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    Sep 9, 2008 5:46:46 PM

    Nugget
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't want a 911 with more horsepower, I want a 911 that weighs less. Comparing horsepower is less than half the story.

    Even still, my non-X51 997S can hang with some really high horsepower cars out on the track, and I wouldn't trade the rear weight bias for anything. After a steady diet of mid-engine and 50/50 weight balance cars I'm in love with the cornering and and handling quirkiness that the 911 brings.

    Everyone who wants a V8 or mid-engine 911 should just shop other marques or models. We'll all be a lot happier then.

    Sep 9, 2008 5:53:26 PM

    Nastinupe1
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here. I have no regrets purchasing my baby. I actually started this thread after coming across a Nissan GTR. We played around on an open road a bit, pulling at different speeds. We also hit some curves and that car was simply amazing. I felt like I was driving a Civic compared to how quick that car was. And Nissan was able to build that car and charge $71,000 USD.

    Now let me ask you this my Pcar loving brothers...

    Why is it that Porsche is the company with the highest profit margin per unit than any other car maker in the world?

    It's because they are holding out on us. They are over charging us for our cars. I will pay $100,000 USD for a Porsche, but don't skimp out on me and not give me everything that you got. Then make a car that costs $192,000 that should really cost $110,000.

    Porsche knows that they have customer loyalty and therefore they don't have to put out monsters like the GTR.

    If we don't start pushing Porsche, the 911 will be nothing but a touring car in 10 years while Hyundai's and Nissans will be flashing their lights to move us over and blow pass us on the open road.

    Sep 9, 2008 6:22:21 PM

    JAG007
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Strange, how many people can legally use 300bhp on the road (let alone more) without breaking the law...

    Now how many can drive a base 997 mk1 properly around a circuit...

    I really enjoy my 997S around the circuit but let me say it, I have not gotten the better of it (still want the Gt3 MkII though!).

    There is a good reason the Caterhams of this world are selling well, I wish we could get a stripped 968CS in 911 form (base engine would be fine) which was Pounds55.000 rather than a GT3 which with options will probably now go for Pounds100.000, we are just losing touch with what really makes a car "fun".

    Sep 9, 2008 6:43:33 PM

    Nastinupe1
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    My S2000 was "fun". My go cart was "fun". I never said that my 997 wasn't fun, I'm saying that Porsche knows that they can compete but they make us pay the price to do so. It's crazy to charge $200,000 for the GT2. Anyone of us could purchase a $75,000 base 911 and spend $50,000 on after market work and blow the doors off a GT2. And you're telling me that Porsche can't even do it for cheaper?

    That's a bunch of BS and Porsche knows it. Don't let Porsche brainwash you into thinking that you have to spend $200,000 for GT2 performance. Wait until the V-Spec GTR comes out. You'll see what $100,000 can do.

    Sep 9, 2008 6:45:24 PM

    Nastinupe1
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    And no... leather stiching, exterior painted center console, and a suede-lined roof is not worth $75,000.

    Sep 9, 2008 6:51:11 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I see no end to this thread, it's a black hole.... It should be titled, "let's argue apples to apricots"... Or "Semantics 101"

    Everybody's convinced that Porsche is "losing ground", but nobody has a basis for the claim, or any real specifics...

    Ferdie, I read your posts, and still have no real grasp of what you're getting at... Alot of words, very little substance. Please be specific. And how is Porsche not still considered a superior brand? If you look at the market-position, and price-ranges relative to inflation, Porsche of today is very little different than Porsche of yesterday as it pertains to heirarchy.

    If there's a most-singular reason that Porsche seemed so alone on its pedestal in the past, it's because the market for such cars was far slimmer... Nobody was competing for such a small demand, it was left to smaller "niche" companies... Unless you lived in a major city, you wouldn't have access to a Porsche dealer.

    Now that enormous mainstream manufacturers like Nissan are throwing their wealth and vast sea of engineers at a top-realm performance car, everybody wrings their hands and starts whining..., but at the same time, do any Porsche owners want to own an oddly-styled overweight Japanese techno-marvel? Not really.... So it's not terribly relevant, and all this worrying is, in my opinion, spun-up out of thin air and boredom.

    I don't get it... I'm still enjoying the hell out of my car, and there's ALWAYS a better mousetrap lurking around the corner, or a far cheaper car that can show you its taillights in a straight line....

    Back in 1980, my Mom's nephew-in-law bought a brand-new 911... I remember drooling over it as a kid, red with tan leather and a whale tail.... After a bit of good-natured jabs regarding who's car was faster, my dad pulled out his '79 Trans Am 400 4-speed WS6-equipped black/gold Special Edition, and they set out to a straight stretch of highway 441 across Paynes Prairie to settle the score....The ladies were annoyed, and made them promise not to go too fast...

    When they got back, Dad was grinning ear-to-ear... Nephew-in-law was sheepish.

    It's always been this way, in some realm of performance... always... Not worth talking about...

    Sep 9, 2008 7:13:26 PM

    reginos
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    Reply to: Nastinupe1

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Nastinupe1 said:
    My S2000 was "fun". My go cart was "fun". I never said that my 997 wasn't fun, I'm saying that Porsche knows that they can compete but they make us pay the price to do so. It's crazy to charge $200,000 for the GT2. Anyone of us could purchase a $75,000 base 911 and spend $50,000 on after market work and blow the doors off a GT2. And you're telling me that Porsche can't even do it for cheaper?

    That's a bunch of BS and Porsche knows it. Don't let Porsche brainwash you into thinking that you have to spend $200,000 for GT2 performance. Wait until the V-Spec GTR comes out. You'll see what $100,000 can do.



    Why would you pay even more then for an Italian machine when you can get your thrills cheaply with a V-spec?

    Sep 9, 2008 7:24:14 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Why pay over $1 million for an original Ford GT40, when you can pick up a newer one for $150K that's faster, better handling, and has A/C, stereo and power windows??

    We're forgetting about the intangibles that blur the lines between machine and art, form and function....

    If you're into putting price tags on performance, and blowing-off the intangibles, build a fast Pinto...

    Sep 9, 2008 7:27:27 PM

    Drewes
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    Reply to: Nastinupe1

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    again, well said

    Sep 9, 2008 7:41:38 PM

    Nastinupe1
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Come on guys. I know that I can build a CRX that can beat a Lamborghini, but that's not the point. The point is Porsche not building cars to their full potential.

    Example: Porsche doesn't want the Cayman to step on the 911's heels, so they don't give it more than 295 hp. I'm sure that now that the 911 has extra hp, they will step up the Caymn just a bit, but not enough to allow it to over run the 911.

    Porsche needs to step it up with the 998's. I'm expecting to see a large bump in performace from them or I will complain for real.

    If we don't ask for it, they will think that adding 20 hp and bluetooth will keep us happy forever.

    I want GT2 performance for $120k and I want it now!!!

    Sep 9, 2008 7:55:06 PM

    RAKLAW
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?



    Back in 1980, my Mom's nephew-in-law bought a brand-new 911... I remember drooling over it as a kid, red with tan leather and a whale tail.... After a bit of good-natured jabs regarding who's car was faster, my dad pulled out his '79 Trans Am 400 4-speed WS6-equipped black/gold Special Edition, and they set out to a straight stretch of highway 441 across Paynes Prairie to settle the score....The ladies were annoyed, and made them promise not to go too fast...

    When they got back, Dad was grinning ear-to-ear... Nephew-in-law was sheepish.

    jerry reed (RIP) would be proud of your dad

    Sep 9, 2008 7:58:28 PM

    Moogle
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    5-8~ years ago I used to think that anyone that bought a Maserati instead of a 911 was trying too hard to be different and sacrificing too much to do so.

    Indeed, back then- the alternatives to the 911 were few and far between and they were quite inferior in terms of build quality and reliablity.

    Fast forward to present day, Maserati GT/S, Aston V8 Vantage, Lotus, Nissan GTR are all presenting very enticing, very well built alternatives that one may seriously consider if they want something that does what the 911 does, but with an added je ne sais quoi that the 911 does not have.

    To be honest, in this price point, 99% of people would choose a 911, because it is such an iconic car... but after you've had a few, you get the gist and it's time to move on.

    What is Porsche doing to maintain repeat customers? Their dealers routinely shaft their long time customers and force everyone to pay a premium when a really amazing model comes out (GT3RS/GT2), and they need a car in the 250~k range - a baby Carrera GT maybe, that will keep serial 911 owners dreaming.

    Sep 9, 2008 8:04:26 PM

    MMD
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    How about this?

    Look at your peers. If they are young and varied car guys you are going to be in competition with them. Unless you have a CGT, your 911 is gonna be fair game for "attack" by other mfgrs.

    If you're like me (not _THAT_ great BTW ). There's no other car to have. A Corvette is too "GM," a GTR is freeking ugly, a [blank] has [some negative fault here].

    You just get the Porsche and you're done; the pinnacle of sports car ownership has been achieved, everybody understands and accepts Porsche and goes on to the next issue.

    Please don't try playing the card that there's a majority of d-bags that buy them for the name recognition either; not true.

    For public road use they are simply __THE__ best cars. Go risk lives and break the laws on the roadways, race a Corvette, or a GTR: WTF for? Nothing to prove! Everybody I know __KNOWS__ Porsche is THE BEST road car: period.

    Or again, go hang around kids with their hot, blinged-up cars burning up the pavement, making noise Saturday night and you'll be _required_ to enter the debate of which car is better.

    In all other driver's car circles where a "good value" is not a requirement, CASE CLOSED: P is best.

    FWIW

    Sep 9, 2008 8:07:09 PM

    Minok
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Losing ground on what basis to whom?

    I really don't care, actually. It doesn't matter what other makes are producing or what anyone else wants to buy.

    I'm buying my car, and its only for me. The rest of the planet is irrelevant, other than the county tax office, I guess.

    Sep 9, 2008 8:08:55 PM

    Moogle
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I agree MMD,

    Porsche is indeed the best. They just have a few downsides that some of the more exclusive niche manufacturers do not.

    1. The brand is ubiquitous. You can't go 1 mile in a metropolitain area without seeing one.

    2. The brand is diluted, building too many utilitarian models.

    3. Minimum price of entry is perhaps too low.

    Sep 9, 2008 8:41:50 PM

    Nastinupe1
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    You're right. I believe that Porsche IS the best brand for a sports car. I would never trust Ferrari and Lamborghini just cost too damn much for what they offer.

    I love my car and even after I was spanked by the GTR all over the freeway, I still didn't want to own one... maybe drive one for a couple of days, but not own one.

    I believe that my pinnacle will be a turbo, which I probably won't buy for another 10 years. I just want to be proud of my purchase and not feel like a BMW that looks like a 3 series can run my 911 Turbo down when it's stock.

    Sep 9, 2008 8:57:37 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    As most know I have complained about the direction Porsche has been taking for the past 10 years. I have always believed that Porsche's are well engineered and built. Yet what I have found lacking is the car no longer excites.

    It is like a favorite pair of old shoes that you resole time and time again. Though still useable, the outer cover reveals age, staleness and dullness. What made the shoe viable was the soles still had grip and performed well. But what has happened recently is the sole is slipping and losing grip. Whereas before one could tolerate the stale outer look (one British magazine descrbed the appearance of the 911 as a retro joke) because of its superiority in performance, today that is just not the case.

    The 911 needs a shot in the arm. Loyal buyers are not doing the brand any favor by buying whatever Porsche throws at them.

    Sep 9, 2008 9:49:41 PM

    jo2k
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Most pay for Porsche's prestige and HERITAGE which accumilated through last couple decades. Only history would tell decades from now whether those could stay the same. In the mean while, everything Porsche does will affect the outcome. Winning races, perfecting the handling, introducing PDK, DI engines definitely helps. Adding Cayenne / Panamera etc won't.

    Today we're at a modern era that merchandise could not imprints their brand image into our brains even further. Everyone sells and tries cash into intangibles such as "culture" "history" "heritage" which would seemingly outshine the true essence and fundamentals. Couldn't afford a Ferrari? Sure for $99 you too can own a piece of glorious heritage and history with a red shirt having a horse sticking to the chest. How about a laptop that comes in red too? While that is probably very different than the reason you see grannys driving Cayennes, and while if it was not because of selling Cayennes to the grannys there would probably never been CGT or PCCB, or GT2 and so on, you get what I mean. And all these does add up. And it'll take another 5, 10, maybe 20 years to see the result of today's cause.

    While no one would say Porsche lost their way with 911s, many do question their tailed-to-the-market approach.

    Sep 9, 2008 10:21:04 PM

    ADias
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Now it's my turn... As many here know I owned a 996C4 and skipped the 997.1 and drive a C6. The C6 is a great car, great engine, great handling but it's not a 911... The 997.2S changes everything. With its (conservative) 385HP it is now very competitive. It will still be passed by Z06s and GT-Rs but its feel and handling is unsurpassed. It's not a car for bragging rights and exclusivity goals - it's a car to enjoy alone and be happy!

    Sep 9, 2008 10:27:35 PM

    Minok
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    We have to keep one thing in mind. Talking about the advancement of engineering, and automotive design is all well and good, however, the one guiding principle that absolutely must be followed is that the company must run a profitable business. If not, no mater how innovative or beautiful the cars are, it will cease to exist.

    Some companies gain profitability through race performance and very high prices on their vehicles.

    If a 911, or whatever their flagship car was, be it the Cayman or something else, cost $250 for the base model, I'd not be interested in it one bit. It would never be on my radar screen. There comes a point at which a automobile, as a daily driver, which I require for all of my cars, becomes economically stupid at a price level.

    Sep 9, 2008 10:54:15 PM

    scubywrxr
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Guys lets take our heads out of the sand. I am a Porsche fanatic but its seriously embarrassing to see an Audi beat a equivalent Porsche.. I thought this day would never come but it has arrived and the 911 is no longer the benchmark no matter how much we would like to believe it is. Mid engine cars or front mid engined cars are now superior in all respects, ceramic brakes have made most competitors Porsches equal in that dept. so we only have a racing heritage to hold onto(not for long though since BMW and Audi have superior racers in almost all categories now )Porsche needs a serious wake up call!

    Sep 9, 2008 11:21:35 PM

    ElTonioni Offline
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    There are two kinds of Porsche drivers.

    1. Those who car about other cars beating them in a drag race.
    2. Those who have been, or will one day go to Le Mans.

    I'd be happy for group one to buy a Corvette instead.

    Sep 10, 2008 12:36:06 AM

    da duke
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I love this thread- its a doozie!!

    Real simple- YOU DONT HAVE TO BUY A PORSCHE! if you dont want to.

    But because we love to pontificate and debate, can I add some words to the thread from my point of view.

    Is Porche losing ground? Lets look at that comment.

    The Company

    The sales of the 911 Porche were the largest in the company's history.Porche just had their most profitable year ever. The company is financially strong enough to be able to develop not only in the Panamera and to buy into VW/Audi. So the company definitley doesnt seem to be going backwards.

    The CARS.

    The best supercar of 2008 by motor writer poll was the 997 GT2. DONE-DUSTED- OVER THE LINE

    The Porche car is the No 1 rated car in finish and build quality in the world for a few years running. NOTHING WRONG HERE.

    The comment made about dilution of brand is an interesting one. I think there are a few mistakes lately in particular the base Cayenne and boxter. But with the perspective of being a very long observer (and owner) of Porches and the car industry, I would prefer a financially robust Porche company that has the funds to keep producing great cars. Most of you Porsche owners would relate to this with your own business's. We cannot reinvest if we dont have the cash.
    Every now in time, a great car like the GTR is produced by the large companies. However Carl Gossen had to make Nissan very profitable before he was able to spend a lot of money producing a car that would be a very small part of Nissans annual sales.

    The good thing is that cars like the GTR and the RS8 have probably pushed Porsche into putting the 997.2 motor and PDK in now rather than in 2 years time. Competition is good.

    I was buying 911's when Porsche was almost bankrupt and i can tell you the cars werent the best. They leaked, there AC never worked. the radio's were crap. I remember putting duck tape aroung my targa top on one long drive to keep the cold out. On one of my Turbo's the clutch was so stiff I developed a extremely muscled left quads just from driving the brute!

    If you want to scare yourself with more power, try racing a current model muscle car around a wet mountain circuit and then get out of that car and get into straight back into a 997s/C4s/Turbo/GT2 and do it again. You will get the point.

    As you can gather its being a long time affair I have had with Porche. Sometimes we've parted company (to Merc/BMW/Lexus/Rover/Ferrari/Audi)and then we kiss and make up.

    The other reason I currently own a Porche instead of a Ferrari is; that I can drive over speed bumps. I can use it occasionally to go shopping. It dosnt need a service often and the labour and parts arent horrendous! I cannot tick one of boxes for the Ferrari.

    Nope, I dont think Porche are losing ground, on the contrary. I think they are better than ever. Watch their space.

    Sep 10, 2008 1:39:37 AM

    MMD
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    da duke said:


    Nope, I dont think Porche are losing ground, on the contrary. I think they are better than ever. Watch their space.



    They may be losing ground in the "ricer" (sorry if that's a bad word), muscle car, 20-something car-guy fringe.

    But that's not a problem and won't become a problem for Porsche.

    When Rolex starts selling it's products at Kmart, then I'll "worry."

    Sep 10, 2008 3:56:28 AM

    U Boat Commander
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    This thread is a repeat of 10-12 similar threads that have been on RT over the last four years.

    Sep 10, 2008 3:00:59 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Minok, da duke and U Boat..... BINGO... You all hit bulls-eyes IMHO....

    This is nonsensical Chicken-Littling.

    And besides, if anybody takes a moment to ponder automotive history, cars like the R8 and GTR come.... and then they go... They never sustain, they never make enough profit or provide enough "halo" marketing value to keep the top brass on-board, and once the platform has run it's course to the last standing customer, they kill it.... And maybe they bring it back several years later under a new "persona" to match the flavor of the day...

    I can remember the flutter and panic when Honda built the NSX under the Acura badge.... 911 over-thinkers were in a panic... It came, it was good, and it phizzled-out, and went...

    Now they're developing a new one from a completely different playbook, to tap into the current trends...

    You DON'T DO THAT if you've got an icon on your hands. Porsche shouldn't be shortsighted and hyper-reactive with the 911, and Chevrolet likewise shouldn't be chasing trends with the Corvette...

    When you chase trends and fashion, you're forever chasing the tail of the dog, and the product that you poured so many gobs of money into, has a definite and certain life-span.

    Nope, the 911 will endure. The Corvette will endure. Mid-engined V8 Ferraris and front-engine V12 Ferraris will endure.... And others will come and go like flashes in the pan, stealing several years of limelight like woodpeckers pecking at a tree...

    Stay the course Porsche, believe in your past success, and evolve in a manner that pleases your past customers and continues to draw new customers.. Keep your eye on the ball.

    Sep 10, 2008 3:06:39 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Oh, and those who think the price of entry is too low....

    912
    914
    924
    944
    Boxster

    How has anything changed?????

    Sep 10, 2008 5:11:21 PM

    ADias
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:... Nope, the 911 will endure. The Corvette will endure. Mid-engined V8 Ferraris and front-engine V12 Ferraris will endure.... And others will come and go like flashes in the pan, stealing several years of limelight like woodpeckers pecking at a tree...



    Well said.

    Sep 10, 2008 6:07:09 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    This is nonsensical Chicken-Littling.


    69bossnine, you have a gift for summing things up in a one-liner.

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I can remember the flutter and panic when Honda built the NSX under the Acura badge.... 911 over-thinkers were in a panic... It came, it was good, and it phizzled-out, and went...


    The NSX (sold as a Honda outside the USA, not as an Acura) got an excellent press response, obviously must have been a very good car (I never got to drive one ), and was technologically very interesting.

    But, Honda thought they were having a good day if they built ten of them!

    Sep 10, 2008 6:11:04 PM

    edz
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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    scubywrxr said:
    Guys lets take our heads out of the sand. I am a Porsche fanatic but its seriously embarrassing to see an Audi beat a equivalent Porsche.. I thought this day would never come but it has arrived and the 911 is no longer the benchmark no matter how much we would like to believe it is. Mid engine cars or front mid engined cars are now superior in all respects, ceramic brakes have made most competitors Porsches equal in that dept. so we only have a racing heritage to hold onto(not for long though since BMW and Audi have superior racers in almost all categories now )Porsche needs a serious wake up call!



    I agree and unfortunately even the 997TT has stiff competition out there. I remember days that the 911 hardly had a rival behind the light and nowdays even with the 911TT you have to watch out.

    I wonder what Porsche is thinking but I sense a bit of arrogance that you buy the car because it's a Porsche. Undoubtly Porsche can squeeze more H.P. and performance out of their cars and with a little less greed offer more performance at a very little price increase. But I don't see that happening

    Many little Honda's and Acura's can get supercharged right at the dealer and add a Nos to the car and you have a monster that can keep up with you if not beat you.

    Punks have tried to challenge me quite often on the freeway or behind the light but I choose my competition carefully and wisely
     
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