Crown

"BMW plots (new M1) supercar to take on McLaren" (Autocar)

• Hybrid-powered super-sports flagship will be based on the i8 but with twice as much power
• What we think a BMW hybrid-powered supercar could look like
• BMW is not expected to replace its i8 plug-in hybrid

(2 January 2019)

BMW is actively considering introducing a flagship super-sports car to its line-up. The McLaren 570S-baiting package would bring together the brand’s advancements in electrification, light-weighting and new materials. 

The i8 is currently BMW’s principal electrified sports car, with the new8 Series becoming the more traditional flagship GT. Autocar understands a direct replacement for the i8 is unlikely, although BMW has yet to confirm this publicly. 

A new super-sports car would take inspiration from the i8 and could serve as an indirect replacement. However, it would have a higher price point and more power and sit at the top of the M performance division's line-up.

Klaus Fröhlich, the BMW board member responsible for product development, hinted that the super-sports car is in the works. “If you are an engineer, once in your life, you want to make a super-sports car,” Fröhlich told Autocar. “I think partial electrification will enable that. 

“If we have these very compact and very powerful electric driving units, if we have a carbonfibre chassis – for example, the i8’s – and if we still have high-performance engines, then, if you do it cleverly, you can combine them into a real performance package.” 

He continued: “If you look at the supercars – the McLarens, the Ferraris – beyond 2020, they will be all partially electric. And if you look at power plug-in hybrids we are planning for today, an electric motor in our PHEVs has a little bit more than 99bhp and 184lb ft of torque.” 

The model, which could arrive by 2023, would use a hybrid powertrain consisting of a petrol engine and electric motors and a chassis heavily based on the existing lightweight carbonfibre architecture found in the i8. But a much larger combustion engine than the i8’s three-cylinder unit is expected, likely moving up to six cylinders. Power should push 700bhp, nearly double the i8’s 369bhp and exceeding next year’s M8, which is tipped to deliver around 620bhp. 

Fröhlich added that BMW’s PHEV e-motors will have more than 197bhp and up to 378lb ft within a few years. 

“So if you see this e-motor in a car which can give you in milliseconds the push formerly found in a V8 engine, then you can have a very sporty feel from this power PHEV – and it fits perfectly to the M brand,” he said. 

A BMW super-sports car could easily exceed the i8’s £114,000 price and would be likely to target hybrid competitors, including the Honda NSX, and conventionally powered alternatives such as the McLaren 570s at £150,000 and beyond. 

Production numbers would be strictly limited to sustain the car’s exclusivity and retain residual values, which are a weak point of the i8. 

Future BMWs to ooze flex appeal

BMW’s M brand will go electric in the future, but hybrids will rule the roost, according to product development boss Klaus Fröhlich. 

“M will also be electric in the future, but we will work very heavily on partial electrification on M cars. This is because they do not only need acceleration on the straight. They have to drive around corners and race tracks, so weight is an issue and electric vehicles still have a weight penalty for range,” he said. 

Each of BMW’s two platforms are able to accommodate combustion engines, plug-in hybrids and electric powertrains, which means that every BMW from 2021 has the capability to be electric. 

Fröhlich said: “The M cars are derived from that architecture, the electric i cars will be derived from that architecture and I think flexibility to react to different demands all over the world is key. 

“For example, we can’t afford to have a 7 Series on an electric platform and a conventional platform, so the 7 Series for China will be a lot of EVs and, in America, perhaps we will have power PHEVs or perhaps there will be M Performance derivatives.”

Link:  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bmw-plots-supercar-take-mclaren

What's coming next? Hardcore version of the hardcore 600LT?

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We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Spider, notice the shut lines on the right side of the pic. 

Ahh, I see. Thank you. 

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

hunterone:

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

Aren't Trofeo R an optional OEM tire for that car?  Or just the LT's?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

No Factory Option. And the Trofeo R is still behind the Cup 2 R.

This disappointing lap time on the Ring of the 720S is not good for McLaren.

Very rare to have McL models running through the Supertest and not a great result :-(

AMG GTR / Lotus Exige Cup 430 Type 25 / 991.1 GT3 RS / Cayman GT4 / 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 / 997.2 GT3 / Lotus Exige S / 964 Turbo 3.3

hunterone:

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

Also GT2RS has 265 f 325 r vs 245/305 for the Macca, lot more grippy Cup 2 R rubber being deployed 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

i think for this tyre its a great result.

TB993tt:

hunterone:

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

Also GT2RS has 265 f 325 r vs 245/305 for the Macca, lot more grippy Cup 2 R rubber being deployed 

Well that's the build in weakness of the 12C platform. 

McLaren is limited by it and can't use any bigger tires front and rear.

  ↵

hunterone:

i think for this tyre its a great result.

I agree.  Very few cars are this fast with any tires (and even fewer on such a streetable tire).

For comparison, a Porsche 918 was 5 seconds slower but had faster tires (Cup2 N0).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_auto_(Germany)#Supertest_Nordschleife

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

hunterone:

No Factory Option. And the Trofeo R is still behind the Cup 2 R.

Ok, but as a fan and user of Trofeo R, is the Cup 2 R not pushing the envelope somewhat? The Trofeo is hardly useable  in moist conditions, let alone rain. I can't imagine what a Cup 2 R is like during a downpour on the return leg of a trackday... 

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker:

hunterone:

No Factory Option. And the Trofeo R is still behind the Cup 2 R.

Ok, but as a fan and user of Trofeo R, is the Cup 2 R not pushing the envelope somewhat? The Trofeo is hardly useable  in moist conditions, let alone rain. I can't imagine what a Cup 2 R is like during a downpour on the return leg of a trackday... 

Absolutely. Three remarks:

- the Trofeo is a standard factory option you can order with the 720s

- last info I have is that the Cup 2R is officially not available for the GT2RS as Porsche's legal department has discontinued approval for this tyre

- the time delta between Corsa (720s test car) and Cup 2R on the NBR will typically be in the range of 8-10s

In summary, this puts the 720s test result in a very different (positive) perspective 

MKSGR:

Porker:

hunterone:

No Factory Option. And the Trofeo R is still behind the Cup 2 R.

Ok, but as a fan and user of Trofeo R, is the Cup 2 R not pushing the envelope somewhat? The Trofeo is hardly useable  in moist conditions, let alone rain. I can't imagine what a Cup 2 R is like during a downpour on the return leg of a trackday... 

Absolutely. Three remarks:

- the Trofeo is a standard factory option you can order with the 720s

No, you can have only as a no cost option Tyres - Pirelli P ZEROTM CORSA

- last info I have is that the Cup 2R is officially not available for the GT2RS as Porsche's legal department has discontinued approval for this tyre

- the time delta between Corsa (720s test car) and Cup 2R on the NBR will typically be in the range of 8-10s

In summary, this puts the 720s test result in a very different (positive) perspective 

AM

McLaren 720S Supertest

NBR: 7:08 (Vmax: 318 km/h)

HHR: 1:05,5 (Vmax: 234 km/h)

Acceleration:

0-40: 1,1
0-100: 2,9
0-160: 5,3
0-200: 7,6

Braking:

0-100 (Cold): 33,6 m
0-100 (Warm): 30,6 m
0-200 (Warm): 114,6 m

Powet output: 748 PS / 830 Nm

Weight: 1,437 kg (F: 594 kg / R: 843 kg)

Tires: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (Optional)

Total Points: 99 / 100

Guys, this was a HOT LAP, not the final thing. Same with the Huracan Performante when they tested it. This is the fastest lap time they could achieve but they could have done better but weren't able to for whatever reason(s). I haven't read the test yet, so...

I still believe that the 720S is the best performance offer on the market right now for the money it costs. A hypercar at the cost of a super sportscar. This hasn't changed with my Performante order, the 720S is the Autobahn king and probably the best performance/value car on the market.

So why didn't I take one (price is very similar to Performante with the options I chose)? Very simple: Different priorities (in my case: sound/emotional engagement, AWD and the fact that I have a very close relationship to the Lambo dealership).

Also, I don't remember who told me but I think someone told me many months ago that the 720S doesn't really benefit from "better" tires, the Corsa has been specifically "tuned" for the 720S and is the best tire for this car considering it's power and traction setup.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

What is also quite interessting is a better time with the Corsas than with the Trofeos in Hockenheim. I do understand it. As written in the article maybe that batch of Trofeos had a problem.

Itsme:

What is also quite interessting is a better time with the Corsas than with the Trofeos in Hockenheim. I do understand it. As written in the article maybe that batch of Trofeos had a problem.

Wrote a possible explanation in the post above yours...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Maybe. But McLaren supported both (!!) test cars with a bunch of Trofeos. They should know which tire is best. 

If you deliver the test car only with the normal tires most people with knowledge about tracking a car will think "even faster with the Trofeos"

Itsme:

Maybe. But McLaren supported both (!!) test cars with a bunch of Trofeos. They should know which tire is best. 

If you deliver the test car only with the normal tires most people with knowledge about tracking a car will think "even faster with the Trofeos"

Maybe they had pressure from the press to offer a "sportier" tire but in the end, it didn't pay off? 

Maybe they wanted to make their point by "look, we tried, the Trofeo isn't faster..."? 

I don't have a clue.
 

Still...I like the 720S a lot. For this kind of money, this car is basically a "piss .ff" Porsche and Co. from McLaren. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Whoopsy:

TB993tt:

hunterone:

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

Also GT2RS has 265 f 325 r vs 245/305 for the Macca, lot more grippy Cup 2 R rubber being deployed 

 

Well that's the build in weakness of the 12C platform. 

McLaren is limited by it and can't use any bigger tires front and rear.

 

Do you have any source for this statement other than anecdotal, doesn't sound plausible to me and also the 720 carbon tub is a later more developed generation.

I tend to believe more that Mclaren are going for lightness with the thinnest rubber which will do the job, the 570 has a similar tub and that runs 225/285 set up this is to give the car a certain feel to the driving and it does, the 570 feels delightfully light and moves around nicely....

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

TB993tt:

Whoopsy:

TB993tt:

hunterone:

Tyres. Flugplatz Corner 168 kmh is not Cup 2 R 185 kmh Teritory.

Also GT2RS has 265 f 325 r vs 245/305 for the Macca, lot more grippy Cup 2 R rubber being deployed 

 

Well that's the build in weakness of the 12C platform. 

McLaren is limited by it and can't use any bigger tires front and rear.

 

Do you have any source for this statement other than anecdotal, doesn't sound plausible to me and also the 720 carbon tub is a later more developed generation.

I tend to believe more that Mclaren are going for lightness with the thinnest rubber which will do the job, the 570 has a similar tub and that runs 225/285 set up this is to give the car a certain feel to the driving and it does, the 570 feels delightfully light and moves around nicely....

Up till now, every single McLaren, from 12C to 650S to 675LT to P1, to 540C to 570S to 600LT to 720S, all have the same wheelbase and hard points. That's a hall mark of a 'platform'. I believe the Senna also. 

It's sort of like Porsche going from .1 to .2 

As McLarens are built on a carbon tub vs a unibody, the tub itself can be easily modified, as long as it fits within the space as defined by the platform hard points. One could think of them as building an R8 vs a Huracan. 

But the 720S is a bigger step than the rest, more stuff is changed vs the previous versions. Most notably the engine got bigger.

The tire width issue is confined by the hard points of the platform. Their initial thinking was lightness, you are correct. But that was on paper. In the real world it would seems the tire width is the limiting factor to their cars' performance, 

See no farther than the P1. It was limited by it's tires, even with McLaren's excellent traction control and Trofeo R, it was struggling to put down all the power effectively, hence being slower than the LaFerrari and 918. 

They had a few years under their belt to tune the traction control more, the results is that the 720S and Senna became that much better at putting own power, especially on corner exits, to become that much faster.

McLaren don't make that many cars, so this strategy works, just like Aston did with the VH platform. The Aston one is more flexible as it can have different hard points across the range. But the Mclaren platform is newer and more advanced and performs better.

I have to imagine McLaren is hard at work working on their next platform, which will make their cars that much faster still in the future. They have already learn a lot with the 12C platform and know the weaknesses. 

One of the reasons for going with narrower than expected front tire width in the first place was to make the car 'safer', on paper it should understeer first when it runs out of grip sooner in the front. One way to combat the engine over powering the rear tires. 

Ex-McLaren designer Frank Stephenson is a friend and we had discussions about the McLaren cars before. 

TB993tt:

I tend to believe more that Mclaren are going for lightness with the thinnest rubber which will do the job, the 570 has a similar tub and that runs 225/285 set up this is to give the car a certain feel to the driving and it does, the 570 feels delightfully light and moves around nicely....

Yes, but they kept these same skinny tires on the track-focused 600LT, so I tend to believe this is a chassis limitation and not a preference of McLaren.... 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

According to the SportAuto supertest article the 720S has too much of a road/track compromise rather soft suspension to be able to fully use the 748 HP measured on the test car. They also claim that some downforce is missing and the car is dancing on the rear on braking. And road tyres instead of semis on most of the other cars it is compared to which are track-focused versions (GT3(RS), GT2RS, AMG GTR, Performante, etc.).

I believe these points are fair comments from the magazine. At the end the 720S is rather to be compared to a 488 GTB or Turbo S in terms of positioning, it is not yet the track-focused version LT which is due to come in 2020 I believe. Then it should be a different game vs. other track-focused models...

--

AMG GTR / Lotus Exige Cup 430 Type 25 / 991.1 GT3 RS / Cayman GT4 / 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 / 997.2 GT3 / Lotus Exige S / 964 Turbo 3.3

Whoopsy:

Up till now, every single McLaren, from 12C to 650S to 675LT to P1, to 540C to 570S to 600LT to 720S, all have the same wheelbase and hard points. That's a hall mark of a 'platform'. I believe the Senna also. 

It's sort of like Porsche going from .1 to .2 

As McLarens are built on a carbon tub vs a unibody, the tub itself can be easily modified, as long as it fits within the space as defined by the platform hard points. One could think of them as building an R8 vs a Huracan. 

But the 720S is a bigger step than the rest, more stuff is changed vs the previous versions. Most notably the engine got bigger.

The tire width issue is confined by the hard points of the platform. Their initial thinking was lightness, you are correct. But that was on paper. In the real world it would seems the tire width is the limiting factor to their cars' performance, 

See no farther than the P1. It was limited by it's tires, even with McLaren's excellent traction control and Trofeo R, it was struggling to put down all the power effectively, hence being slower than the LaFerrari and 918. 

They had a few years under their belt to tune the traction control more, the results is that the 720S and Senna became that much better at putting own power, especially on corner exits, to become that much faster.

McLaren don't make that many cars, so this strategy works, just like Aston did with the VH platform. The Aston one is more flexible as it can have different hard points across the range. But the Mclaren platform is newer and more advanced and performs better.

I have to imagine McLaren is hard at work working on their next platform, which will make their cars that much faster still in the future. They have already learn a lot with the 12C platform and know the weaknesses. 

One of the reasons for going with narrower than expected front tire width in the first place was to make the car 'safer', on paper it should understeer first when it runs out of grip sooner in the front. One way to combat the engine over powering the rear tires. 

Ex-McLaren designer Frank Stephenson is a friend and we had discussions about the McLaren cars before. 

Very interesting, thanks for sharing the info 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

GoHardGT3RS:

According to the SportAuto supertest article the 720S has too much of a road/track compromise rather soft suspension to be able to fully use the 748 HP measured on the test car. They also claim that some downforce is missing and the car is dancing on the rear on braking. And road tyres instead of semis on most of the other cars it is compared to which are track-focused versions (GT3(RS), GT2RS, AMG GTR, Performante, etc.).

I believe these points are fair comments from the magazine. At the end the 720S is rather to be compared to a 488 GTB or Turbo S in terms of positioning, it is not yet the track-focused version LT which is due to come in 2020 I believe. Then it should be a different game vs. other track-focused models...

Did they measure the downforce at 200kph ? Can you share the numbers ?

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

Yes they did as always in their supertest:

> front: 63 kg

> rear: 72 kg

As comparaison, values front/rear for other models: 488GTB (82/123), GT2RS (49/93), Performante (52/86), AMG GTR (-33/54)

AMG GTR / Lotus Exige Cup 430 Type 25 / 991.1 GT3 RS / Cayman GT4 / 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 / 997.2 GT3 / Lotus Exige S / 964 Turbo 3.3

GoHardGT3RS:

Yes they did as always in their supertest:

> front: 63 kg

> rear: 72 kg

As comparaison, values front/rear for other models: 488GTB (82/123), GT2RS (49/93), Performante (52/86), AMG GTR (-33/54)

Many thanks.

I found a copy of the test on the German Car Forum but I don't understand German, could you explain to me why the dyno test stopped at 6600rpm ? Is it because they had found the peak ?

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.