited the engine problems and sent letters to their owners informing them about it, something Porsche didn't do. Ever since 98 that the M96 engines have been blowing too, just look at any Porsche forum and almost regulary there are stories of blown engines from the 1997 Boxster to the 2004 996. And for those Porsche owners who had their warranty period expired with a blown engine on his hands the headhackes are not soft at all. Instead of critisize the great achievement BMW made with an almost race engine into a mass production car at fair price, we should worry about Porsche Policy of dropping palid engines on their mitic sports car, the Carrera 911.

I'm not aware of almost any blown Porsche engines. Are you referring to the rear main seal leaks. It is not a safety issue. This is a design flaw and very inconvenient, but this is not comparable to the M3's problems.

The M3 has catastrophic failures where its connecting rods push right through the engine block which can cause the engine to sieze and lock the rear wheels (not happy at high speeds). This even happened to an F1 driver (Jensen Button, I think) who went spinning off the road into a tree.

Also, BMW insisted for the first year that all of these blown motors were the fault of its drivers overrevving the motor (even with SMG where that is impossible while driving). It took enough negative press where they finally had to admit their mistakes and not charge its customers $17k for the fix (as they did for a year).

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Sep 30, 2004 1:41:25 PM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

[quoteI'm not aware of almost any blown Porsche engines).

You must be joking right?

Or maybe you only browse this forum. But even here, we had members who had their engines blown. In PPBB there was a guy with 3 engines replaced in the same car it must be a world record

but he still loves his car

Grant, I'm not here to defend BMW, I just think they made a great job on the M5 regarding power and high tech features, and this is something every car lover should be happy for.
Can you imagine a standart Carrera with 400Hp, the S with 430Hp, GT3 with 480Hp and Turbo 520Hp, this should be the right numbers to put us all a smile in the face, and taking out the risk of being trashed by a Benz E55 with 4 people inside and the dog barking at your face in the rear trunk while letting you standind on the highway thinking you had subit loss of power.

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Sep 30, 2004 2:33:36 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
J.Seven said:
[quoteI'm not aware of almost any blown Porsche engines).

You must be joking right?

Or maybe you only browse this forum.

J Seven - I think if you look at the number of posts that I have you'll see that I spend far too much time here. Honestly, I know of almost no engine failures other than RMS leaks - this is often solved by replacing the engine, but it does not mean anything other than some oil leaking - not a dangerous failure like the M3. Can you direct me to a post where someone has reported an internal engine failure?

As far as the M5 goes - yes I love power (don't care much about high-tech features though), but I also like low weight, steering with feedback, attractive designs, and reliability...

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Oct 1, 2004 9:12:43 AM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:

J Seven - I think if you look at the number of posts that I have you'll see that I spend far too much time here. Honestly, I know of almost no engine failures other than RMS leaks - this is often solved by replacing the engine, but it does not mean anything other than some oil leaking - not a dangerous failure like the M3. Can you direct me to a post where someone has reported an internal engine failure?

As far as the M5 goes - yes I love power (don't care much about high-tech features though), but I also like low weight, steering with feedback, attractive designs, and reliability...

Grant just made a quick search on Rennlist and found this
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=26092&highlight=blown+engine

But there are much more stories about it, just make a search on any Porsche forum. I remember on begining 2003 the Evo magazine bought a GT2 for a long test thrue out the years. They have several cars that usualy test during months and months and from time to time they make a report about the long term test drive. Actually this is the best way to test any car.

Well, with 2000Miles on the clock the GT2 started to make mechanical noises form the engine and Porsche said they had to put a new engine on it. Maybe a search on their website can show this test, I have the magazine with the blown engine report.

Anyway I had a friend that had a 2000 Boxster S and the engine blown one year later, Porsche payed the engine, he payed the labour. Then he had a terrible accident (I think you must have seen the pics of this accident because I posted here the trashed blach Boxster that blown the tire at 250Kph) So he bought a M3 from 2002. Can you believe my friend is on it's third engine on the BMW

Firt one blown in 2002, the second one blown in September 2003, and finaly the third one blown this month. BMW is paying for all of this, but he's over with BMW.

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Oct 1, 2004 3:52:47 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Ouch! Well neither of these stories bodes well for modern German engines. I truly hope the rumors about the new M5 are false and I'm fairly confident that the serious problems (other than RMS) are uncommon on the 996/Boxsters.

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Oct 1, 2004 4:21:38 PM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: dhayek

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Bangle watched too many James Bond movies...Its too bad BMW didnt have a button in his office cair to catapult him as far as possible from BMW, preferable to the closest Merc office

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Oct 1, 2004 5:40:18 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Grant, I guess it's the same kind of issue as some Porsche owners(997) complain about, the Sports Chrono Package. If the car can perform like hell by pressing "sport" button why not mapped the ECU this way to begin with.
It doesn't change the power but the response changes a great deal.

I guess the "Button" is becoming a trend among sports cars manufacturers.

Ron, there is an easy explenation for the 997 chrono sport setup: not all customers want to have it, as unbelievable this might sound. I recently met somebody at my dealer who did a 997 Carrera S testdrive and who didn't like the chrono sport package at all (funny, he liked the stop watch...

). He found the throttle response with active sport button to be too aggressive and too spontaneous.

Not to forget about the changed PSM mapping which would probably put a lot of 997 owners in huge trouble. It is pretty spectacular to see a car with activated PSM system drifting around curves.

But I agree that the chrono sport package (without the stop watch) should have been a standard option on the 997.

The engine power switching on the new M5 could have something to do with emissions, fuel consumption and of course engine durability. I always liked BMW but when I look at their past problems regarding engines and especially electronics, I'm really afraid that the new M5 will be a reliability nightmare, especially in the first year of production. I hope to be wrong though but as much as I'm fascinated by this car, I wouldn't buy it.

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Oct 1, 2004 5:50:37 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
RC said:

Ron, there is an easy explenation for the 997 chrono sport setup: not all customers want to have it, as unbelievable this might sound. I recently met somebody at my dealer who did a 997 Carrera S testdrive and who didn't like the chrono sport package at all (funny, he liked the stop watch... ). He found the throttle response with active sport button to be too aggressive and too spontaneous. Not to forget about the changed PSM mapping which would probably put a lot of 997 owners in huge trouble. It is pretty spectacular to see a car with activated PSM system drifting around curves.
But I agree that the chrono sport package (without the stop watch) should have been a standard option on the 997.

I guess you're right in a sense that not too many people like the sharp responsiveness

; an example of that is that my neighbor wanted to test drive my '00 996 which is under powered by 55 hp compare to the 997S and he was scared [censored]

He was asking me "How can you control a car that is so fast and quick?" I smiled and let him brag about his Lexus LS430 that is the best car in the world

.

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Oct 1, 2004 6:11:57 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:I smiled and let him brag about his Lexus LS430 that is the best car in the world .

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Oct 2, 2004 5:48:13 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Grant said:
Ouch! Well neither of these stories bodes well for modern German engines. I truly hope the rumors about the new M5 are false and I'm fairly confident that the serious problems (other than RMS) are uncommon on the 996/Boxsters.

We should prob be viewing any modern high-performance car like most view PCs and software....some computers blow-up early in their lifespan, like some car engines/electronics systems; software programs tend to be buggy in early versions, like many first yr production cars; and who cares if a PC still works after 3-4 yrs?...it's disposable and we need latest, greatest PC to run latest, greatest software. Similarly, we should be happy if our new automotive toy functions robustly during 2-3 yrs of use, while it's under warranty; then one sells it to the "shrewd" guy who wants to bet on reliability of these computer-intensive cars in their later years, while we absorb our "foolish" depreciation hit and move onto new toys.

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Oct 2, 2004 1:19:39 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Big brother BMW -- the M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
J.Seven said:
and if you want 500Hp, just press the button, as you press the on/off radio button, i can't see what's wrong with that.

You are all missing the boat here. The button will be called the "sport" button and there will be a passage in the owner's manual about how this is only intended for sport driving and normally should not be activated.

Then the electronics will keep track of the activation time. Owners activating this button a little too often might have a lot of explaining to do when it comes to warranty repair! We have already seen this with the M3 SMG launch control.

Stephen

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Oct 3, 2004 11:49:31 AM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Big brother BMW -- the M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
Then the electronics will keep track of the activation time. Owners activating this button a little too often might have a lot of explaining to do when it comes to warranty repair! We have already seen this with the M3 SMG launch control.

Stephen

Are you sue about that?
This is ridiculous, if the sport button is there, is to be used no matter how many times you preset.

Imagine two friends with a M5 going to BMW asking for warranty coverage
"hey your friend pressed the buton 97 times, while you pressed 21, ok we can cover all the damage on your car, but not in your friends car because he pressed the button to many times"

J.Seven

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Oct 3, 2004 6:58:05 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Quote:
RC said:
Ron, there is an easy explenation for the 997 chrono sport setup: not all customers want to have it, as unbelievable this might sound. I recently met somebody at my dealer who did a 997 Carrera S testdrive and who didn't like the chrono sport package at all (funny, he liked the stop watch... ). He found the throttle response with active sport button to be too aggressive and too spontaneous.

From a passenger point of view, I readily sympathize with passengers who don't like aggressive throttle response. About a montho ago, I was a rear passenger in an E46 M3 on an hour-long testdrive. When the "sport mode" was engaged, the throttle response was so aggressive, that my head and neck would snap backwards each time the driver touched the accelerator. As a result, I was beginning to get a headache. However, when "sport mode" was disengaged, the transition from no throttle to some throttle was much gentler for me as a passenger. As a driver, I would love sport mode. As a passenger, I would hate it unless I remembered to rest my head firmly against the headrest at all times.

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Oct 4, 2004 5:17:23 AM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

in defense of sport mode, you might not want as much RWTQ in all situations, namely winter, if it doesnt have a winter mode. or really fall if there are wet leaves around, just an idea though, I really doubt its to save the life of the car, I dont think they plan breaking down into the vehicle.

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Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Big brother BMW -- the M5 500hp gimmick

Re: Big brother BMW -- the M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

Re: New BMW M5 500hp gimmick

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