Crown

MKSGR:

RC:

schmoell:

Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes 

It would be so easy for the government to create incentives to switch to EVs:

1. No vehicle taxes

2. Special electricity tariffs for EVs without any taxes

3. Free parking in cities

4. Electricity cost for EVs tax deductible for first three years of EV car ownership

5. 200 kph speed limit for EVs, 140 kph for "normal" cars or no speed limit at all for EVs (but I guess the car industry would oppose that)

Just a few examples...

At first they need to install tens of thousands of chargers in the cities. Which is impossible due to lack of backbone infrastructure and many other things.

That too but if there is an incentive for companies (start-ups even?) to do that, they will. I am more worried about the capacity of our electrical grid. Told you that story when they built a new condo complex with an underground garage in a smaller city here in Bavaria and they wanted to build a couple of charging stations in that garage but the electrical grid wasn't good for it, so they had to abandon the idea.  We turn off coal and nuclear power plants and want to (substantially) increase electricity consumption through EVs...how can this work? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Solar

I've put the charts up before. I'm not really a lover of solar but it will become ubiquitous. Think about the poorest nations in the world and what do most of them have? A lot of sun. Think of the amount of money that some people will make turning some of those countries into energy providers. Chile already gives away electricity to its neighbours for free at times. 

Then think of every house with a solar roof and a battery pack. Charges the battery during the day and charges your car at night... 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

It is amazing to see how many solar panel are popping up when the $ numbers don’t really make sense yet. But at the current rate of innovation and savings, there will be more and more, and it will actually make the grid even more robust while significantly cutting down fossil resources use.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Simply put, only EU Nordic countries, Switzerland and USA and the economic force to develop a real EV network unless governments force the issue. Germany, maybe, but France, Spain and Italy?

Possible Tesla Mercedes collaboration:

https://apple.news/AKqdtHO2BSHuyDzUGzYqjsQ

I heard a global tire manufacturer indicate that tire wear can be 20-50% higher on "EVs like Tesla" due to weight and heat impacts... does that sound accurate to existing Tesla drivers? 

What are the favoured tire brands for a new Tesla? Do they run on a harder compound?

Speaking of solar power... how is tesla coming along witth those solar roofs? If a government REALLY wants to, they could easily make solar roofs mandatory on every newly built building me thinks.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Joost:

Speaking of solar power... how is tesla coming along witth those solar roofs? If a government REALLY wants to, they could easily make solar roofs mandatory on every newly built building me thinks.

California just did that.  https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/solar-power-mandated-for-all-new-california-homes

Joost:

Speaking of solar power... how is tesla coming along witth those solar roofs? If a government REALLY wants to, they could easily make solar roofs mandatory on every newly built building me thinks.

I've seen them. They are prohibitively expensive if you're looking at a purely financial decision but they are very very nice. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Exactly, I will be pricing one up for my summer house. Expensive but cool and will help on resale...

Just to be clear regarding China and dictatorship. The trade-off is not worth it. I’ll keep whatever freedom is left and walk first. 

My understanding is EV vehicles lose over 40% of the charge in cold weather. Not good.

Stress is man made.

nberry:

My understanding is EV vehicles lose over 40% of the charge in cold weather. Not good.

It's the nature of battery. They don't like cold nor heat.

Hence why I think hydrogen fuel cell, will be the better future.

The energy is not converted into electricity until the end for propulsion. 

Whoopsy,

 

It's the nature of battery. They don't like cold nor heat.

Hence why I think hydrogen fuel cell, will be the better future.

The energy is not converted into electricity until the end for propulsion. 

Hydrogen would require a completely new large scale storage and distribution system.  Electricity is already ubiquitous.

The peak power required for very short battery recharging times doesn’t need to be everywhere in the grid since many users can re charge over night at commonly available power levels.  Superchargers can be augmented with flywheel, supercapacitors, battery banks, to keep the peak grid demands under control.  The electrical grid is plenty capable today to support BEVs in large numbers.

IMHO, BEVs have a much lower barrier-to-change than does any kind of hydrogen-powered car.  By the time a hydrogen rollout got ready, BEVs will have slowly taken over and make hydrogen moot.

Also, hydrogen “refining” is currently very poor in energy efficiency.  If one relies on electrolysis to produce hydrogen, why not use the same electricity to just charge up a BEV?

--

Mike

918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Whoopsy:

 

It's the nature of battery. They don't like cold nor heat.

Hence why I think hydrogen fuel cell, will be the better future.

The energy is not converted into electricity until the end for propulsion. 

It can be natural gas which is available just below our feets and this is where the R&D is currently looking at

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Existing gas stations can be easily converted or add hydrogen refuelling capability.

In fact, locally quite few Shell stations already added hydrogen 'pumps'.

Yes in theory the existing gas stations can be converted to electric charging locations, but that would entitled the electric grid to be upgraded substantially to handle the enormous draw of charging current.

With the added fleet of EV cars lately, there is already addition draw on the grid that some locales can't handle. Imagine more of them using high speed charging. That's going to be a bloodbath fighting for $ to upgrade the grid.

Yes, a lot of EV owners can go the slow charge route and plug it inn at night at home, but majority of population aren't living in individual houses where they can plug in at home. A lot are living in apartment complexes without individual parking stalls that have plugs, or limited charging stalls,or don't even have parking period and have to park on the street. They would have to rely on a 'gas station' to charge their cars.

Rollout of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is slow, but same can be same of the initial EV rush. The technology just have to catch up.

EV is fine for moderate climate areas, where it doesn't get too warm or too cold, sweet spot for battery performance. But there are still plenty of people living away from moderate climate locations and a EV car just won't make sense for them with the reduced performance.  Fuel cell vehicles could be the solution to colder or hot areas on Earth.

the-missile:

Whoopsy:

 

It's the nature of battery. They don't like cold nor heat.

Hence why I think hydrogen fuel cell, will be the better future.

The energy is not converted into electricity until the end for propulsion. 

It can be natural gas which is available just below our feets and this is where the R&D is currently looking at

Burning natural gas is cleaner than gasoline, but it still produces CO2 and NOx.

As I mentioned before on another thread, the main issue is a clean&greener and more energy efficient way of mass producing the hydrogen.

I also believe full electric is just a temporary solution.

There is no try. Just do.

Tesla Model 3 cost surprised Porsche and Audi after reverse-engineering

https://apple.news/Aa3R7hxibQO2b0ZE45BvsUA

Once again, wake me up when I will be able to go to my dealer and by a decently priced good handling well finished German luxury EV, I will be the first one to buy a well specced Macan EV for $80k.

Reading anything on that site is like reading a JFK conspiracy site talking about government coverups............

Had a test drive in a Model 3 Performance earlier this week. WOW!!! What an great car. Playful, innovative, fun to drive and performance that put a big grin on my face with that instant torque. This is a much better car from a drivers perspective than the Model S, which in comparison feels like a big heavy boat with swampy suspension. Track-mode should be fun to play with and I would not hesitate to take this thing to a track or just a spirited drive in the country side!

Having driven almost everything in the segment (Audi RS4, BMW M3, AMG C63, etc) I'd pick the Tesla 3 Performance anytime over any of those for several reasons. It just feels like the Model 3 is fresh and simple (iPhone) compared with the complex and to some extent dated alternatives (Blackberry/Nokia). And yet surprisingly nimble and fun to drive even compared with the German performance sedans.

Can't see anything in the EV-segment that will directly compete with the Model 3 near term. Either the competition is more boring, more expensive, less range or less performance. Build quality and cabin materials seems great to me and the exaggerations on Internet by nay sayers is just pure FUD. Stereo was surprisingly good, the big glass roof give a nice feel in the cabin and seats very comfy. With Autopilot this will be great for road trips as well as those commutes to work.

Cool car that will find many happy owners the coming years!

lukestern:

Had a test drive in a Model 3 Performance earlier this week. WOW!!! What an great car. Playful, innovative, fun to drive and performance that put a big grin on my face with that instant torque. This is a much better car from a drivers perspective than the Model S, which in comparison feels like a big heavy boat with swampy suspension. Track-mode should be fun to play with and I would not hesitate to take this thing to a track or just a spirited drive in the country side!

Having driven almost everything in the segment (Audi RS4, BMW M3, AMG C63, etc) I'd pick the Tesla 3 Performance anytime over any of those for several reasons. It just feels like the Model 3 is fresh and simple (iPhone) compared with the complex and to some extent dated alternatives (Blackberry/Nokia). And yet surprisingly nimble and fun to drive even compared with the German performance sedans.

Can't see anything in the EV-segment that will directly compete with the Model 3 near term. Either the competition is more boring, more expensive, less range or less performance. Build quality and cabin materials seems great to me and the exaggerations on Internet by nay sayers is just pure FUD. Stereo was surprisingly good, the big glass roof give a nice feel in the cabin and seats very comfy. With Autopilot this will be great for road trips as well as those commutes to work.

Cool car that will find many happy owners the coming years!

An unbiased review. 

Stress is man made.

nberry:

lukestern:

Had a test drive in a Model 3 Performance earlier this week. WOW!!! What an great car. Playful, innovative, fun to drive and performance that put a big grin on my face with that instant torque. This is a much better car from a drivers perspective than the Model S, which in comparison feels like a big heavy boat with swampy suspension. Track-mode should be fun to play with and I would not hesitate to take this thing to a track or just a spirited drive in the country side!

Having driven almost everything in the segment (Audi RS4, BMW M3, AMG C63, etc) I'd pick the Tesla 3 Performance anytime over any of those for several reasons. It just feels like the Model 3 is fresh and simple (iPhone) compared with the complex and to some extent dated alternatives (Blackberry/Nokia). And yet surprisingly nimble and fun to drive even compared with the German performance sedans.

Can't see anything in the EV-segment that will directly compete with the Model 3 near term. Either the competition is more boring, more expensive, less range or less performance. Build quality and cabin materials seems great to me and the exaggerations on Internet by nay sayers is just pure FUD. Stereo was surprisingly good, the big glass roof give a nice feel in the cabin and seats very comfy. With Autopilot this will be great for road trips as well as those commutes to work.

Cool car that will find many happy owners the coming years!

An unbiased review. 

A real life review 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Whoopsy:

Yes in theory the existing gas stations can be converted to electric charging locations, but that would entitled the electric grid to be upgraded substantially to handle the enormous draw of charging current.

 

Nick, you must have missed my comment about local energy storage at the charging point to level out demand.  Flywheel motor-generator sets, battery  or super-capacitor banks, etc.  Not as bad as you make it sound.

Mike

918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Not sure what biased means these days . I just reported on my own honest opinion after having driven the Model 3. I'm completely sold on EVs as daily drivers and that is nothing I'm trying to hide either. I at least have owned several Porsches and other German performance cars so it's not that I'm coming from a Prius or similar.

For those who are on the curious side I highly recommend a test drive in a Model 3 Performance. You might be surprised how fun the car is to drive 

lukestern:

Not sure what biased means these days . I just reported on my own honest opinion after having driven the Model 3. I'm completely sold on EVs as daily drivers and that is nothing I'm trying to hide either. I at least have owned several Porsches and other German performance cars so it's not that I'm coming from a Prius or similar.

For those who are on the curious side I highly recommend a test drive in a Model 3 Performance. You might be surprised how fun the car is to drive 

hehe Luke, you are one of the biggest supporter of Tesla here, of course most will see it as a biased review, just like any articles from websites devoted to promoting EV 

All Teslas are great for straight line accelerations, you don't even have to mention those haha, it's an expected trait.

I didn't read about you doing the test drive on a mountain roads, how well does it corner? I know it will be great from corner exit to the next corner entry, but what about the handling during braking, turn in, trial braking, body control mid corner, and the power down exit part?

I guess you hear what you want to hear. I read him differently. He said it would be fun on the track and it compared well to the m3 etc.  What more would you like - your exact words about trail braking?  An emphatic enthusiast stamp of approval is required from a forum where the merits of a manual transmission are downplayed and manual shifting means timing button pushes?  Seriously?   

Leawood911:

I guess you hear what you want to hear. I read him differently. He said it would be fun on the track and it compared well to the m3 etc.  What more would you like - your exact words about trail braking?  An emphatic enthusiast stamp of approval is required from a forum where the merits of a manual transmission are downplayed and manual shifting means timing button pushes?  Seriously?   

If a Tesla comes even close to an M3 (or the other cars mentioned above) on a track or twisted mountain road I invite all of you for a drink. Honestly, it is Ok to be fascinated by a car after doing a drive but one should stay realistic. There are light years between this Tesla and proper sporty sedans. 

Leawood911:

I guess you hear what you want to hear. I read him differently. He said it would be fun on the track and it compared well to the m3 etc.  What more would you like - your exact words about trail braking?  An emphatic enthusiast stamp of approval is required from a forum where the merits of a manual transmission are downplayed and manual shifting means timing button pushes?  Seriously?   

After racing in a Cup car for a season last year in Europe, my mental metrics for judging a car has changed. It's not about straight line speed, (for that I would just drive the 918 all day, and the 918 can handles too). The joy of driving is from corners. A 911 needs proper trail braking to turn properly, and the art of trail braking is something to be lear nada mastered. There is this one section, Piff Puff, in Spa that the faster guy in the series trailed brake a right turn and continue trailing to the left turn right after. No one in the field can accomplish that, and that section is where he picked up major time against the whole field. When I was told that I look at the corner and like there is no way one can enter the first part that fast to need to trail brake 2 corners. I still have much to learn.

As for manual transmission, as decent speed yea manual is fine for shifting duties, but at higher speed it is simply more safe to have both hands on the wheel and shifting via paddles. It's still manual shifting, the car doesn't shift by itself, I still control the up shift and down shift points, so nothing is really lost.

Somehow I don't think a Model 3 will come close to a Panamera Turbo S in handling, or hell, a Cayenne Turbo S, I could probably lap the Model 3 on track with my Cayenne Turbo S with ease. And both of those Porsches weight a ton and being described as pigs. If you get a chance, take a hot lap taxi ride in a Panamera Turbo S, you will be amazed at how Porsche did the impossible, making a pig handles really well. I did, and that's the reason I just ordered one.

Whoopsy:

Somehow I don't think a Model 3 will come close to a Panamera Turbo S in handling, or hell, a Cayenne Turbo S, I could probably lap the Model 3 on track with my Cayenne Turbo S with ease.

 

All press reviews of the Model 3 are a disaster. Even for a middle class sedan it handles badly they say. Tons of understeer, too heavy, bad brakes etc. Maybe you can compare it to a small Ford or GM but nothing else.

Well clearly Americans just don’t care:

https://apple.news/AAprpXVbZQUu-jKGCGZNLFw

Europe is going to be a niche market for tesla anyway expect pocket of Nordic countries.

It is not surprising biased European reviews come out now to defend their industry, anyway since there is no charging infrastructure now nor enough money in households to have chargers at home in masses, it is a moot point. Handling on a mountain road? How many people even have a mountain road around them? Surely it is hard for this car enthusiast group here to comprehend that for 99% of the poluplation, the handling is good enough and far down the list of things that matter when purchasing a car.

MKSGR:

Whoopsy:

Somehow I don't think a Model 3 will come close to a Panamera Turbo S in handling, or hell, a Cayenne Turbo S, I could probably lap the Model 3 on track with my Cayenne Turbo S with ease.

All press reviews of the Model 3 are a disaster. Even for a middle class sedan it handles badly they say. Tons of understeer, too heavy, bad brakes etc. Maybe you can compare it to a small Ford or GM but nothing else.

It will be interesting to see how the Tesla Model 3 Performance Pack is in "Track" mode on the Nurburgring? 

...surely that's the industry benchmark!