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    Sep 17, 2004 1:23:02 PM

    Guykoken
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    Guykoken
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    I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it




    Did you buy your GT2 or PCCB equipped GT3 or TT in reliance on the Factory's/ PCNA's longevity claims and with the intention of tracking your vehicle? If so, you have a cause of action against Porsche A.G. and PCNA for their deceit. The damages to which you should be entitled comprise your cost of the PCCB's, the cost of switching to the standard cast iron disc system, reasonable compensation for lost track time, and, possibly, punitive damages, to punish Porsche A.G. and PCNA for their lies.

    If you are one of Porsche's PCCB casualties, send me an E-mail at the address noted below . I am organizing my fellow victims to pursue our claims together, through a single attorney whom we will retain together.

    Our causes of action are not grounded in contract, but rather in tort. You don't have to have purchased your PCCB-equipped Porsche in the U.S.A., or to have purchased it new, to pursue you claim successfully. Rather, you just have to have relied to your detriment on Porsche's BS.

    Please let me hear from you.
    Richard A. Bain.
    rabain@rogers.com

    Sep 18, 2004 9:50:16 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    dhayek
    Loc: Beirut , Lebanon
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    Reply to: Guykoken

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    i would advice you to take nberry as an attorney for this cause ,i am sure no one will take action against porsche better than him ,and i am sure he will do it free of charge

    Sep 18, 2004 12:45:09 PM

    dedam
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    dedam
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    i would advice you to take nberry as an attorney for this cause ,i am sure no one will take action against porsche better than him ,and i am sure he will do it free of charge

    Sep 18, 2004 1:21:51 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Reply to: Guykoken

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Dear Richard,

    I understand your frustration but I don't think you have much chances to win the case because you're not the first one who tried.
    Porsche doesn't approve track racing, no matter if PCCB or not, so track racing voids the warranty. Case closed.

    But of course you can try it...like others did before.

    Only one question: are you an owner who had an issue with PCCB? If yes, please confirm. If not I would kindly ask you to refrain from further postings regarding this issue.
    We don't allow any commercial advertising, not even for attorneys.

    Sep 18, 2004 1:46:18 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Porsche doesn't approve track racing, no matter if PCCB or not, so track racing voids the warranty. Case closed.



    Very true but, oh the irony

    Sep 20, 2004 11:01:50 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Carlos, show me ONE SINGLE car manufacturer who provides a warranty for track racing. You're free to include manufacturers of real race cars like Porsche Motorsports, etc. Nobody gives you a warranty if you track race your car, not even for a real race car with improved and strenghtened parts for track racing.

    People who want to track race their car and don't want to loose the warranty have to join the official Porsche driver ed events. You can't seriously ask from a manufacturer to provide a warranty for a car which is used for track racing.
    You want to seriously track race your car? You're on your own.

    But I agree that in the past, there have been some "mistakes" made by Porsche. The first generation PCCB is one example, another example would be the M96/M97 engines oil distribution issue with slicks and the "body cracks issue with lowered coilover kits/lowering sprigns" on older 996/986.

    And maybe Porsche should also tell people that the Boxster is not intended for track racing, it has never been developped for this purpose. The 911 is a different story, especially the GT models.

    Sep 20, 2004 1:33:41 PM

    Paul Fanning
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    Paul Fanning
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Chevrolet will warrentee their cars even if problems occur on the track. I know this because a friend of mine threw a rod on the track in his Corvette Z06 and Chevrolet installed a new engine under warrentee fully aware of the fact that he was on the track when it occurred.

    Paul

    Sep 20, 2004 1:37:10 PM

    watt
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    watt
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    Reply to: Paul Fanning

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Ferrari covers track failures unlike Porsche. agree that no one would cover actual track racing

    Sep 20, 2004 4:34:58 PM

    Scott in Houston
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    Reply to: watt

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    watt said:
    Ferrari covers track failures unlike Porsche. agree that no one would cover actual track racing



    Yeah.. for that whole year or 2!
    Ferrari's warranty is nuts.

    Sep 20, 2004 4:39:04 PM

    Gregor
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    Gregor
    Loc: Steckborn , Switzerland
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    Reply to: watt

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Guys,

    What I hear from RC is that car manufacturers will "not warrantee" technical failures that occurred on race tracks. However, I personally had an exceptionally good experience with Porsche in this regard.

    They installed a brand new engine in my car after it 'blew' on the race track in Le Castellet last year. The car was almost 4 years old then, i.e., two years out of official warranty. All I had to pay was 25% of the labor cost and they installed a new clutch at the same time. Porsche knew where 'it' happened, and still....

    So I think 'Warranty' NO! 'Fair dealing' (Kulanz in German) YES

    Gregor

    Sep 20, 2004 5:12:50 PM

    Moogle
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    Moogle
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    Reply to: Gregor

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Gregor, i think that is an exception, not the rule

    you're very lucky

    Sep 21, 2004 12:41:57 AM

    Guykoken
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    Guykoken
    Loc: Toronto
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    The fact that warranty doesn't cover it is one point in favor of the plaintiffs' case. You see, the action won't be framed in contract( i.e., a suit to collect on the warranty), but in tort, the tort of deceit.Deceit can be defined thusly: Making a statement knowing it to be false or being reckless as to whether or not it is true or false, intending it to be relied upon, where the person to whom it is made relies upon it to his detriment. Each person who purchased a PCCBer intending to track it and believing Porsche's lies about the durability of the ceramic discs has a good cause of action against Porsche AG, and probably PCNA ,for deceit, and whether the car was purchased new or used.

    I need more plaintiffs! Let me hear from you.
    Richard A. Bain

    Sep 21, 2004 12:52:05 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Gregor

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    Gregor said:
    They installed a brand new engine in my car after it 'blew' on the race track in Le Castellet last year. The car was almost 4 years old then, i.e., two years out of official warranty. All I had to pay was 25% of the labor cost and they installed a new clutch at the same time. Porsche knew where 'it' happened, and still....

    So I think 'Warranty' NO! 'Fair dealing' (Kulanz in German) YES




    Porsche is pretty generous about warranty repairs if a problem occurs which they think has to do with a quality/production/supplier issue, even if the damage happened on the track.
    But if they think that the damage was caused by driving the car on the track, well, good-bye warranty.

    Sep 21, 2004 12:55:30 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: Paul Fanning

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    Paul Fanning said:
    Chevrolet will warrentee their cars even if problems occur on the track. I know this because a friend of mine threw a rod on the track in his Corvette Z06 and Chevrolet installed a new engine under warrentee fully aware of the fact that he was on the track when it occurred.

    Paul



    I told Gregor the same and I think it was the same case with Chevrolet: it the car manufactuer thinks that the problem wasn't caused by track racing itself, they still honor the warranty. I also know a guy with a GT3 who track raced the car and his gearbox broke down. Porsche paid for the repair and they knew the car has been on the track when it happened. It really depends from case to case but I suppose the brake is a different issue.

    Sep 21, 2004 2:10:41 PM

    watt
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    watt
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    Reply to: Scott in Houston

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    Scott in Houston said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    Ferrari covers track failures unlike Porsche. agree that no one would cover actual track racing



    Yeah.. for that whole year or 2!
    Ferrari's warranty is nuts.



    we each make a choice: 3 years with track coverage on new F's, 4 years' with no track coverage on P's. your life will dictate which is a better deal.

    as RC has said, P has been pretty mellow with old customers but the no track use is a new restriction. which is ok since few new P owners track their cayennes [just kidding guys]

    Sep 21, 2004 4:10:11 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Carlos, show me ONE SINGLE car manufacturer who provides a warranty for track racing. You're free to include manufacturers of real race cars like Porsche Motorsports, etc. Nobody gives you a warranty if you track race your car, not even for a real race car with improved and strenghtened parts for track racing.

    People who want to track race their car and don't want to loose the warranty have to join the official Porsche driver ed events. You can't seriously ask from a manufacturer to provide a warranty for a car which is used for track racing.
    You want to seriously track race your car? You're on your own.

    But I agree that in the past, there have been some "mistakes" made by Porsche. The first generation PCCB is one example, another example would be the M96/M97 engines oil distribution issue with slicks and the "body cracks issue with lowered coilover kits/lowering sprigns" on older 996/986.

    And maybe Porsche should also tell people that the Boxster is not intended for track racing, it has never been developped for this purpose. The 911 is a different story, especially the GT models.



    I find it disingenuous for Porsche to take the position it will not warrant their cars while in track use. The entire engineering and production of the vehicle is narrowly focused for performance on a track. They build the car with the Ring in mind not drag strips or US highway driving. Their driving school is at a track and furnishes Porsches' for use.You do not need to be a Porsche owner to participate. The intent is clearly to market and sell the car in a track venue.

    The brake issue is a classic example of misrepresenting the product. The facts are not in dispute. Porsche blew it with these brakes and they know. If it was a customer oriented company it would step up and tell its loyal enthusiast's we made a mistake and we will make you whole.

    RC have they fessed up to your Cayenne brake and hesitation problem?

    Unfortunately greed corrupts and Porsche management is corrupted when customer relations are in issue. Their motto should not be "there is no substitute" but "we take and do not give back".

    Sep 22, 2004 5:26:04 AM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Porsche doesn't approve track racing, no matter if PCCB or not, so track racing voids the warranty. Case closed.



    Not so fast Christian ... do you not recall our previous debate on this topic and specifically my comments regarding the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose?

    If Porsche marketed a product claiming that it would do something (in this case, work on the track) then the product will have to do what they say it will do. Often these warranties cannot be disclaimed.

    I suspect Richard has decided to frame his claim in terms of tort so as to avoid potential contract issues and to make the claim more universal but I don't think that the true basis of his claims is so far removed from these implied warranties. Basically, we're both saying that you cannot make a false claim about your product and then use warranty limitations to avoid liability for those false claims.

    Stephen

    Sep 22, 2004 5:29:17 AM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: Scott in Houston

    Warranty

    Quote:
    Scott in Houston said:
    Yeah.. for that whole year or 2!
    Ferrari's warranty is nuts.



    Well if you think Ferrari's two year warranty is nuts then I'm sure you will agree that Porsche's two year European warranty is also nuts? Only Porsche delivered in North America receive a four year warranty.

    Stephen

    Sep 23, 2004 12:56:40 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Warranty

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Well if you think Ferrari's two year warranty is nuts then I'm sure you will agree that Porsche's two year European warranty is also nuts? Only Porsche delivered in North America receive a four year warranty.

    Stephen



    Porsche's two year warranty was great as long as other manufacturers were providing a one year warranty only.
    But when the EC changed the warranty law and imposed a minimum two year warranty for all car manufacturers, I expected Porsche to take the challenge and offer a three year warranty instead. They didn't and I was pretty disappointed. But when I heard that US buyers get a four year warranty, I was pretty much surprised to hear that.

    Sep 23, 2004 1:53:56 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Warranty

    The North American four-year warranty is simply a matter of competitive pressure. Porsche really had no choice but to offer a four year warranty.

    Actually, the two-year warranty isn't that bad. At least it is unlimited mileage. I think a lot of people use up their warranties early in the USA. My warranty wouldn't have lasted much more than two-years in any case.

    Stephen

    Sep 23, 2004 7:34:33 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Porsche is pretty generous about warranty repairs if a problem occurs which they think has to do with a quality/production/supplier issue



    I disagree and I speak from personal experience. I depends on the country or Porsche importer. For example, in Germany they are very generous, in Spain and Portugal they are very cheap and ...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Carlos, show me ONE SINGLE car manufacturer who provides a warranty for track racing. You're free to include manufacturers of real race cars like Porsche Motorsports, etc. Nobody gives you a warranty if you track race your car, not even for a real race car with improved and strenghtened parts for track racing.



    Oh I agree RC, track voids warranty period and I think its completely fair, if its taken with a grain of salt of course: "failures due to track (not regular use) should be outside warranty".
    I was just mocking on the irony of how Porsche always has marketed its products for track use and uses it to sell cars but then it voids the warranty. I think they should not rely on it for marketing whe it voids warranty, just in the the track intended PCCB's...

    Sep 23, 2004 9:02:57 PM

    WCH
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Ferrari's warranty for the Stradale does not cover replacement or repair necessitated by, among other things, "racing and/or competitions." The warranty also assumes "normal vehicle use."

    I know that the PCCB issue has caused some owners great disappointment, distress and expense; however, I do not think Porsche sales language should overrule what I believe to be the universal assumption among those in the racing world that nothing is warranted for on track use. You may be seduced by fantasies of racing victories in your grocery getter, but IMO the truth is that a street car just will not stand up to any extended track use in stock form. I could not see suing Porsche for this.

    Sep 23, 2004 9:32:13 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: WCH

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    WCH said:
    IMO the truth is that a street car just will not stand up to any extended track use in stock form. I could not see suing Porsche for this.



    Fact is, that no race car will stand up to to any extended track use without the relevant highly stressed parts being replaced on a much more frequent basis than would be the case in normal road use.

    It's no secret that tracking a car is an expensive hobby, otherwise I'd also have a dedicated track-day car in my garage. Not very many of us are good enough drivers for car manufacturers to want to sponsor our hobbies, so we shouldn't be surprised if damage or wear resulting from track use is not covered by warranty.

    My 2 cents.

    Sep 23, 2004 10:21:48 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: WCH

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    I think you are understimating PCCB buyers' intelligence. I tend to think they kinda know about traking voiding warranty, but to my undertanding the problem they had is that Porsche claimed they were made for the track and offered a benefit to their non-warranty covered track use and lasted so and so miles, etc. Buyers paid dearly for them and turned out they were not only not what Porsche claimed at the track but also a very expensive misleading with pads not lasting a track weekend and changing very expensive priced cracked discs from Porsche every so often. So yes, track use is not covered, but after advertising something its not at the track (that is not from normal track wear) and actually inferior than the standard option, that part should be set right by Porsche IMO. If Porsched would of warned that they sucked for the track and would also run very very expensive for track use then there would be nothing to complain from PCCB buyers, just like complaining about warped steel rotors from track use.

    Sep 24, 2004 1:13:42 AM

    Scott in Houston
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Warranty

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    Scott in Houston said:
    Yeah.. for that whole year or 2!
    Ferrari's warranty is nuts.



    Well if you think Ferrari's two year warranty is nuts then I'm sure you will agree that Porsche's two year European warranty is also nuts? Only Porsche delivered in North America receive a four year warranty.

    Stephen



    That sucks for you guys.

    Yay pressure.

    Oct 13, 2004 12:51:15 AM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WCH said:
    IMO the truth is that a street car just will not stand up to any extended track use in stock form. I could not see suing Porsche for this.



    Fact is, that no race car will stand up to to any extended track use without the relevant highly stressed parts being replaced on a much more frequent basis than would be the case in normal road use.

    It's no secret that tracking a car is an expensive hobby, otherwise I'd also have a dedicated track-day car in my garage. Not very many of us are good enough drivers for car manufacturers to want to sponsor our hobbies, so we shouldn't be surprised if damage or wear resulting from track use is not covered by warranty.

    My 2 cents.



    Fact, the cars used at www.porschedriving.com strictly for track and with NO recognition of factory break in requirements are being sold used with the balance of full factory warranty. hmmm.

    Oct 18, 2004 11:06:28 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: I'm mad as hell and I'm going to do something about it

    Ben, the Porsche driving experience is not considered track racing, it is considered to be a driver education event with different stages. I also heard that the cars used in these events and which are sold later on are technically revised and put to a perfect condition before sold.
    And of course these are NOT racing cars.
    The old apples and oranges story...
     
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