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    Nov 6, 2002 5:10:58 PM

    FutchM
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    Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    I read in a couple of magazines now that the 997 will be equiped with PDK transmission.
    Essentially, this will be Porsche's answer to the F1 and SMG2 transmission.
    It consists of a double clutch, the first one taking care of 1st , 3rd and 5th gear while the 2nd clutch takes care of 2nd, 4th and 6th gear just like Formula 1
    Which means that whenever you'll be in 2nd gear for example, the computer of the other clutch will already be working out the perfect transmission timing for 3rd gear,
    expect instantaneous gear change,
    Brilliant
    Don't know how reliable ths info is though,
    Christian, any thoughts?
    Francois.

    Nov 6, 2002 5:49:18 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    What magazine di you read this in? is it in English by any chance?

    Nov 6, 2002 6:06:50 PM

    Avoe
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    hey, sounds very nice. But just because of the fact that porsche as one of the best sports car (oh and SUV ) manufactorers has to offer somethin like this. Anyway i wouldn't order it in my next car, I think in a real sports car you need to have a clutch and a manuall speed. Otherwise you can drive a SL.

    I often asked myselfe why porsche doesn't offer for the c4, turbo, etc, somethin like a button which you can choose if you want the 4wd option or not. This would be great, I hate the 4 wd cars, even if its not permanent 4wd like in the porsche, but in winter when it's snowing it would be helpful. So my wish would be a 4wd porsche with the visco clutch, which you can turn of compleatly to a c2 if you like. In this case I would also put up with the few kg more.
    As far as I know most of the SUV have such an option. So it will not be a big mass to produce something similar. aaaight?

    Nov 7, 2002 8:29:55 AM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    Sport Auto from France and This week's Autocar UK (Cayenne Turbo Cover, whole article on Porsche's futur)
    But mostly from my friend who races and teaches at Club Porsche de France, he heard it himself from the president of the club.
    So I believe the info could be quite consistent.

    Nov 7, 2002 10:59:37 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Why do you hate 4WD? Please explain.

    4WD actually gives only advantages, one reason why 4WD is forbidden in almost all race series worldwide.

    Nov 7, 2002 11:30:10 AM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Why do you hate 4WD? Please explain.

    I personnaly don't hate it but I have been told that for the same power between a 2WD and a 4WD, you lose traction on the 4WD, well, it makes sense really.
    320hp on 2 wheels give better acceleration than 320hp on 4 wheels.
    But then, 4WD allows you to press the accelerator sooner when exiting a bend, it feels more glued to the road as well.
    Depends on personnal tastes I suppose.
    Gives better active safety as weel, although there is the risk of getting over confident and since the limits are higher, it's trickier to correct the car once it's gone ( I know what I'm talking about, damned aquaplanning )
    Fanch.

    Nov 7, 2002 11:34:55 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Why do you hate 4WD? Please explain.

    IMHO better acceleration is due to the lower weight of 2WD cars... the traction is way better with 4WD!

    regarding avi: a "turn off" feature for 4WD makes no sense to me... you have the weight all the time but not the benefit. the only purpose i can think of is when you love to go sideways on the track and drive your car in wintertime as well.

    Nov 7, 2002 11:45:45 AM

    Avoe
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Why do you hate 4WD? Please explain.

    As you said it gives only advanteges, and this advantages I would only like to have in winter. I'm driving my car the whole year, and when it's snowing for example, it would be very helpful to move the car a bit faster.
    I also test drove a c4 cab before I made my dessicion. If you drive the car normaly you don't recognize any difference, but as soon as you drive fast, and accelerate out of curves, you feel how the steering pulls like in a fwd car. Of course it's safer but I like it when the rear tries to pass you. And with a c2 you can drift the car much better and nicer if you like . I'm sure you know what I mean. Let's say like this and bring it to one major point, it makes much more fun with rwd.
    My opinion is that for the normal carrera 300 or 320 hp you don't need 4wd as well as tiptronic at all, because it takes from you more than it brings.

    Nov 7, 2002 12:41:25 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Re: Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    In reply to:
    I often asked myselfe why porsche doesn't offer for the c4, turbo, etc, somethin like a button which you can choose if you want the 4wd option or not.



    My wish would not be for an "off" button but for some sort of variable differential which gave the driver control like in a rally car. I think that would be fantastic!!!

    Wonder why it isn't done. Wonder how easy it would be to do it aftermarket.

    S.

    Nov 7, 2002 1:54:43 PM

    Tpup
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Next generation 911 with PDK transmission

    I read an article years ago about a C2 and C4 on a track somewhere. The C2 lap times were better early on, however, the C4 lap times caught up, and then passed, the C2. The C2 slowed down as the agressive track use overheating the loaded tire or tires. The article stated that the C4 did a better job of "tire managment" after many laps.

    Roy

    Nov 7, 2002 4:25:57 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Any drivetrain has inherent power losses - but AWD has more

    The power lost (as heat) in the drivetrain (clutch, driveshafts and half-shafts, U-joints, etc) is much worse with AWD. Where perhaps 15% of the power and torque is wasted with RWD, perhaps 20-25% is wasted with AWD.

    AWD is only advantageous when the power of the engine is greater than the traction of the rear wheels to stay connected to the road. In a rear-engine car like a 996, there is almost always enough traction, unless the engine has tremendous torque or the tires are poor, or if weather makes the friction low. In a non-turbo 996 with track tires, only rain or snow can make AWD better.

    Nov 7, 2002 6:57:05 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Any drivetrain has inherent power losses - but AWD has more

    Well, I wonder why the older Porsche 4WD models always accelerated faster from 0-100 kph than the 2WD models?!
    And even from 0-200 kph, the difference was almost non-existant.
    I did professional rallye racing many years ago and I learned to love 4WD. I love it on my Turbo too and I can do things with my car which 2WD cars would only dream of. At least in the hands of a amateur driver.

    Nov 7, 2002 7:26:55 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: RCA

    Well, RC, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, so

    maybe I'm just old-fashioned. I'm a bit of a purist and it takes me awhile to warm up to new technologies that don't always improve the fun as advertised. I just like the feeling of RWD more (seems more nimble and easier to steer with the throttle). Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself that my new GT3 will be more fun to drive than my father's 996TT - which is fun, but seems more like a high-speed cruiser than a sports car. Often, I have more fun in my 73 911S...

    -Grant

    Nov 7, 2002 11:42:08 PM

    Erik
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Well, RC, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, so

    I think it's a great thing that Porsche lets us choose between AWD and RWD models. Everyone has their preferences, and both setups have their fair share of benefits. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. You can only respect both camps. The purist mentality for me, is about having the least amount of driver aids possible so that you get the most reward out of your driving experience. You get back what you put in, so to speak. However, it can be tricky to decide sometimes whether or not to go without new technologies if they really do improve your performance/dynamics/driveability. In this case the C2 vs. C4 debate. I normally pefer the C4' heavier steering that retains all of the feel of the C2's. I also like the better balance of the car. But here's an interesting tidbit. The C2's seem to push more whereas the C4 does have some understeer, but will come out neutral if you do your part. You can induce controlled oversteer as well, but naturally it won't be the same as doing it in a C2. Since I like to drive a the limit, the extra security is nice too, especially since it's my daily driver. My trusty M coupe keeps me sharp though, so I don't become too dependent on the technologies, if you know what I mean.
    .....and as Tpup brought up the test of the C2 vs. C4 and how the C4 managed it tires better, beating out the C2, I leave you with this quote from an old "Road & Track" article. "Three-time Le Mans 24 Hours winner, five-time Daytona and two-time Sebring champ Hurley Haywood who also won the 1988 SCCA Trans-Am Championship insists that all-wheel drive is superior. It maintains its performance for a longer period of time."
    "The Carrera 2 would be faster for one or two laps, mostly because it's about 150 pounds lighter. But over a five-lap period the Carrera 4 would be quicker because it manages its tires better and allows you to lay down power through all four wheels. That's why awd has been banned from just about every racing series."--Haywood

    But naturally, RWD simply entertains the driver on a special level, and there's nothing wrong with that

    Nov 7, 2002 11:56:48 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Erik

    Erik - I agree, it's great to have a choice!

    Very few automakers (I can't think of any) give you a choice between RWD and AWD... (Audi and Volvo give a lame choice between FWD and AWD). Oh, I just thought of another - BMW does with the 3 series. BTW, those M Coupes sure are fun! Do you love that car? I just don't see why they weigh more than 3,000 lbs, since they're so small. I think modern German sports cars must be made of lead or something

    Nov 8, 2002 12:35:08 AM

    Erik
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Erik - I agree, it's great to have a choice!

    Yes...I adore my "M Shoe", and I beat the hell out of it the way i drive her. We always have a lot of fun together when I do drive her on the weekends. The car definatley feels like it's a part of you in a driving sense. You are right though about the weight factor though. Same thing with the M3. Ugh! Thank God for the upcoming CSL, but who knows how much they'll charge for it. If I was looking to buy a car right now, it would be between this and the new GT3. Yes, I know one is a Porsche, and one is a Bimmer, but things like that 50:50 weight distribution and trick M-differential only make the decision harder. By the time I'm ready to buy a new car, maybe the new Nissan GT-R will be out......hmmmm

    Nov 8, 2002 1:25:20 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Erik

    Erik - Where do you live - we won't get the CSL in USA...

    Hope to get the new Skyline though... What do you know about its specs?

    Nov 8, 2002 3:44:59 AM

    Erik
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Erik - Where do you live - we won't get the CSL in USA...

    ....No CSL for us? Really? Do you know the reason why?

    Engine details on the GT-R are still very sketchy. This info is quoted from someone with supposed inside info. "The engines under evaluation are a V8, the VQ series V6 and a stroked version of the RB series. Apparently all of these engines are being tested in normally aspirated and turbocharged forms. Unfortunately it seems that the VQ is only good for 400 kw (538 hp) before the block cracks.
    Yes!, the Engine Choices have been narrowed down to three, including the RB engine." "the leading direction is the V8 engine, that reportedly handles 634hp when turbo charged." There have also been reports of supercharging as an option, but it is believed that this option has been ruled out...maybe. According to Patrick Pilata the Vice-president of product planning at Nissan we should expect around 400hp regardless of engine. Other news... The cvt gearbox is canceled. Will be 6-speed manual. Price $US..give or take a little...55k. If any official news comes out, i will post it.

    Nov 8, 2002 4:58:28 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Erik

    Much of weight savings for CSL comes from bumpers, etc, so

    they no longer pass US crash regs...

    Nov 8, 2002 5:15:57 PM

    LG1
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Much of weight savings for CSL comes from bumpers, etc, so

    CSL vs GT3 is a very interesting matchup, especially since the CSL during testing at the Ring is rumored to have broken the 8 minute barrier consistently!
    But they still haven't decided how the production version will be, probably the materials used to lower the weight on the prototypes are too expensive.
    With all the use of carbonfibre, aluminum honeycombs, thinner windows, etc. the CSL prototypes still weigh around 1430 kgs; more than a stovk GT3.
     
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