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    Sep 6, 2004 4:53:33 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Ego

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Stephen I would agree with everthing you write except for one point. Porsche marketed this car to the public representing it as an every day car. It is not.




    That's a different issue entirely and it wouldn't be the first time PAG had misrepresented their products. You've surely read my comments on the PCCB's and how they were marketed to the public. If indeed they represent the CGT as an everyday car usable by the average driver then from what everyone is saying, that is obviously a misrepresentation.

    So what would be a proper resolution? Allowing customers to cancel their orders I would think. And PAG seems to be allowing this. This is a very different situation to the PCCB issue where a lot of customers got stuck with brakes that didn't do what they were supposed to and PAG did not want to remove them and refund money.

    Stephen

    Sep 6, 2004 5:55:06 PM

    ben, lj
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    Re: Ego

    Stephen, on point with the PCCB fiasco, the way the CGT clutch "must" be used would thrash a normal clutch much sooner than normal. I wonder if they got the ceramic clutch any better the first time than they did the brakes in terms of pre-mature wear especially given the extra wear it will be required to take? Then again, most super cars go through clutches like gasoline anyway.

    Sep 6, 2004 6:21:47 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: Ego

    From personal experience, the Enzo at around town speeds is considerably less noisy than the Saleen S7. Both Porsche and Ferrari may have tuned these cars to idle silently, as to not create too much attention when trying to slip out of a car park or wake your neighbors early on a Sunday morning.

    Sep 6, 2004 7:01:15 PM

    racerx
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: Ego

    show me an enzo in a "car park" outside of crystal cove.

    And i just remembered the story a while back about the enzo that drove thru NYC and had parts falling off of it. True story. That does not mean it is a POS.

    I hope RC carries thru and finds some CGT owners who have mastered their clutches and can drive without the rear-end twitching like a F 150.
    Tom

    Sep 6, 2004 7:11:48 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news



    Quote:


    Does your Ferrari growl even when not under acceleration? When it's coasting? Strange. That doesn't make sense unless it is engine braking in a lower gear. I don't know of any car that growls while it coasts in a high gear with zero throttle applied (back-firing doesn't count ). If it does, I would love to hear it in person.



    Yes it does under steady throttle. While doing a steady speed, whatever that may be, the growl is distinct and blissful. However I do have Tubi though I drove my 2001 without for awhile and the growl was there albeit not as loud.

    The CGT under steady speed does not. The CGT engine sound is orgasmic. I would not change it. However to hear and enjoy it the engine needs to be under acceleration.

    Sep 6, 2004 9:30:11 PM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: racerx

    Re: Ego

    Quote:
    racerx said:...without the rear-end twitching like a F 150.
    Tom



    Ah, so you've driven my 04 F150, eh :-) It is largely because of my first model year experience with the F150 (the number one selling car in the U.S. for decades - several hundred thousand 04 F150s made so far) together with Ford service (not to mention the new scratch or dent noticed each time I pick it up from there) that would keep me away from the otherwise bad ass Ford GT. Then again, I've probably got about as many bugs in my early 04 model TT Cay as in my early 04 model F150. For the most part though, Porsche actually tries to do something about it vs. Ford who just claims it's normal - if they even acknowledge the problem at all. One of these days I'll finally get it through my thick head that the "trend setters" can take the first model year and conduct manufacturer R&D.

    Sep 7, 2004 5:10:05 PM

    Porsche Fan
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    I have driven one and the clutch isn't that bad.. it's not so hard to get use to..but it takes a few times to get proficient at it. it is a great car....even if it is slower 0-300K's. I would take one over the comp 10-time our of 10.

    Eric

    Sep 7, 2004 6:51:37 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Porsche Fan

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    Porsche Fan said:
    it is a great car....even if it is slower 0-300K's.



    Unless I am very much mistaken, the figures quoted by RC at the head of this post are those measured by "auto, motor and sport" at the Nardo banked circuit in Italy.

    It's funny that nobody has queried the validity of 0 to 300 km/h figures measured on a banked circuit which does not have a long enough straight to carry out this measurement.

    Sep 7, 2004 10:17:36 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Porsche Fan said:
    it is a great car....even if it is slower 0-300K's.



    Unless I am very much mistaken, the figures quoted by RC at the head of this post are those measured by "auto, motor and sport" at the Nardo banked circuit in Italy.

    It's funny that nobody has queried the validity of 0 to 300 km/h figures measured on a banked circuit which does not have a long enough straight to carry out this measurement.



    Fritz the CGT has its attributes particularly around a sport track. However just about every test dealing with acceleration and straight line performance have shown the SLR and Enzo faster.

    In the real driving world, racing around the ring is as relevant as the color of paint on a car is to performance.

    Sep 8, 2004 4:22:07 PM

    HoboPie
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    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    I think the Ring is certainly a good place to compare overall performance, but it is Porsche's backyard and you would expect them to fare well there.

    The only thing I found odd about that test was the braking. I believe the CGT may outbrake the Enzo by a little, but that is a huge difference. My disbelief is compunded by the fact that the Murcielago also managed to outbrake the Enzo.

    I know the Murcielago is quite good at braking, but no test has really put it close to the Enzo even at slower speeds, and at higher speeds the much lower weight and aerodynamics of the Enzo should have easily put the Enzo ahead of the Murcielago.

    Sep 8, 2004 4:49:11 PM

    brunner
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In the real driving world, racing around the ring is as relevant as the color of paint on a car is to performance.


    Ok, so the car's performance (which is sampled by the ring time) is irrelevant. What's left then? Production numbers?

    Sep 8, 2004 5:36:12 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: HoboPie

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    HoboPie said:
    I think the Ring is certainly a good place to compare overall performance, but it is Porsche's backyard and you would expect them to fare well there.
    ...



    The SLR was also tested and developed on the Ring! The Enzo couldn't cover a whole flying lap because it's front would hit the pavement on several bumps and in the "Karussel"!

    The CGT is faster everytime racecar-attributes like low weight, high downforce etc. come into play. It might be slightly slower to 300 but do you really care? Which one of you ever drove that fast?

    Sep 8, 2004 10:04:37 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    HoboPie said:
    I think the Ring is certainly a good place to compare overall performance, but it is Porsche's backyard and you would expect them to fare well there.
    ...



    The SLR was also tested and developed on the Ring! The Enzo couldn't cover a whole flying lap because it's front would hit the pavement on several bumps and in the "Karussel"!

    The CGT is faster everytime racecar-attributes like low weight, high downforce etc. come into play. It might be slightly slower to 300 but do you really care? Which one of you ever drove that fast?



    After driving the CGT I am fairly certain it will out perform any non modified production car on a sport track including the ring.

    However the ring is not real world driving. On streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for. The Enzo and SLR are better suited for the public roads. The CGT is better suited for track work and not particularly well suited for public roads.

    My understanding is Porsche recently has had an epiphany and will do something about the ride quality, the clutch and ride height. Once they make the adjustments then of course it will lose its track advantage and what the CGT was designed for. Porsche tried to have it both ways and failed

    Sep 9, 2004 1:22:00 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: nberry

    Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    However the ring is not real world driving. On streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for.



    Hahahaha ... no Nick, the Nürburgring is not "real world driving" ... where you come from. But it is a wonderful example of some of the driving which might be found in Europe.

    Oh, and I really love it when you say "[o]n streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for." Now what exactly do you think goes on at the Nürburgring?

    Short spurts of acceleration on European highways? Well that's only because after a while the car tops out..

    Really Nick, that's the silliest comment I've seen you make in ages. Edit it quick!!



    Stephen

    Sep 9, 2004 1:35:58 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    ...However the ring is not real world driving. On streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for. The Enzo and SLR are better suited for the public roads. The CGT is better suited for track work and not particularly well suited for public roads.

    My understanding is Porsche recently has had an epiphany and will do something about the ride quality, the clutch and ride height. Once they make the adjustments then of course it will lose its track advantage and what the CGT was designed for. Porsche tried to have it both ways and failed



    Nick, I am sorry but this is not quite exact. The Ring's topography resembles the public streets found all over the world, including California!
    The width, bumps, length of the straights, tarmac and also the character of the turns with in- or decreasing radii, possibly banked, all have much more in common to the streets you find in front of the Ring than a clinical-looking circuit for F1 racing! That's one reason why cars that might perform well on the Hockenheimring might not be as good in the Eifel! You probably know the Audi R8 of the ALMS which did some demoruns on the Ring this year - it wouldn't be able to drive with the same setup used on any other circuit. Same goes for the Opel Astra DTM, which uses a completely different suspension setup than on ALL other tracks - even Stryzek and his engineers were surprised which setup turned out to be the most appropriate one!

    I do not think that Porsche should do anything regarding ride quality. Modifying the clutch wouldn't effect its track capabilities, by the way!

    Regarding the ride height they might install a kit to raise the car but what I would even appreciate more would be an active lift function that raises the car below 50kph / 35 mph! Mr. Kußmaul and colleagues, think about that idea! Though I believe you have already done so...

    Greetings!

    Sep 9, 2004 2:29:00 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    The Enzo couldn't cover a whole flying lap because it's front would hit the pavement on several bumps and in the "Karussel"!




    How do you know this, Ferdie?

    Sep 9, 2004 2:54:13 PM

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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    However the ring is not real world driving. On streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for.



    Hahahaha ... no Nick, the Nürburgring is not "real world driving" ... where you come from. But it is a wonderful example of some of the driving which might be found in Europe.

    Oh, and I really love it when you say "[o]n streets and highways, short spurts of acceleration with a few seconds of turning is all you can hope for." Now what exactly do you think goes on at the Nürburgring?

    Short spurts of acceleration on European highways? Well that's only because after a while the car tops out..

    Really Nick, that's the silliest comment I've seen you make in ages. Edit it quick!!



    Stephen



    You guys know EXACTLY what I mean! Where do you get 8 minutes of high speed twists and turns without slow non competitive traffic and police monitoring in any setting other then a ring which is a sport track? The only place in the US or anywhere else in the world is sanctioned tracks.

    Ferdie your right about the clutch and performance. I was referring to useability on normal streets which a production car usually is designed for.

    Sep 9, 2004 4:58:58 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Nick,

    I could imagine that clutch linkage and the "byte" of the clutch material can be altered to a certain extend and improve drivability.
    If PAG realizes how many people, and I suspect there are a lot of U.S. buyers amongst that, cancel their order due to that issue mainly they will come up with something! Still I have to say that attitude of drivers regarding effort and enthusiasm has changed over the last 20 years! It's nothing bad but I could imagine that a lot of people used to automatic gearboxes have difficulties to get used to a tricky clutch. Just for comparison I am driving manual cars since 9 years now and had a LOT of training on various cars. This is definately different to someone learning manuals on one particular car after driving automatics before and then switching to the CGT.
    Please don't get me wrong on that issue - it just shows to me that the CGT is a car dedicated to enthusiasts and I doubt that there are much more than one thousand of them with the required cash!

    As a little sidenote the Porsche 959 back in the 80ies was very civil to drive with a lot of (documented) understeer on the track. Being compared to the F40 in Fiorano (yes, on Ferrari's hometurf) it was much slower than the Italian rival but much easier to control...
    Did anybody complain back then about the Ferrari's challenging drive?

    The Nürburgring time just shows what a car is capable of, just like putting your car into a monsoon-like rainfall in a climate box proves that no water gets inside - this doesn't mean it has to rain that much and you're still glad to have a dry cabin... Okay?

    Sep 9, 2004 4:59:07 PM

    MKW
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Micheal Schumacher probably would't be able to exploit all the potential of a stock Toyota Corolla in real roads with real everyday traffic unknowns before crashing into someone or ending up in jail. Every car, street or race is hampered in some way in each venue it rolls on. Ultimately, comparos make fun reading and spirited bench racing .

    Sep 9, 2004 5:28:05 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:


    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Nick,

    I could imagine that clutch linkage and the "byte" of the clutch material can be altered to a certain extend and improve drivability.
    If PAG realizes how many people, and I suspect there are a lot of U.S. buyers amongst that, cancel their order due to that issue mainly they will come up with something! Still I have to say that attitude of drivers regarding effort and enthusiasm has changed over the last 20 years! It's nothing bad but I could imagine that a lot of people used to automatic gearboxes have difficulties to get used to a tricky clutch. Just for comparison I am driving manual cars since 9 years now and had a LOT of training on various cars. This is definately different to someone learning manuals on one particular car after driving automatics before and then switching to the CGT.
    Please don't get me wrong on that issue - it just shows to me that the CGT is a car dedicated to enthusiasts and I doubt that there are much more than one thousand of them with the required cash!
    Quote:




    I suspect many purchasers of the CGT are serious sport car enthusiast.However, as I pointed out in my review of the CGT it has to be fun to drive. The CGT is a very serious performance car with little room for error. It is not fun to drive ( at least for me) unless your on a sanctioned track with liberal bail out areas.



    Quote:


    The Nürburgring time just shows what a car is capable of, just like putting your car into a monsoon-like rainfall in a climate box proves that no water gets inside - this doesn't mean it has to rain that much and you're still glad to have a dry cabin... Okay?

    Quote:




    I agree. It is an excellent venue to assess the performance ability of a car in most but not all categories. Porsche builds its cars primarily for the Ring.

    Sep 9, 2004 6:26:16 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Ferdie, that's good assessment of the Nordschleife, but perhaps too much emphasis is put into the lap time a car turns. A comparison of two cars using their ring times in absolute terms is not a good metric for the kind of driving to be found in Southern California. Does the ring not have the longest straight of any track in the world? It has some very high speed turns which are also hard to replicate here. Truely unique!

    It may be important then, to look at performance in specific sectors, to make your own metrics. Good performers on the ring seem to translate well to certain real world driving situations, but it's a one way street.

    Sep 9, 2004 7:09:20 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Justin,

    I definately get your opinion. Of course the absolute laptime doesn't count too much. Especially if you see the SL55 performing remarkably well, its weight will hurt consistent laptimes and will also put a LOT of stress on the whole car!
    I see the Nürburgring as the most appropriate combination of features that you will find anywhere in the world, of course a few of them might be excluded in certain places. Anyways, achieving the above mentioned laptime demands a very good overall car. Therefore not only the topspeed has to be high, you also have to access it, it has to be stable in the mentioned high-speed turns and especially the braking performance has to be superior! None of these features are irrelevant in daily use, since you want to have good brakes, a safe handling and if you buy a sportscar you also want proper power delivery! Right?

    Nick, since I haven't driven the CGT I can't say anything about it's driving feel. So my comments don't help anything in this aspect and we have to rely partially on your opinion!

    Anyways, I repeat my words. The very first 911 RS (2.7) was very tricky but rewarding to handle. There were quite a lot of people who weren't able to get along with the car. Today the CGT has a similiar character but people are not prepared to appreciate it. Maybe the performance difference to Enzo and SLR (and GT40 etc.) is not high enough to justify its demanding character?

    Maverick,
    I recall a test, I believe it was in AMS or SportAuto, who tried to do a comparison of CGT, SLR and Enzo. This is the fact I remember the most since I was very anxious to know the Ferrari's laptime!
    Ferrari is much more strict with their test cars and the above mentioned comparison of F40 and 959 was quite a unique experience to the crowd!

    Sep 9, 2004 7:21:12 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Does the ring not have the longest straight of any track in the world?



    Justin, I think you might have had the Mulsanne Straight in Le Mans in mind?

    Sep 9, 2004 7:30:41 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You guys know EXACTLY what I mean! Where do you get 8 minutes of high speed twists and turns without slow non competitive traffic and police monitoring in any setting other then a ring which is a sport track? The only place in the US or anywhere else in the world is sanctioned tracks.



    I really have found these sorts of conditions on the street Nick. They might be rare but they are out there. Maybe the last such memory I have was driving on the highway ringing Sicily and outbraking a cop into a corner? But also drives through the Alps. Drives in northern Greece. Drives through the mountains on the way from Bangkok to Phuket. Drives on the southern island of New Zealand. All bring a smile to my face.

    There are such memorable occasions on the street. That I didn't go quite as fast came down to my not knowing the road as well as I know the Ring and my having to drive for hour after hour so needing to conserve mental energy.



    Stephen

    Sep 9, 2004 7:57:13 PM

    fritz
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    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Fritz the CGT has its attributes particularly around a sport track. However just about every test dealing with acceleration and straight line performance have shown the SLR and Enzo faster.

    In the real driving world, racing around the ring is as relevant as the color of paint on a car is to performance.



    Hmmm, from memory I'm not aware of Ferrari having provided an Enzo for tests involving measurement of performance figures by neutral parties on too many occasions. Most of the test reports seem to rely on the manufacturer's figures. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the tests you are referring to?
    As far as your assessment of the relevance of the Nürburgring to the real world is concerned, fact is that a large number of the world's car manufacturers, including Japanese and Korean brands and (even Land Rover!) use the Ring to test and develop the handling of their cars, including sedans and SUV's, because it is the best location they know for testing handling and dynamics under very varied conditions.
    We are obviously not talking about ultra-high-performance super-sports cars in most of these instances.
    Despite having been a Grand Prix circuit in the distant past, the northern loop of the N'ring has very little similarity to the modern billiard-table smooth GP circuits (including the N'ring GP circuit, which is tacked on to the northern loop), which generally really would not have very much relevance to road driving conditions.

    Sep 9, 2004 8:10:39 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Justin, I think you might have had the Mulsanne Straight in Le Mans in mind?



    Hi Fritz,
    I was referring to Dittinger Hohe. I believe that's the one, but I'm not sure. Maybe I heard a false statistic on it?

    Doesn't road racing seem more exciting than what F1 is giving us at the moment? Maybe this element is why FIA WRC has caught my interest!

    Sep 9, 2004 8:11:50 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Despite having been a Grand Prix circuit in the distant past, the northern loop of the N'ring has very little similarity to the modern billiard-table smooth GP circuits (including the N'ring GP circuit, which is tacked on to the northern loop), which generally really would not have very much relevance to road driving conditions.




    This is why a lot of amateur track drivers from around the world come to the Nordschleife and think this is just another race track. After they crash their car, they go back home with a pretty bad taste on their tongue.
    I'm not aware of any race track worldwide where so many amateur drivers die or get hurt seriously in accidents every year like on the Nordschleife. And we're NOT talking about serious professional racing, just fun driving!!!

    I have my own "classification":
    Drivers who do the Nordschleife in a 996 GT3/Turbo/GT2 below 9 minutes are good drivers.
    Drivers who do the Nordschleife below 8 min. 30 seconds are very good drivers.
    Drivers who do the Nordschleife below 8 minutes are professional drivers.
    When driving on the Nordschleife for the first time, put your Ego back in your pocket and start to learn. A lot of enthusiastic drivers returned with a crashed car.
    The Nordschleife is different from any other track in the world...because it actually isn't a real track but a public street. Go there and you'll understand, guys.

    Sep 9, 2004 8:23:26 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Hi RC,
    I get similar feedback from friends who have taken the voyage and done a few laps. They always tell me to take it easy and it helps to have an experienced ringer in the passenger seat your first drive out too.

    I think if something like that existed in the U.S., the abundance of irresponsible drivers would force the bureaucracy to close it down or set a speed limit very quickly. Only in Germany I guess. How long do you think it will last?

    Sep 9, 2004 8:34:37 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Fritz the CGT has its attributes particularly around a sport track. However just about every test dealing with acceleration and straight line performance have shown the SLR and Enzo faster.

    In the real driving world, racing around the ring is as relevant as the color of paint on a car is to performance.



    Quote:


    Hmmm, from memory I'm not aware of Ferrari having provided an Enzo for tests involving measurement of performance figures by neutral parties on too many occasions. Most of the test reports seem to rely on the manufacturer's figures. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the tests you are referring to?



    The most recent issue of Motor Trend may illuminate you. A number of magazines including R&T, Car & Driver and so on have established without dispute that the CGT is the laggard in acceleration tests involving the Enzo and SLR. On the other hand they also established the CGT the marginally better car in braking and shalom times.

    Why don't you provide us with acceleration tests that prove the CGT faster than the SLR and Enzo.

    Sep 9, 2004 8:41:04 PM

    nberry Offline
    Rennteam VIP
    nberry
    Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States
    Posts: 13737, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 11, 2002
    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Nürburgring is not real world driving...

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You guys know EXACTLY what I mean! Where do you get 8 minutes of high speed twists and turns without slow non competitive traffic and police monitoring in any setting other then a ring which is a sport track? The only place in the US or anywhere else in the world is sanctioned tracks.



    I really have found these sorts of conditions on the street Nick. They might be rare but they are out there. Maybe the last such memory I have was driving on the highway ringing Sicily and outbraking a cop into a corner? But also drives through the Alps. Drives in northern Greece. Drives through the mountains on the way from Bangkok to Phuket. Drives on the southern island of New Zealand. All bring a smile to my face.

    There are such memorable occasions on the street. That I didn't go quite as fast came down to my not knowing the road as well as I know the Ring and my having to drive for hour after hour so needing to conserve mental energy.



    Stephen



    Those are great road memories which I envy. Though I have driven the Alps several times it has been spent in a sedan or SUV. I am not sure I would have the "balls" to to do spirited driving in those venues. My eyes would be distracted by the magnificent scenery.
     
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