Crown

which is exactly what I don't understand  - as much as I personally love a NA engine (having several GT3'RS) the turbo engine with it's early torque and these days where you can get any torque curve you want electronically programmed the next step logically for me would be to fill the early/mid-range power-gap and maybe add 20hp on top together with a active aero would make a big difference - 20hp on 520hp to me does nothing..... Latest NBR numbers surely come mainly from the tire side and not from the engine (next to a manthey suspension set up maybe)

BjoernB:

 Latest NBR numbers surely come mainly from the tire side and not from the engine (next to a manthey suspension set up maybe)

straight from tyres technology...they should drop a bit of rpm on the NA and work on the torque curve and job done.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

same car ranking No 2 and 17th - No 17th with Cup 2 .......

same with the Merc btw

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

the-missile:

...they should drop a bit of rpm on the NA and work on the torque curve and job done.

You cannot meaningfully add torque to an NA motor with the same displacement.  The torque in an NA motor is basically proportional to the displacement and is limited by the energy contained in gasoline (and its optimum mixture with air to burn with normal atmospheric pressure).  If you lower the revs, you will not increase torque (but you could decrease torque if you limit rpm too much).

The torque at the ground is largely a product of the torque of the engine and the gearing (which acts as a torque multiplier).  You want the redline to be as high as possible, so the gearing can in turn be as low as possible (and put maximum torque to the ground).  So, by "dropping a bit of rpm on the NA and work on the torque curve", the result will be worse torque at the wheels...

To get more torque at the wheels, the options are:

1.  Add forced induction (turbo and/or supercharger)

2.  Add alternative power source (electric)

3.  Increase displacement

4.  Make gearing lower (by adding more gears and/or raising maximum rpm)

--

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Does valve/ignition timing not have an effect on torque? 

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

DaveGordon:

Does valve/ignition timing not have an effect on torque? 

You can make it worse without good timing, but you cannot increase it much beyond what the current GT3 does.  Likewise, higher compression ratio will help.  But again GT3 is close to maximum here with current fuel quality and direct injection technology.

If Porsche focused exclusively on improving torque in the 4.0L NA motor to the detriment of some other factors, it could likely be improved by a few percent.  Nothing meaningful.  The RS makes slightly more torque than the GT3, but you'll never feel this (and is a result of slightly better ECU tune in the RS - where the 20hp and 7 ft-lbs comes from).

You could also slightly improve torque with better intake and exhaust breathing, but this is pretty close to max with current noise, emissions, and consumption limits.

When I talk about improving the torque of the 4.0, I guess I mean improving it beyond the RS (where the ECU does not purposely hold back performance by a couple percent).

--

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Great summary Grant and a reminder that for N/A the torque is simply a mathematical constant given displacement rpm and horsepower.  You can only move the torque by lowering the rpm where it makes horsepower and visa versa. Given same intake and exhaust like you said. I invite everyone to again n look at the GT3 gearing vs regular 911 to see the ratios massively multiplying torque like Grant showed. Same with real race cars. It is not just tires but also track specific gearing which removes magic seconds. 

Btw I never waivered off my prediction the next GT3 would be N/A. You can all agree that I was correct anytime. 

Sky agrees you were correct anytime

Thank you Sky. My own dachshund is also very smart and agrees with me 100% of the time. You can’t put a price of that. 

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

2018 White 911 GT3

Gauss:

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

Diesels are already banned from Apr 2019 in central London, 2021 outside London....petrol cars are still safe in the meantime.....No thanks to VW and the dieselgate scandal

Italo:

Gauss:

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

Diesels are already banned from Apr 2019 in central London, 2021 outside London....petrol cars are still safe in the meantime.....No thanks to VW and the dieselgate scandal

but not for as long as we might want... they are up next !

2018 White 911 GT3

Italo:

Gauss:

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

Diesels are already banned from Apr 2019 in central London, 2021 outside London....petrol cars are still safe in the meantime.....No thanks to VW and the dieselgate scandal

All Diesel cars? I kind of doubt it. New Euro 6d temp Diesel cars are coming, why should they be banned? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Gauss:

Italo:

Gauss:

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

Diesels are already banned from Apr 2019 in central London, 2021 outside London....petrol cars are still safe in the meantime.....No thanks to VW and the dieselgate scandal

but not for as long as we might want... they are up next !

There will be a time but it make take many years until they ban petrol cars from cities...same goes to Euro 6d temp Diesel cars, they will be around for a while in my opinion.

My next daily driver will be an EV maybe...in three years. Just to be safe to be able to drive to work, same goes to my wife. Fun car? Different story. No need to drive inside the city. 

I still think however that it may take over a decade or longer until we see some serious car bans (for new cars) in cities around Europe.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

RC:

Italo:

Gauss:

What worries me more is the fact that they might ban our cars from driving inside the cities in the upcoming years.

Diesels are already banned from Apr 2019 in central London, 2021 outside London....petrol cars are still safe in the meantime.....No thanks to VW and the dieselgate scandal

All Diesel cars? I kind of doubt it. New Euro 6d temp Diesel cars are coming, why should they be banned? 

it's only Euro V diesels and below that are affected.

older diesels can still be used but there is additional (to congestion charge of 11.50GBP) charge of 12.50GBP

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

Yep, it seems very likely that there will be a 992 GT3 with n/a engine. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

Yep, it seems very likely that there will be a 992 GT3 with n/a engine. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

this can be a good news

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

Yep, it seems very likely that there will be a 992 GT3 with n/a engine. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

this can be a good news

There will be a turbo-charged 992 RS.... it will be called the GT2 RS!

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

Yep, it seems very likely that there will be a 992 GT3 with n/a engine. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

this can be a good news

There will be a turbo-charged 992 RS.... it will be called the GT2 RS!

So, really the current one is the last N/A RS

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

Super Darius:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

Super Darius:

RC:

These engines will be used for the 992 as well, slightly modified, base stays the same. No sense to develop a completely new n/a engine for that purpose. 

so, there will be N/A engines on 992....

can we tell that there are no more emission issues,and all is solved?

What you mean by emission issues? 992 GT3 will have a particulate filter for the EU market, maybe for other markets as well. Nothing is "solved", the n/a engines will die a slow death but for now, it seems Porsche was able to keep the n/a engine in the GT3. For now. 

Yes,yes..i whant to mean that before seems impossible that on the 992 there will be again N/A engines..instead now seems they(Porsche) do it again...

Yep, it seems very likely that there will be a 992 GT3 with n/a engine. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

this can be a good news

There will be a turbo-charged 992 RS.... it will be called the GT2 RS!

So, really the current one is the last N/A RS

Of course...   I bet even Preuninger doesn't know yet.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

Porsche spreding rumors like this one is the best way for them to make sure they will sell plenty of  991.2 GT3 RS 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

RC:

. Not so sure about a GT3 RS though...this one could actually get a turbo charged engine. 

Porsche spreding rumors like this one is the best way for them to make sure they will sell plenty of  991.2 GT3 RS 

  This is not a rumor, right now they are evaluating future products. The 992 GT3 with n/a 4.0 l engine is a sure thing it seems but the RS version is a different story.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

 

  This is not a rumor, right now they are evaluating future products. The 992 GT3 with n/a 4.0 l engine is a sure thing it seems but the RS version is a different story.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Maybe this is the rumor . Just make it sound like they are undecided, but then they know already exactly .

We heard the same thing about the 992 GT3 and at the end , it is just as always . No surprise .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoq8gvV-go

.....Porsche 911(991.2) GT3: 1:18.91
McLaren 570S Track Pack: 1:19.51(+0.60s)

Gnil:

RC:

 

  This is not a rumor, right now they are evaluating future products. The 992 GT3 with n/a 4.0 l engine is a sure thing it seems but the RS version is a different story.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Maybe this is the rumor . Just make it sound like they are undecided, but then they know already exactly .

We heard the same thing about the 992 GT3 and at the end , it is just as always . No surprise .

Car development is happening constantly but the green light is given at a specific time and it is often later than many people actually think. Especially now, a lot of things are involved in the decision making process, so I wouldn't be surprised if six months later, they abort the 992 GT3 n/a.  (I doubt it though).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Car development is happening constantly but the green light is given at a specific time and it is often later than many people actually think. Especially now, a lot of things are involved in the decision making process, so I wouldn't be surprised if six months later, they abort the 992 GT3 n/a.  (I doubt it though).

Still..... even with that , there has been ZERO surprises , all is going forward as it has always been following the exact same patters . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

If anyone wants to have a close look at the wooden wing .... 

I like the rims 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS