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    Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Comparison test with Ferrari Enzo and Mercedes SLR.

    Good news first:

    Handling Performance (1600 m track) Carrera GT 53,86 sec., Ferrari Enzo 54,98 sec. and Mercedes SLR 57,45 sec..

    Braking Performance (from 250 kph to 0 kph): Carrera GT 191 m, Ferrari Enzo 215 m and Mercedes SLR 221 m.

    So we have a clear winner regarding handling and braking: the Carrera GT.

    The bad news:

    Acceleration from 0-250 kph: Carrera GT 17,5 sec., Ferrari Enzo 16,1 sec. and Mercedes SLR 17,2 sec..
    Acceleration from 0-300 kph: Carrera GT 34,2 sec., Ferrari Enzo 26,1 sec. and Mercedes SLR 30,6 sec..

    From 0-300 kph, the Carrera GT is more than 8 seconds slower than the Ferrari Enzo, quite a disappointment.
    And even the Mercedes SLR is 3,6 seconds faster from 0-300 kph than the Carrera GT.

    Why? Well, maybe downforce setup is too high or the 6th gear too long, the gear ratio maybe too long too, I really don't know.
    I know only one thing: Porsche does a great job regarding suspension/handling setups and I'd even say that there is no manufacturer worldwide who does such a good job with their cars. But Porsche also has to understand that not only suspension setups and weight are important but power too. They can't afford building excellent sportscars which are the fastest in twists and turns but fail to keep up with high power limousines on the Autobahn. Just an example.

    Carrera GT owners shouldn't be disappointed, the chance to meet a Ferrari Enzo on the Autobahn is almost Zero. And I suppose most Mercedes SLR owners would drive at very high speeds only if the Autobahn is completely straight.

    And a last word regarding the "difficult" clutch on the Carrera GT: it is a feature, there is nothing wrong with it. As a professional testdriver said: this clutch is very nasty and it is only something for pros, not beginners. So maybe Carrera GT owners should consider the clutch like a test, if they're "ready" for the Carrera GT or not.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Until you drive one RC, I wouldn't be critical about people's driving ability. I suspect if you were to drive the car (especially in the city or in traffic), you would quickly have to define yourself a "beginner" according to the above. It's GREAT for the track since once your off, it's perfect. However, in the real world, you're gonna spend a lot of time stopping and going where it sucks badly.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Until you drive one RC, I wouldn't be critical about people's driving ability. I suspect if you were to drive the car (especially in the city or in traffic), you would quickly have to define yourself a "beginner" according to the above. It's GREAT for the track since once your off, it's perfect. However, in the real world, you're gonna spend a lot of time stopping and going where it sucks badly.



    I don't know if I mentioned it before but I had the chance to drive a Carrera GT on a parking lot, especially because I wanted to experience the clutch myself.
    The car had no license plates, this is why I couldn't drive it more, it was a once-in-a-lifetime occasion because Porsche really is careful now to whom they give a press car due to bad experience in the past. I'm sure we could get a Carrera GT with some luck (and some interventions... ) but I have to admit that I'm somehow hesitating to drive such an expensive car on the track for testing, especially since it always needs a few hours until you really get used to such a car.

    To get back to the clutch: yes, it isn't easy but you get adapted to it very fast. I had no problems after trying a few times and only at the beginning, the engine stalled ONCE. Stop'n go in a Carrera GT might not be fun but have you tried a GT3 MkII or GT2 MkII? No fun either, especially because of the force you need to press the clutch.
    Maybe I could give you another example (and this doesn't have to do with driver skills but driver "sensibility"): I can move my 997 Carrera S from standstill with less than 1000-1200 rpm. My wife can't do it without stalling the engine or using at least 2500 rpm. And a good friend who has the international C license and sometimes drives in his old modified M3 E36 on the track stalls my 997 if he uses less than 2000 rpm.
    Some people are more "nervous", some people are calm and have a less nervous throttle and clutch foot.
    Of course "nervous" drivers are sometimes less "fortunate" compared to "calm" drivers because they do more driving mistakes. Especially on the track you can analyze people pretty well and their driving style also says a lot about their psychological profile.
    A good driver not only knows has goo driving skills but also knows his limitations. A good driver also tries to stay calm and analyzes driving situations like a computer with his brain, not his stomach. But of course there are also passionate drivers who drive very good but usually these drivers are also those with the most accidents, crashes, etc.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The bad news:

    From 0-300 kph, the Carrera GT is more than 8 seconds slower than the Ferrari Enzo, quite a disappointment.
    And even the Mercedes SLR is 3,6 seconds faster from 0-300 kph than the Carrera GT.

    I know only one thing: Porsche does a great job regarding suspension/handling setups and...




    It's a tradeoff. CGT owners/fans and Enzo owners/fans will each have to accept that their favorite car is not the king of every performance category. To see what they are missing, they can swap cars when they get together for a drive.


    Quote:
    RC said:
    Why? Well, maybe downforce setup is too high or the 6th gear too long, the gear ratio maybe too long too, I really don't know.



    I doubt the coefficient of drag (Cd) makes a significant difference between the acceleration times to 300 kph but it does contribute. Here are the numbers:

    CGT = 0.39
    Enzo = 0.36 (same as 360 spider, Testarossa, F50 w/ roof)
    SLR = 0.37 ("increased from the concept SLR's 0.29. Gordon Murray sacrificed drag for downforce and cooling. To allow the adoption of flat underbody and diffusers, Murray had to ask AMG to develop a side exhaust system." http://autozine.kyul.net/html/Mercedes6.htm )

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Yes, if you obsessively concentrate each and every time you take off from a stop, I'd think with practice one could take off without stalling the vast majority of the time via feathering (the "let the clutch completely out and then engage throttle" trick is horsecrap and works much less often than just feathering it). However, this need to put 100% concentration into the act of letting the clutch out makes it a more "drive every once in a while" kind of car on the street IMO. Speedbumps are a real thrill too. The car is so low you must pretty much come to a complete stop for even the lowest of speed bumps. Then you must go REAL slow over the speed bump (like barely moving). Try that with this tricky on/off clutch without stalling. Yuk! Then of course there is the hill take off - not too many of those in parking lot demos. Then once you've mastered that, do it with traffic behind you! Yuk again. If you stall it in that situation, you may in fact roll back so close to the car behind you that you don't get a 2nd try because you are likely to hit the car behind you on that try.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Hey ben just wind it out and lay a patch everytime you start off!
    Tom

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    RC said:
    My wife can't do it without stalling the engine or using at least 2500 rpm.



    I cringe every time I have to sit next to a driver that does this.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    A good driver also tries to stay calm and analyzes driving situations like a computer with his brain, not his stomach.



    How does a good driver make the queasy stomach feeling go away completely when driving close to or at the limit? I get this feeling sometimes for a brief second on wet public roads. And don't say "slow down."

    Quote:
    RC said:
    But of course there are also passionate drivers who drive very good but usually these drivers are also those with the most accidents, crashes, etc.



    Those damn Italian drivers. And Montoya.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Yes, if you obsessively concentrate each and every time you take off from a stop, I'd think with practice one could take off without stalling the vast majority of the time via feathering (the "let the clutch completely out and then engage throttle" trick is horsecrap and works much less often than just feathering it). However, this need to put 100% concentration into the act of letting the clutch out makes it a more "drive every once in a while" kind of car on the street IMO. Speedbumps are a real thrill too. The car is so low you must pretty much come to a complete stop for even the lowest of speed bumps. Then you must go REAL slow over the speed bump (like barely moving). Try that with this tricky on/off clutch without stalling. Yuk! Then of course there is the hill take off - not too many of those in parking lot demos. Then once you've mastered that, do it with traffic behind you! Yuk again. If you stall it in that situation, you may in fact roll back so close to the car behind you that you don't get a 2nd try because you are likely to hit the car behind you on that try.



    Ben, have you gotten your CGT? Your experiences sound like those of LarryB (and several other CGT owners)...

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Speedbumps are a real thrill too. The car is so low you must pretty much come to a complete stop for even the lowest of speed bumps. Then you must go REAL slow over the speed bump (like barely moving). Try that with this tricky on/off clutch without stalling. Yuk! Then of course there is the hill take off - not too many of those in parking lot demos. Then once you've mastered that, do it with traffic behind you! Yuk again. If you stall it in that situation, you may in fact roll back so close to the car behind you that you don't get a 2nd try because you are likely to hit the car behind you on that try.



    Ben, I think you just described life with the CGT during the first 365 days of daily-driver seat time. After that, the driver who uses the car daily would slightly increase speed over bumps and not bother so much about scraping the front spoiler since it would have become a way of life. The owner would have the option of replacing the $450 spoiler a couple of times a year.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Yes, if you obsessively concentrate each and every time you take off from a stop, I'd think with practice one could take off without stalling the vast majority of the time via feathering (the "let the clutch completely out and then engage throttle" trick is horsecrap and works much less often than just feathering it). However, this need to put 100% concentration into the act of letting the clutch out makes it a more "drive every once in a while" kind of car on the street IMO. Speedbumps are a real thrill too. The car is so low you must pretty much come to a complete stop for even the lowest of speed bumps. Then you must go REAL slow over the speed bump (like barely moving). Try that with this tricky on/off clutch without stalling. Yuk! Then of course there is the hill take off - not too many of those in parking lot demos. Then once you've mastered that, do it with traffic behind you! Yuk again. If you stall it in that situation, you may in fact roll back so close to the car behind you that you don't get a 2nd try because you are likely to hit the car behind you on that try.



    Ben, have you gotten your CGT? Your experiences sound like those of LarryB (and several other CGT owners)...



    No but I spent and hour or two driving one last Monday both in town and through the twisties.

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15117

    As a result, I'm in the process of cancelling my order and bought a Stradale instead. I'll really miss the open air experience but hopefully I can make it until the F430 Spider comes out. I'll also miss doing my own heel/toe driving instead of having the F1 do it for me, but so far no one has made the be all open air car for the U.S.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    "I think you just described life with the CGT during the first 365 days of daily-driver seat time. After that, the driver who uses the car daily would slightly increase speed over bumps and not bother so much about scraping the front spoiler since it would have become a way of life."

    It's not just the spoiler (Larry is on his 2nd in 4 months) that scrapes.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Ben, thanks for the insightful writeup . I had the misguided impression that an F1 tranny and height adjustment would make CGT the ultimate twisties convertible...sounds like it's a pure (and great) track car.

    Great choice on CS...it's a phenomenal car. Perhaps 430 Spider w/racing exhaust will solve your open-air needs and offer stronger torque....let's just hope the rumored 133lb weight gain of 430 proves to be misinformation

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    It's not just the spoiler (Larry is on his 2nd in 4 months) that scrapes.



    Ben,
    I just read the 6speedonline link you provided. Thanks.

    A couple of questions:

    1) Since Porsche's suggested clutch procedure has failed for both Nick and you repeatedly, what method did you use to engage the clutch without stalling?

    2) Did you inspect the underside of the car? When the car slightly bottoms out, what kind of damage occurs? Does the CRP (carbon fiber reinforced plastic) panel merely scrape or does it tear? Scraping is minor. Tearing is major not only in dollars but, more importantly, for high-speed aerodynamics.

    3) You said, "unfortunately one of my primary methods of enjoyment for this car would be moutain roads in a very aggressive manner. i didn't feel there would be much enjoyment at all with this car as it takes 100% of your concentration 100% of the time in that situation (and i wasn't pushing it remotely close to as hard as i push my 911 in the corners). i just did not at all have the confidence in the corners."

    Let me relate a story. A friend of mine and I have little experience with rear-wheel drive, non-stability control, non-traction control cars. This past spring, he and I drove, for the first time, a 2000 S2000 (240 bhp vs. 605 bhp) for over an hour on dry city and backroads. We knew of the car's penchant for sudden oversteer and we definitely had to have 100% concentration while engaging VTEC on the bumpy, twisty backroads. The rear would step out even between 4000-6000 rpm given the right kind of curve. The only saving factor was that when the rear came out, one could easily correct it perfectly IF one was driving with 100% concentration. Had I not read other people's driving impressions of this little car, I would have been frightened and surprised driving at 80-90% concentration and the rear unexpectedly came out. We, too, tried the car with the convertible top up and down, down being the favorite. Each of us drove with 100% concentration (and 10-20% fear) and corrected the car each time the rear came out that we were in a state of euphoria for a week after the drive. We babbled on like devout followers each time someone asked us how the car was. Then, the nasty withdrawal symptoms set in. Never before had a car demanded so much from us as amateur drivers and never before had we put in so much effort and been so justly rewarded. The amount of concentration, confidence and fear the car demanded from us when driving at 7-9 tenths was new to us, and the reward of a racing-experience-for-the-street that it gave back was highly appreciated. I can only imagine how amplified your test-drive was compared to ours especially since nobody, journalists or owners, has described in detail what it is like or how to drive it on American twisties.

    As a result, my third question is did the CGT demand so much concentration from you and was so much on the knife-edge (due to the combination of clutch, engine responsiveness, chassis/body stiffness, suspension calibration, and rear sway bar probably set to full hard setting) that you were tired and, more importantly, overwhelmed after the test-drive? If so, you're not alone. When people first drove the 1st generation Dodge Viper in the 90's, they were overwhelmed by the sledgehammer experience, the bluntness that ends up tiring the average driver after a short drive. In contrast, modern Porsche's are known as scalpels, albeit user-friendly, refined scalpels. In stark contrast, the CGT is a user-unfriendly scalpel with a sharpness never before seen on a street Porsche. It commands respect. It demands utmost concentration as you have learned. It encourages practice day after day. And it overwhelms you with its sharpness as it sits at the opposite end of the driving experience scale from the Viper. The CGT promises if you put in the effort, it will deliver the confidence you seek.

    If so, Porsche has done its job with taming the beast to some degree. Remember that when the members of the Porsche executive board wanted to drive the car during the latter stages of development, Walter Rohrl refused to grant them permission. He needed to tame the car even further and install a traction control. It's the same case for the Enzo. Michael Schumacher has warned Enzo drivers NEVER to turn off the ASR (Ferrari traction control) unless they have the reflexes and experience of an F1 driver. It is too easy to lose control.

    If the CGT was as easy and compliant as you describe the 360 Stradale, people would be wondering how this is supposedly a Le Mans racer for the street. Potential supercar customers these days are more discerning. They want better numbers, better laptimes, and a purer driving experience without resorting to the impracticalities of a race car.

    Perhaps Porsche has gone too far and should have set up the CGT to be as easy to drive as the Zonda. But if they did, they would be giving their customers a less than perfect compromise and a less than pure driving experience. Porsche customers are not easy to please. You know that. They demand the best without substitute. They want the perfect compromise between a track car and a street car. So Porsche has delivered such a compromise with the best technology to date at a reasonable price. All it asks is that you put in the effort as a driver.

    You have said you want to drive primarily on mountain roads and have fun doing it in the best roadster heel'n'toeing all the while. Fine. Here's a supercar delivering everything you could possibly desire. Yet, you drove it probably on its track setting, completely the wrong setup for the road. This particular setting is so extreme that the Stig, an ex-F1 driver, spun the car multiple times before getting the hang of it. I'll bet he was just as surprised as you that a street Porsche demanded more concentration and a better technique from him of all people. Why not take advantage of this selfless friend of yours, adjust the rear sways to full soft and try it again on the same roads and see if you have a change of heart. If the car is still too edgy, still just as wrong for mountain roads, and you, as an individual, refuse to spend the required concentration to drive it and have fun, I encourage you to cancel the order and buy the Stradale immediately. But if you cancel the CGT before trying it out on its full-soft street setting, which nobody seems to have done so far, you just may regret it in the future. And don't forget the car is available with a 3/4 inch higher clearance which may or may not help with the bottoming out. Decisions like this should not be made until every possibility has been exhausted. Do it for yourself. Do it for the Rennteam.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Ben, why a CS rather than a GT2? Seems like GT2 has real torque and has the traditional manual tranny....

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Hey Maverick.

    The best method to get going was to feather the throttle.

    No, I didn't look under the car to inspect. Given the ride height, that would be an impossible task anyway.

    No, the concentration required didn't tire me but more scared me as I felt the possibility of a serious accident doing my usual mountain driving was high if even a small mistake were to occur. "Putting forth the effort" I'm afraid would by necessity require some screwing up (or at least learning usually does for me) and as you can see from the Stig video, etc, it will "bite your head off" as Clarkson remarked if you do make a mistake. That sort of biting wouldn't bother me at all at the track with proper run off areas. It would be an entirely different "learning experience" on a mountain road.

    The CGT is a FANTASTIC car, but I was really hoping it would serve all my pleasure/sport car needs whereas what it really does is meet a track need. The car would be an utter PIA for a casual drive around town or along the coast. Entering many driveways for say even a Starbucks while out shooting the breeze would be a chore. The only other time I found it to meet my needs (and the test drive was very thorough over many miles, speeds, grades, traffic, etc) was simply cruising on the highway with the top off. That's just too much money for me to justify spending for a highway cruiser when there are so many others that are just as satisfying in that setting.

    When I said the Stradale was compliant, I meant it rode amazingly well both when pushed and when not. That doesn't mean in any way that the car wasn't extremely communicative - which is was. It is to date the best balanced car I've ever driven - in so many ways. I bought the car late last week and will be taking delivery soon.

    My friend is having his CGT bars set softer and will have the height raised if the 3/4" kit ever actually makes it here. Additionally, Porsche has talked about making some ECU changes to help correct the clutch problem. Once these things are all complete on his car, and if he hasn't sold it, I would love to drive it again to see if my mind is changed. The second drive will be his decision though, not mine. If that's the case and I do change my mind, I suspect there will be ample CGT's available on the market at MSRP or better to choose from for immediate delivery as there is today.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Ben, why a CS rather than a GT2? Seems like GT2 has real torque and has the traditional manual tranny....



    I've driven a GT2 (on the track in Leipzig even), and thought it a great car. However, it's way too boring to make up for the open top sensations lost in a coupe. If I was going to go to a coupe, it had to be so exciting that it's sensory imputs made up for those lost from the lack of open air. Additionally, I don't really care for turbo charged cars and their on/off power surges. Lastly, high reving NA motors are really starting to grow on me.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    I had promised myself I would not post here again because of the repeated personal attacks but I feel it is necessary regarding this subject.

    I have driven with Hurley Haywood, Dave Murry and other terrific drivers.I know good drivers and Ben is a terrific driver.

    He put the CGT through its paces and as his passenger I did not feel he was holding a lot back. He drove that car with tremendous skill.

    What Ben is saying and I experienced when I drove it at speed, is the CGT is not made for US streets and highways. It would be a FABULOUS track car (relatively smooth pavement with exciting turns and fast exits). Softening the sway bar will help but I doubt it will overcome some of the other negatives about the car.

    The recent issue of Motor Trend compares the CGT, Enzo and Ford GT. The test is done at an abandoned airfield and the test driver for all three cars was Bryon Herta a professional driver with an excellent reputation. He stalled the the CGT several times because of the clutch. In the minus analysis, MT wrote that buyer's trying to drive this car in normal everyday traffic(they referred to driving down Hollywood blvd) will find it very difficult if not impossible.

    Bottom line is if your going to pay $500,000 for a car you want it to be FUN in more ways then being a track car. The CGT does not meet that criteria.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I had promised myself I would not post here again because of the repeated personal attacks but I feel it is necessary regarding this subject.

    Bottom line is if your going to pay $500,000 for a car you want it to be FUN in more ways then being a track car. The CGT does not meet that criteria.




    Nick, imagine this: I come to your house (I suppose you have a nice house), I meet your wife (I suppose you have a beautiful wife), I look at your art objects around the house (I suppose you have some nice stuff in there) and then I have dinner with you and your beautiful wife, tasting some very good food.
    After all that, I tell you how weird your house looks from an architectal point of view, then I tell you that your wife has a big back and maybe the nose could need some correction too, then I ask you what's with all this crappy art hanging on your walls and sitting on some tables and then I tell you how bad the food tasted and that even the italian restaurant on the next corner makes tastier food.

    How would you feel? If you still don't understand what I mean, just invite me and I provide the feeling you gave to many people over here who own a Porsche or who bought one.


    Regarding the CGT: Mr. Ferdinand Piech picked up his CGT in Leipzig and drove it home to Austria. And if this wouldn't be enough, he has been seen very often in the CGT lately...driving around twisty mountain roads.
    But of course this guy is something over 60 years old...

    I can't comment too much on the CGT driving feel because I didn't have the chance to drive one personally. But judging from the track in Leipzig, I can't imagine the CGT wouldn't be a good daily driver, with the exception of the clutch maybe.

    It is interesting to read that Americans started to fall for the Challenge Stradale because a lot of german Ferrari owners, mainly Stradale owners, were disappointed with the car's performance. I talked to two Stradale owners at the Ferrari Days in Baden Baden last year and although they loved their cars, they expected much more. One of them already sold his car and you can find used Stradale at pretty interesting (though not cheap) prices.
    Same seemed to have happened with the Lotus Elise and other so called "lightweight" cars which haven't been too successful in Europe. But I guess we can argue about this all night long...

    Skill and expectations...

    I think that PAG may have made a mistake in not selecting its CGT customers. Ferrari does this for the wrong snobish reasons, PAG should do it for the right reason of matching customers skills/expectations w/ the car.

    I think that you are correct, the CGT will not be a good car, given the current condition of US roads/streets. That is unfortunate. We should not blame the car but here in CA, CALTRANS.

    I said above driver skills/expectations. I'm sure many CGT buyers are skilled drivers (but not all), but beyond skill there's expectations - what do you want from the car? The CGT is as close to a LM racer as you can get - I suspect that many of its buyers are not going to drive it in LM-like conditions and there lies the problem.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    No, the concentration required didn't tire me but more scared me as I felt the possibility of a serious accident doing my usual mountain driving was high if even a small mistake were to occur. "Putting forth the effort" I'm afraid would by necessity require some screwing up (or at least learning usually does for me) and as you can see from the Stig video, etc, it will "bite your head off" as Clarkson remarked if you do make a mistake. That sort of biting wouldn't bother me at all at the track with proper run off areas. It would be an entirely different "learning experience" on a mountain road.



    At what pace, in terms of tenths, do you drive during your usual mountain driving? It shouldn't "bite your head off" at anything less than nine tenths on the softest bar setting, but I can't be sure.

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    I was really hoping it would serve all my pleasure/sport car needs whereas what it really does is meet a track need. The car would be an utter PIA for a casual drive around town or along the coast. Entering many driveways for say even a Starbucks while out shooting the breeze would be a chore. The only other time I found it to meet my needs (and the test drive was very thorough over many miles, speeds, grades, traffic, etc) was simply cruising on the highway with the top off. That's just too much money for me to justify spending for a highway cruiser when there are so many others that are just as satisfying in that setting.



    I understand.

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    When I said the Stradale was compliant, I meant it rode amazingly well both when pushed and when not. That doesn't mean in any way that the car wasn't extremely communicative - which is was. It is to date the best balanced car I've ever driven - in so many ways. I bought the car late last week and will be taking delivery soon.



    Congratulations!

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    My friend is having his CGT bars set softer and will have the height raised if the 3/4" kit ever actually makes it here. Additionally, Porsche has talked about making some ECU changes to help correct the clutch problem. Once these things are all complete on his car, and if he hasn't sold it, I would love to drive it again to see if my mind is changed. The second drive will be his decision though, not mine. If that's the case and I do change my mind, I suspect there will be ample CGT's available on the market at MSRP or better to choose from for immediate delivery as there is today.



    I would love to hear your drive report when all these things are complete on his car.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:


    Nick, imagine this: I come to your house (I suppose you have a nice house), I meet your wife (I suppose you have a beautiful wife), I look at your art objects around the house (I suppose you have some nice stuff in there) and then I have dinner with you and your beautiful wife, tasting some very good food.
    After all that, I tell you how weird your house looks from an architectal point of view, then I tell you that your wife has a big back and maybe the nose could need some correction too, then I ask you what's with all this crappy art hanging on your walls and sitting on some tables and then I tell you how bad the food tasted and that even the italian restaurant on the next corner makes tastier food.

    How would you feel? If you still don't understand what I mean, just invite me and I provide the feeling you gave to many people over here who own a Porsche or who bought one.
    Quote:




    Fair criticism and point well taken. However this board to be effective and of value must remain open to negative comments (though not incessantly )


    Quote:


    I can't comment too much on the CGT driving feel because I didn't have the chance to drive one personally. But judging from the track in Leipzig, I can't imagine the CGT wouldn't be a good daily driver, with the exception of the clutch maybe.
    Quote:




    If the sway bar is at the 3(?) setting the ride is jarring particularly on uneven roads. The clutch is an abomination.

    Finally I have noticed the number of cancellations of the CGT. Many of these people are race enthusiast but would like to be able to drive their car in an everyday setting. The Stradale is a very fun car to drive and allow you to drive it everyday. It has everything you want in a high performance car. Is it the fastest or the ultimate performance car? NO! But it is a blast to drive.

    Porsche has been doing very well so they do not need my advice and I will not give it to them. But here is a hint..perform good; look good; sound good and fun fun fun.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    If the sway bar is at the 3(?) setting the ride is jarring particularly on uneven roads. The clutch is an abomination.

    Finally I have noticed the number of cancellations of the CGT. Many of these people are race enthusiast but would like to be able to drive their car in an everyday setting. The Stradale is a very fun car to drive and allow you to drive it everyday. It has everything you want in a high performance car. Is it the fastest or the ultimate performance car? NO! But it is a blast to drive.

    Porsche has been doing very well so they do not need my advice and I will not give it to them. But here is a hint..perform good; look good; sound good and fun fun fun.



    Wow, Nick. I'm impressed, honestly.
    Finally you "adapted" to the friendly "music" of this forum. Criticism is no problem, negative comments aren't a problem either but the tone makes the music and you just found back to the right music.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:

    If the sway bar is at the 3(?) setting the ride is jarring particularly on uneven roads. The clutch is an abomination.

    Finally I have noticed the number of cancellations of the CGT. Many of these people are race enthusiast but would like to be able to drive their car in an everyday setting. The Stradale is a very fun car to drive and allow you to drive it everyday. It has everything you want in a high performance car. Is it the fastest or the ultimate performance car? NO! But it is a blast to drive.

    Porsche has been doing very well so they do not need my advice and I will not give it to them. But here is a hint..perform good; look good; sound good and fun fun fun.



    Wow, Nick. I'm impressed, honestly.
    Finally you "adapted" to the friendly "music" of this forum. Criticism is no problem, negative comments aren't a problem either but the tone makes the music and you just found back to the right music.



    I'm glad the two of you are back on good terms. It is a good example for the rest of us.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    "It is interesting to read that Americans started to fall for the Challenge Stradale because a lot of german Ferrari owners, mainly Stradale owners, were disappointed with the car's performance."

    That is interesting. So I assume they are similarly disappointed with the GT3RS which performs in line with it?

    Re: Skill and expectations...

    "I think that PAG may have made a mistake in not selecting its CGT customers. Ferrari does this for the wrong snobish reasons, PAG should do it for the right reason of matching customers skills/expectations w/ the car."

    When you're making 399 examples as Ferrari did, you can do that. However, when you make 1500, you have to sell to anyone willing and able to pay you $500K.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    That is interesting. So I assume they are similarly disappointed with the GT3RS which performs in line with it?



    It does? Since when? The GT3 RS costs in Germany 45000 Euro (~ 54000 USD) less than the Ferrari Challenge Stradale. In Hockenheim (Kleiner Ring) the GT3 RS is almost 2 seconds faster than the Challenge Stradale and on the Nordschleife, the GT3 RS is almost 9 seconds faster than the Challenge Stradale. The Challenge Stradale isn't even close to GT3 RS performance and it is much more expensive.
    Did I mention the 0-125 mph acceleration times? 15.5 seconds for the Challenge Stradale (only one second less than my 997 Carrera S ) and 13.5 seconds (2 seconds less!) for the GT3 RS. I really don't understand where you see any "in line with GT3 RS" Challenge Stradale performance.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    "At what pace, in terms of tenths, do you drive during your usual mountain driving? It shouldn't "bite your head off" at anything less than nine tenths on the softest bar setting, but I can't be sure."

    I leave my PSM on and drive pretty close to it most of the time. It will generally come on a few times during each of these drives. IOW, I'd say I'm probably in the 8-9/10+ range. I'd estimate the drive with the CGT (being someone elses and being unfamiliar with it) at no more than 7/10. If all the stars align and the owner is willing should the opportunity present, I would love a try at a softer barred, and 3/4" raised CGT drive - especially post ECU adjustment for the clutch. While the flywheel chatter is not fixable, I deal with that in my current car and could live with it. Additionally, the "confined quarters" feel could probably be tolerated if the other three things were satisfactorily addressed. I still love the car and think Porsche did a wonderful job on their (MUCH more attractive than) ENZO spanker for a healthy discount to it at that. It's kind of like how they compete with the CS with their RS for a fraction of the dough.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    That is interesting. So I assume they are similarly disappointed with the GT3RS which performs in line with it?



    It does? Since when? The GT3 RS costs in Germany 45000 Euro (~ 54000 USD) less than the Ferrari Challenge Stradale. In Hockenheim (Kleiner Ring) the GT3 RS is almost 2 seconds faster than the Challenge Stradale and on the Nordschleife, the GT3 RS is almost 9 seconds faster than the Challenge Stradale. The Challenge Stradale isn't even close to GT3 RS performance and it is much more expensive.
    Did I mention the 0-125 mph acceleration times? 15.5 seconds for the Challenge Stradale (only one second less than my 997 Carrera S ) and 13.5 seconds (2 seconds less!) for the GT3 RS. I really don't understand where you see any "in line with GT3 RS" Challenge Stradale performance.



    My bad, I just assumed an ex-F1 driver for Top Gear who drove both cars similarly skillfully around the race track he knows so well on the same day in the same weather when they both turned in exactly 1.22.3 was a fairly good indication of their similarity of performance. You Germany guys do like to throw around a lot of higher speed track times together with 0 to high speed numbers but that sort of stuff gets us arrested on public streets whereas it's perfectly acceptable on the autobahn. Conversely, we never see anything remotely close to those speeds on our mountain drives and are therefore more irrelevant for this setting.

    Also I couldn't help but notice Top Gear's driver screwed up once with the CS but had a nice smooth run in the RS on his journey to exactly the same times. Then again, the fact that Clarkson was on the ass of the F1 factory driver in the CS (and even passed him) was telling. The CS seemed to spend more time sideways than did the RS which suggests the RS is a better handler - unless he was just having fun (sideways is always more fun even if considerably slower).

    Personally, the sound of the Stradale gives me a hard on. Further, Clarkson (and many others) have commented on the bone jarring ride of the RS whereas the CS is amazingly compliant. In addition, I'm not aware if the RS has A/C but the CS does (along with my comfy leather, a radio, and power windows) - even if the RS was a product we could get in the U.S. I also have to admit it kind of chaps my ass that Porsche says "take in on the track and you have no warranty" whereas Ferrari says "take it on the track and you do have warranty". As well, Porsche's pathetic R&D and treatment of its customers with regard to the ceramic brakes (as well as our shifting/hesitation in our TT Cay) seems uncharacteristic.

    PS. I find it rather hard to believe that a vastly more powerful, lighter CS has a problem kicking the crap out of a 997 (S or otherwise) in a straightline. That said, at least I wouldn't have to have someone wake me up when I was done in the CS as would likely be the case in the 997.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    You have to say what you said but I don't blame you.
    I always enjoy it when you mention the mountain roads, it must be real fun. Unfortunately I live in Bavaria only 100 km from Austria and 150 km from Switzerland and I don't have a clue about mountain roads.
    You mention the sound of the CS (hard on with a car? I prefer my wife... ), the A/C and some comfort. Interesting comment for somebody who started to argue with me about Lotus and weight.

    ben, I'm sorry if I sound a little bit arrogant but I don't know you. Only thing I'm almost sure: you must be very young. Nothing wrong with that and I was the same. Comes time, comes wisdom as we say here.

    Why aren't you honest? You love the Ferrari Challenge Stradale because it is loud, it looks sexy and you enjoy driving it because it feels good and people on the street are starring at you. There is nothing wrong with that, just admit it. Good night.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    RC, there sure were a lot of (incorrect) assumptions in that last post along with an attitude which luckily I've not been on the other end of previously.

    "You mention the sound of the CS (hard on with a car? I prefer my wife..."

    Since you have a 997S, I understand why you are not stimulated by both.

    "Interesting comment for somebody who started to argue with me about Lotus and weight."

    Where the heck did that come from? I LOVE the Elise PRECISELY because of it's light weight and will most likely get one when the premiums die down in the U.S.

    "Only thing I'm almost sure: you must be very young."

    Being 38, I didn't realize you were so much older.

    "Why aren't you honest? You love the Ferrari Challenge Stradale because it is loud, it looks sexy and you enjoy driving it because it feels good and people on the street are starring at you."

    I love it because it ISN"T loud under 4k RPM or if you don't want it to be. I'm the guy who took off two aftermarket exhausts off my 996 (including PSE) because it was too loud. It's not really about volume of sound with the CS (in fact I was quite surprised it wasn't appreciably louder than it is after reading much about it over the last year+) as much as it is the type of sound. Further, the high revving motor allows you to operate the car in a non-offensive manner on the road while being able to cut loose soundwise when more appropriate and considerate.

    Is it sexy? Sure! Do I like that? Sure! Does it feel good? Absolutely! Do I like people starring at me because I paid too much for a car? Hell no. That's why I got titanium instead of a more common F-car color. As well, that is one of the redeeming factors of the coupe vs. cab in this particular car - ie: the driver isn't on display.

    I hope I've cleared up some of your erroneous assumptions.

     
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