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    Nov 20, 2002 8:33:50 PM

    Tschebru
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    The best solution for a 996

    I love cabriolets, but i also like the c4S model as well. but the problem now ist the AWD.
    I hate it even thuogh its a visco-clutsch.
    So In my opinion the c2S cabriolet would be the best solution. Now people could say, why u don't buy a turbo cabrio, wich will be out soon? answer: its too expensive!!!

    Nov 20, 2002 8:48:04 PM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    Reply to: Tschebru

    And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    Welcome to the board!
    So a Turbo cab will not be good for you.
    What you need to do if ou have the money is call Alois Ruf and ask him for a Turbo R cab 2WD, he will do it you know!!!
    Fanch.
    BTW, I read Ruf is going to work on Maseratis, is that true?

    Nov 20, 2002 8:57:05 PM

    Tschebru
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    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    hi
    yes i know he will do, but like u say: if you HAVE the monet

    Nov 20, 2002 10:10:07 PM

    macsak
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    Reply to: FutchM

    RUF is a Maserati dealer, so it may

    be that he will soon be modifying Masers
    last oct i saw the first new maser in germany at his shop in pfaffenhausen

    aloha

    steve

    Nov 20, 2002 10:33:08 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    One of my favorites

    Nov 21, 2002 9:36:56 AM

    Avoe
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    This Car is very nice, but what is the price tag for a baby like this? I just don't like the idea that you can get this car only with tiptronic.
    There are several other tuning companies which install for you the originall Turbo engine in a 996. It costs around 50000 US, with everything, and the TT motor is of course much better than all the turbo tuned 996 engines.
    But today it doesn't seem to be very smart to make such a tuning. Because of the fact that the TT Cab. is comming very soon.
    Does anybody now if porsche already takes official orders? My dealer told me one month ago that they are only taking notes who is interested, and some costumers already left deposit.
    I guess if they do, very soon you will have to wait for the TT cab. at least 1 year.
    The 4s Cab I would never buy. For this price you can get, a c2 cab, with some goodies and 345HP.

    Tscherbu as I can see you are already posting like a champion,
    Call me later, maybe we go for a coffee in the evening.

    br, Avi

    Nov 21, 2002 10:25:50 AM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    This Turbo cab was ordered by a woman who specifically wanted it in tiptronic!!!
    But you can have the manual if you want to.
    Alois will do whatever you want.
    But you're right with the turbo cab coming (hopefully!) this doesn't make much sense.
    Fanch.

    Nov 21, 2002 1:18:19 PM

    RCA
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    4WD a problem? Why? Since my Lancia Delta HF Integrale days, I always love to have 4WD on my cars.
    Would you please specify why you don't like a 4WD system on Porsche cars? I'm curious.

    Nov 21, 2002 2:57:46 PM

    Tschebru
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    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    yes baby i will call you;)

    Nov 21, 2002 3:01:02 PM

    Tschebru
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    i dont think that the car on the picture ist an original 996turbo, because it doesn't have the openings on the sides.

    i think it was a c4 cab. and the engine is a tuned 996 machine. and the sides are from the C4S!!!
    take care...

    Nov 21, 2002 3:06:43 PM

    Tschebru
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    hi mr. germany
    actually it its not a problem. but i love it to slide corners and long curves. and with the awd-models of porsche its not that easy, and the car has more weight. i drove the 996 4S. yes you can make a slides but in the meanwhile the car drifts more and more at the outer side of of the curve because the visco lutch gives more power to the front wheels while you makle the slide
    and with the rwd you can slide wher ever and whenever you want.

    Nov 21, 2002 3:10:33 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: Tschebru

    Re: And it's AWD which you seem to hate!!!

    It based on a C4C true.
    But not C4S, this car is a narrow body.
    And you don't have the Ruf holes on the sides because according to Ruf engineers, the air backflow redirected into the engine compartment was sufficient for the engine to run.
    This car is not used as a racer, its owner uses it as a very fast cabriolet GT (lucky girl)
    The R turbo coupe on the other hand has those weird holes on the sides but narrow body (up to the client really, each car is tailor made )
    Fanch.

    Nov 21, 2002 4:30:40 PM

    RCA
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    Mr. Germany? Thanks but I guess I'm not pretty enough.

    You like to slide? Well, when I did my racing classes, I actually learned NOT to slide because sliding/drifting always costs time.
    The setup of modern Porsche cars is a setup to assure the safiest driving experience even for novice drivers.
    If you want a different setup, no problem. H&R offers a very nice coilover kit for the 996 Turbo and with the right setup, right swaybars and some further mods, you are able to drift as much as you want. But why would I want that? I don't get it. I'm happy if I don't slide. Maybe my Lancia rallye days fed me up with sliding and I don't consider sliding/drifting something useful on asphalt or during everyday driving. Yes, it is fun but...for what? It kills the tires, probably the drivetrain and might even kill a person if I'd do it on public streets.

    It is winter time soon: maybe sliding in a slide would be more fun?!

    Regarding weight: try to outrun a 996 C4 with a 996 C2 (same suspension setup). No chance.
    I agree a bit on the 996 C4 S because it uses the 996 Turbo body. But even the 996 C4 S is tough to beat with a 996 C2...unless you're Mr. Walter Röhrl.

    Nov 21, 2002 4:59:37 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: RCA

    What is fun?

    Well, I can see what both of you mean.
    How do you define fun?
    See, if you enjoy feeling your car sliding slightly ouside the corner in oversteer and then, just a little bit of countersteer with the steering wheel to put it back in place, yes to some people that's fun I agree.
    But like Chirstian said it's dangerous on the open road.
    But it is definitly not the solution to make a good time on the track.
    But sometimes, it helps "placing" the car in a turn just by "kicking " its butt gently (hence sliding) you can see all the rally cars do this on hairpins turns, and on ice racing too.
    But on the dry track (Do F1 slide? nope...)
    So in the end, it depends on what people consider to be fun.
    I have a C4: going through a corner without lifting my right foot and feeling the car fighting against the laws of physics, fun? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Accelerating earlier than anyone else at the exit of a corner, fun? YES!!!!!!
    It all depends on the driver really which is why Porsche proposes both, man they're smart
    Fanch.

    Nov 21, 2002 8:22:20 PM

    Avoe
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    Hi,

    Chris in this point I have to correct you.
    996 C2 needs 8,17 for Nordschleife and 15,9 for Hockenheim.
    996 C4 needs 8,23....................... and 16,6.
    Info from Sport Auto.
    Of course the 4wd is an advantege, but in a car with 300 or 320 HP it doesn't make any sense because it brings 100kg more weight. I agreee with you it's safer, and it's also easear to drive fast and pi pa po. But if you know how to drive a car to the limit, than you are with the c2 faster. If you don't know how to drive a car to the limit than you are with a C4 much faster than with a C2 even if you have 100 kg more.
    Anyway 4wd with the visco cluth makes only sense if you have a lot of power, and if the power is turbocharged than it makes even more sense. Becuase else you loose to much power on steering wheels.
    But the c2 has a very good grip, usually no wheel is steering in dry conditions. Or even not out of curves. You really have a high grip quality. So 4wd I don't think you need on the standard carrera.
    But everything depends on the driver. Some like it this way some like it that way. As fanch said, porsche know what they do.

    br, Avi

    Nov 21, 2002 8:32:51 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Re: The best solution for a 996

    In reply to:
    Chris in this point I have to correct you.
    996 C2 needs 8,17 for Nordschleife and 15,9 for Hockenheim.
    996 C4 needs 8,23....................... and 16,6.
    Info from Sport Auto.



    I'm also sure you read the Sport Auto's comment on the first 996 a few issues later on when they mentioned that this car was in a pretty good shape. How else would you explain that that car was 2 seconds faster from 0-200 kph than the 996 C4?! And how else would you explain that that car was as fast as the MY 2002 996 C2 with enhanced suspension and 20 HP more?!

    You should check the "handling test results" and you'll understand what I mean.

    Nov 21, 2002 8:47:14 PM

    Avoe
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    Look if you are thinking like this, so we are not able to trust anybody. I don't even trust you from today.
    No, seriously. 8,17 was the best they have tested, but everytime they tested an other car, and they take the c2 as comparison, they wrote 8,20.
    The fact is 100kg are 100KG, and for 300/320 young horses it makes a difference. And let's not forget the brakes, and the fact that with 100kg less, you can brake a bit later. You are faster in the curves. The only advantege you have with 4wd you can accelarate a bit earlier, and this not our of every curve. depends.

    Nov 21, 2002 9:02:14 PM

    RCA
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    Re: The best solution for a 996

    But the 4WD doesn't add 100 kg to the weight. 45-55 kg...MAXIMUM.

    You don't have to trust me but I try to tell my experience and from my experience, it really takes a good driver like Walter Röhrl to be able to outrun a C4 in a C2. But maybe we all are great drivers and earn our money with the wrong job.

    Nov 22, 2002 12:26:12 AM

    LG1
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Re: The best solution for a 996

    Actually, as power increases, a 4wd set up that only gives power to the front wheels when rear wheels start loosing grip, is more effective, esp. on a track.
    You have to think that during a curve the contact patch of the inside tyres is dramatically decreased, to the point that most of the work is done by the two outside tyres(this is the principle behind the effectiveness of negative camber).
    If the car has a lot of power and torque and is rwd as you apply throttle almost all of the torque is basically transferred to only one wheel, whereas in a 4wd the torque would get some help from the outside front tyre, making it possible to transfer more power to the road.

    This is especially true for high torque turbocharged engines.

    Nov 23, 2002 10:25:05 AM

    william
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    Re: Throttle control

    4WD is a very powerful weapon especially for a heavy weight turbo car, it can easily provide more grip to aid driver's error like throttle control which is a very important driving techique people usually overlooked.

    But one thing I like to correct people misconception. People think 4WD can acclerate faster than a 2WD car. Thats WRONG! 2WD car will always accelerate faster than a 4WD given the fact that they have the same weight, power and setup according to the law of physics. It can only aid traction to correct driver's error, good for standstill 0-100km/h run.

    Another word, given two of the same highly professional drivers in both a 2WD porsche 996 Turbo and a 4WD 996 Turbo. It will be very obvious that the 2WD 996 will achieve better time.

    2WD car will always be faster if and only if driven perfectly. But given a normal driver, 4WD is the most powerful wepon without the need to moderate throttle as sensitive as a 2WD car. Throttle control is something that take many years of professional driving experience to master. Imagine there are 20 different level in the throttle. Most people only use 3 or 4 level (soft, medium, medium hard and hard). When a race driver comming out from a corners take at least 20 level highly detail throttle control to avoid any lost of traction. Those information usually recorded into the computer D.A. system and show the graph of the whole throttle control process. Its pretty amazying.... How good of a driver you are is simply shown on the graph.

    When you talked about drifting. Drifting require detail throttle control also, not just slam on the gas to kick the rear end out, little girl know how to do that A good drifter can balance the car sideway without any sudden movement. That's why the best drift you see in the "Drift Challenge" mostly are 4WD cars!!

    If you want a car to drift nice, choose a 4WD. If you want a car to get the best time right out the box get a 4WD . If you want a car to improve your skill, 2WD

    Nov 23, 2002 1:13:41 PM

    Tschebru
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: The best solution for a 996

    no no i don't want to be walter röhrl, but i would like to drive like him . I know that slidong adn drifting costs time on the race track. but i have never been on a track. what i mean, and you said that, is fun. It simply fun. eventough the girls like it .

    and your right it is dangerous if you don'T know how to di it. i dont say i'm a professional driver, because i'm not. but i do that Sh.t as carefully as i can

    and thank you for the good advises and also the tip with H&R good company

    Nov 23, 2002 1:27:55 PM

    Tschebru
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: What is fun?

    i agree with both, fanch and mr. germany

    youre both right.
    but dont think that every corner i drove with the porshe was accompanied by screetching wheels. but sometimes when i can't resist i have to oversteer the car
    i can't describe the feeling of catchin back the rear just with the gas-pedal in combination with careful steering
    but its also action to drive a curve as fast as you can at the limit: just 1 or 2 kph and it's over. thats also a feelig!!!!!

    Nov 23, 2002 1:42:09 PM

    Tschebru
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: The best solution for a 996

    no rc, i hae to agree with avi i think he is right

    the c4 has not more power then the c2, the only thig it has more trhan the c2 are 65 kilos!!!!

    Nov 23, 2002 1:50:39 PM

    Tschebru
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    Re: Throttle control

    hi willy boy,
    most of the things you saidf was true except of one thing. the drifts. 2wd cars are better to drift. and if you saw the last drift-chalenge at the sachskurve you can see that most of the winners were BMW's. M5's and M3's. i think i don't have to say more about sliding oder drifting with 2wd cars

    Nov 23, 2002 9:27:50 PM

    william
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    Re: hmm..

    Somehow, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Sounds to me you are those punk kid who pull handbreaks and powerslide around intesection? Am I correct ? Just joking ;) :D

    4WD can drift much better than a 2WD with less skill needed, take my word for it. Because less opposite lock action needed where the front wheel apply traction equalivent to half a opposite lock. That's mean you can go into corner "much higher speed" than a 2WD without the fear of not enough time to apply countersteer.

    Also, In drift challenge, the judge have many aspect to evluate, like smothness, difficult level..etc For many years, I heard the Japanese rally driver in a yellow Evolution rally car won? A BMW M5 won??? an overweight sedan won a drift challenge?? What kind of drift challenge is it???

    Nov 23, 2002 9:33:00 PM

    william
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    Re: even tough the girls like it

    LOL, you powerslide your car is to impress some girls??

    Nov 23, 2002 10:58:39 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: william

    Re: even tough the girls like it

    In reply to:
    LOL, you powerslide your car is to impress some girls??



    Well, I'm sure it would impress my 2-year old girl.

    Nov 24, 2002 3:49:04 AM

    testdrv321
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    Reply to: RCA

    2wd vs 4wd

    Here in the US we had this arguement 2wd vs 4wd recently. I think the final consensus was we need to keep arguing but should be doing it over a pint in a bar somwhere.

    I like 2wd, my personal preference. I've driven both and find the Porsche C4 to be barely a 4wd car. It drives more like a 2wd with a little extra help here and there. I guess its the diff.

    It does add weight and resistance which in theory will slow down its accel. You can definitely launch the 4wd porsches a little harder and the 0-60 may be a little quicker. Once physics kicks in, it will be slower from 60-top speed. It shoudl also have a slower top speed. The differences will be pretty small though.

    On the track, our discussion led us to say it depends on the track, driver and conditions. A professional driver will on a fast track in clean dry connditions should be faster in the 2wd, anyone else or if the track is very tight or damp, etc.... the 4wd should be faster.

    I just prefer the 2wd, it seems purer to me. I like the way it drives, I like that it does not slide evenly and that it does not pull me through a turn. If I like that I would have bought a TT. Just my presonal preference.

    Nov 24, 2002 6:39:31 PM

    william
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: your little girl

    have better taste then that

    Nov 25, 2002 8:40:10 AM

    Tschebru
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    Re: hmm..

    hi,

    of course i know what i'm talking about. sometimes when you got very tight curves or corners it isbetter to have a 2wd-car.
    like you said, you don't need as much skill with the 4wd as you need with the 2wd. but if you know how to do it ist better with the 2wd
     
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