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    Re: The Panamera is ugly...


    What you all are forgetting is the Porsche name will have buyers flocking to the showroom to buy this car. As I have stated so many times, Porsche knows its customer base and they know they could put a Porsche badge on a Kia and the customers will buy it.





    You mean the same as any car with a Ferrari badge etc., etc.....

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What you all are forgetting is the Porsche name will have buyers flocking to the showroom to buy this car. As I have stated so many times, Porsche knows its customer base and they know they could put a Porsche badge on a Kia and the customers will buy it.

    It is the way it is and why all other car manufacturers are envious of Porsche.



    Totally agree, But does that mean the brand is clever/cynical? Or the customer base is blind/stupid?

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    What you all are forgetting is the Porsche name will have buyers flocking to the showroom to buy this car. As I have stated so many times, Porsche knows its customer base and they know they could put a Porsche badge on a Kia and the customers will buy it.

    It is the way it is and why all other car manufacturers are envious of Porsche.



    this is true, but then it also means that porsche would rather sacrifice their design language and their place in automotive history in exchange for cash, and even though it is a business im sure that no car manufacturer wants to be remembered for such hiddeous mistakes such as this car.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    racerx said:

    It's a gigantic ugly mess with almost zero camo when gas prices are rising long term. It has NOT changed one bit since it made its first appearance.



    its very interesting that you should say this, because think about it... the project has been under development for quite some time now, and as we all know test mules always change and evolve. What if what we are looking is not a camo panamera, what if it is indeed a complete test mule??

    Porsche could have chosen one of the preliminary design propositions for the panamera and just build a complete mockup for the car. after all the only changes that we have seen on the car is a bit of tape and some overlayed panels here and there.

    or it could just be me fooling myself into believing that it wont be THIS UGLY

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Hmmm... Unfortunately I think we are seeing something that is very close to the final product.
    Again, although I don't think that this car is beautiful (by any stretch of the imagination), it has grown on me over the last months.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What you all are forgetting is the Porsche name will have buyers flocking to the showroom to buy this car. As I have stated so many times, Porsche knows its customer base and they know they could put a Porsche badge on a Kia and the customers will buy it.

    It is the way it is and why all other car manufacturers are envious of Porsche.



    Totally agree, But does that mean the brand is clever/cynical? Or the customer base is blind/stupid?



    I would say both. It takes two to tango, right. Sorry but it's the cold hard truth isn't it..

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    shin said:
    I would say both. It takes two to tango, right. Sorry but it's the cold hard truth isn't it..



    Correct. PAG caters to the poseur not the true enthusiast with these offerings - no question about it.

    Tell you what... it serves to distinguish P-car enthusiasts from the poseurs.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Guys guys guys, to more we say the Panamera is ugly the more people going to believe it. I think we need to get used to the shape (as far as we can see it). I am confident the Panamera is going to be a hit and will make Porsche an even better company. More money to invest in further develop their sports car series IMO.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    Markdsv said:
    Guys guys guys, to more we say the Panamera is ugly the more people going to believe it. I think we need to get used to the shape (as far as we can see it). I am confident the Panamera is going to be a hit and will make Porsche an even better company. More money to invest in further develop their sports car series IMO.



    If people make up their minds solely based on what others say, they deserve what they get... and yes, the Panamera is ugly and that stands, no matter what people say, one way or the other. And yes, the Panamera will be a success because PAG's new customers are fashion/badge robots... and no, WW does not invest enough in sports car development - he knows his nouveau-riche poseur clientele well.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    and yes, the Panamera is ugly and that stands, no matter what people say, one way or the other.



    The Panamera will be another car in the Porsche design ethos. It will be neither beautiful nor ugly but it will have some design elements from other Porsches and it will stand out as something different with Porsche DNA.

    No production Porsche in history has been beautiful in the Italian School sense of the word. Think of the 924 and 928 when they first came out, think of how the very first 911s looked at the time, think of the 959 etc etc. The Cayenne and the Panamera continue this tradition.

    Porsche are not willing to build cars like the Quattroporte or the Scaglietti because these cars are not them.

    However, IMO the Porsche design although not arresting at first grows on people and the cars look good, even better than when they were new, even after many years.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    and yes, the Panamera is ugly and that stands, no matter what people say, one way or the other.



    The Panamera will be another car in the Porsche design ethos. It will be neither beautiful nor ugly but it will have some design elements from other Porsches and it will stand out as something different with Porsche DNA.

    No production Porsche in history has been beautiful in the Italian School sense of the word. Think of the 924 and 928 when they first came out, think of how the very first 911s looked at the time, think of the 959 etc etc. The Cayenne and the Panamera continue this tradition.

    Porsche are not willing to build cars like the Quattroporte or the Scaglietti because these cars are not them.

    However, IMO the Porsche design although not arresting at first grows on people and the cars look good, even better than when they were new, even after many years.



    You are a romantic and re the Panamera/Cayenne you are in denial.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    and yes, the Panamera is ugly and that stands, no matter what people say, one way or the other.



    The Panamera will be another car in the Porsche design ethos. It will be neither beautiful nor ugly but it will have some design elements from other Porsches and it will stand out as something different with Porsche DNA.

    No production Porsche in history has been beautiful in the Italian School sense of the word. Think of the 924 and 928 when they first came out, think of how the very first 911s looked at the time, think of the 959 etc etc. The Cayenne and the Panamera continue this tradition.

    Porsche are not willing to build cars like the Quattroporte or the Scaglietti because these cars are not them.

    However, IMO the Porsche design although not arresting at first grows on people and the cars look good, even better than when they were new, even after many years.



    You are a romantic and re the Panamera/Cayenne you are in denial.



    When a Porsche is released too many people have an opinion because of enthusiast internet forums , dedicated magazines etc. Also because Porsche is a top and successful brand against all odds, even people who will never acquire a Porsche want to express an opinion, usually negative out of spite.

    This doesn't happen with other brands. Did you see a Ferrari or a Mercedes AMG enthusiast compare his car with the Nissan GT-R and complain that the Japanese machine is faster at 20% of the price? Of course not. They enjoy their cars and don't even compare.

    Now coming to the beauty or lack of it of Porsche cars. Which are the truly beautiful cars these days? The BMWs the Mercedes the Jaguars? They are all OK with their own design language but none of them an object of beauty. So are the Cayenne and the future Panamera. They have the Porsche design elements but obviously they are not works of art on wheels.

    The Maseratis can be considered in the "beautiful" category but try using them day in day for say 60,000 kms in a year and come back to talk again!

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    reginos, Aston has set the bar very high, their cars are universally praised for being undeniably beautiful and to see the Rapide next to the Panamera, the Aston has the Porker beat 100% in the looks department.

    The porsche fans are desperately treading water when it comes to defending the Panamera. It may perform great but it will NOT be a car that will be considered beautiful like the modern Astons.

    Perhaps 911s always look classic - but the new cars that Porsche are making will NOT age well. In 20 years the cayenne will be an embarassing footnote in Porsche's history, and the Panamera is headed down that route - unless the camo is doing a REALLY good job.

    We can argue all day about subjective looks. You can't really prove that someone is just defending something because they love the brand... But what we CAN prove is that Porsche has strayed very far from their original "uncompromising" sporting tradition, building SUVs and Sedans- people don't buy that type of car because they want it, they do it because they need to carry cargo/family therefore the entire concept is a giant compromise on a sportscar concept.

    All the while...companies like Maserati/Aston have stayed true to their Gran Turismo Spirit - and are becoming serious alternatives to Porsche.

    Keep in mind that many of us here criticizing Porsche have owned one or more... We are not children playing top trumps - undeniably, many of us have been turned away from Porsche because their cars no longer "do it" for us, we dont like the direction the company is headed, and most importantly, other companies have created seriously good alternatives.

    For me personally, I don't want to drive a car that is becoming ubiquitous in places I frequent, from a company that is becoming a mass manufacturer of suvs and sedans, and lost touch with it's core clientelle.

    The passion and exclusivity are gone. The handful of GT3/GT3RS/GT2 that are produced cannot excuse the Cayenne/Panamera/50 overweight variants of Carreras/Useless special editions (and the poseurs driving them)

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    There is very little camo left on the cars we see. There is still some, and when it comes off, there will be some improvement, but the "overall" shape and design of the car will not change.
    I haven't read of any Porsche fan calling this car "beautiful".
    I think what we are trying to say is that it isn't as bad as some of us are trying to make it out to be.
    I hated this car at first, and now I think it is kind of "interesting" in an odd-ball sort of way. It no longer sets off my gagging instincts as it initially did.
    Should Porsche carry on employing the person responsible for the design?; NO!
    Should Porsche continue to employ the person/s responsible for the approval of the design?; NO!
    Could Porsche have done better?; YES!
    Is the Panamera uglier than the Cayenne? ; NO!

    All of the statements above are subjective! They are my opinion, and my opinion only.
    Some will like the car, other wont.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    reginos said:

    ..... Did you see a Ferrari or a Mercedes AMG enthusiast compare his car with the Nissan GT-R and complain that the Japanese machine is faster at 20% of the price? Of course not. They enjoy their cars and don't even compare.

    ........

    The Maseratis can be considered in the "beautiful" category but try using them day in day for say 60,000 kms in a year and come back to talk again!



    reginos,

    Evidently you don't peruse many Ferrari boards. The California is being flamed left right and centre and there has also been heavy criticism of the styling of other models such as the 360, F430, F599 and 612. A lot of people in the Ferrari community regard the F355 as Pininfarina's last beautiful design and everything since as being poor. As with any enthusiats board there is always going to be passionate debate and styling is very subjective. I've had a deposit down on the Panamera for a couple of years and will wait for the final reveal before deciding to go ahead or not but the 80's look interior is not appealing to me at all at this point and is a major disappointment. As others have said Porshe really does needs to raise it's game in the styling stakes and think about developing a new design language. They managed it in the 70's with the 924 and 928 but seem unwilling to do it again. Simply rehashing the 911 design language is not a great long term plan when other manaufacturers are catching up and even overtaking in the performance and reliability stakes with better looking designs. The Fisker Karma shows how elegant a low volume four seater can be.

    As for the latest range of Maserati's there are more people on Maseratilife praising the reliability of the cars compared to Mercedes that they have owned for example. Apart from clutch issues on the cambiocorsa 3200 and 4200 series cars there don't appear to be huge numbers of common faults.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    As for the latest range of Maserati's there are more people on Maseratilife praising the reliability of the cars compared to Mercedes that they have owned for example. Apart from clutch issues on the cambiocorsa 3200 and 4200 series cars there don't appear to be huge numbers of common faults.



    I am glad you say this about Maserati because IMO they are beautiful cars.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    $.02 : i'm not enamored of the rear of this car. i suspect that the "function" of a _really_ usable rear seat + the hatch make for a bulky theme.

    my thinking on the cayenne was something like "as long as it is a really well executed SUV, technically" then i let the look go a little. it did grow on me.

    maybe if this is a really well done 4 door for drivers and passengers alike i'll think the same thing.

    my wife has been asking about this car (isn't porsche making a 4 door?) for years. i'm sort of waiting to show her these less camo'd cars... :|

    fwiw and all that.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    As the Cayenne is Porsche's biggest selling model whilst being the ugliest car on the road and in an anti 4x4 environment, a prettier saloon would no doubt be a runaway success. The Aston saloon looks more promising.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    As the Cayenne is Porsche's biggest selling model whilst being the ugliest car on the road and in an anti 4x4 environment, a prettier saloon would no doubt be a runaway success. The Aston saloon looks more promising.



    A four door saloon needs adequate space for at least 4 passengers and luggage. Otherwise, there is no point in producing one.

    From what I can gather from various spy photos the Aston will lack in the above areas. Also I presume it will be some 200 kgs heavier than the Panamera. If it so, i.e. less space and more weight the Rapide will end in the "just a pretty face" category!

    In Porsche form always follows function!

    Moreover, although it is difficult to design a beautiful as well as practical SUV, IMO the Cayenne has its own personality and road presence.
    Which SUV is better looking the X5/6, the MLs or the Q7? Not to mention some american monstrosities in the SUV market.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    and yes, the Panamera is ugly and that stands, no matter what people say, one way or the other.



    The Panamera will be another car in the Porsche design ethos. It will be neither beautiful nor ugly but it will have some design elements from other Porsches and it will stand out as something different with Porsche DNA.

    No production Porsche in history has been beautiful in the Italian School sense of the word. Think of the 924 and 928 when they first came out,



    You are a romantic and re the Panamera/Cayenne you are in denial.



    Uninformed is more accurate.

    Reginos, How old are you? What are you talking about? How many years have you been driving Porsche's. When was the first time you walked around a porsche showroom?

    Porsche dna, classic, give me a break. Why don't you go on and on about the 356 or the california spyder? Why 911 911 911 so much. Were you around in Porsche's heyday, when they were the top sportscar manufacturer and the 911 just another model 20+ years before anniversary models?

    (this part no longer directed at reginos)
    So many 911 fanboy's that will accept anything. THE TRADITION with the 911 WAS that it was AIR-COOLED! The looks and the rear engine come from WHAT? It comes from the PEOPLE'S CAR, the VOLKSWAGEN! That's the family history. The 924, that was an audi, the porsche family has ties way back with audi, auto union.

    The 928 was the best looking, best built, best performing porsche built until the CGT. It won european car of the year on its debut! It was praised by the the press and a great sales success for most of it's life. Those who really know cars regard it as one of the most beautiful ever built, me too. It was a clean sheet design by the best generation of porsche engineers ever, at the height of porsche racing success, and it was ferry's favorite and daily driver.

    The CGT also proved Porsche could produce an engineering and design marvel.

    But the Cayenne was a lazy lackluster effort. This generation of Porsche engineers and designers are not as good as their predecessor's.

    It is not the same company, all the people who designed the 917, 956, 962, and 928 are retired or passed, only the badge is the same.

    That's why the panamera looks like it does, this porsche has a different philosophy and much lower capabilities.

    As far as other marques, ISUK, makes a good point. Too many associate a high price tag with beauty or desirability. Most current f-cars are ugly along with a lot of other high priced cars. A lot of threads on these boards exhibit a lot of "gold-digging".

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    the panamera has caused quite a stir down here in the rennteam comunity... take it easy guys

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    Enmanuel said:
    the panamera has caused quite a stir down here in the rennteam comunity... take it easy guys



    All publicity is good publicity as the Americans say

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    a bit off topic, but they should indeed make a new version of the 928.
    theese may be old but still very nice

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    back

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    ________________

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Yes they should have and then kinda reverse engineered the above into a 4-door sedan. Enmanuel, pics 1 and 3 above are the look that even nick said he would buy into porsche again.


    These designs are far superior to this ugly mule, so my question is;

    Why couldn't porsche designers with years of time and the highest technology available do as well as a graphic artist at a magazine?

    That middle pic is a perfect update of the 928 continuing on from an example like this.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    i ask myself the same question racerx, they should be able to come up with amazing things. they have certainly done it before, just look at that 928, its a thing of beauty.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    Quote:
    Enmanuel said:
    i ask myself the same question racerx, they should be able to come up with amazing things. they have certainly done it before, just look at that 928, its a thing of beauty.



    Porsche had the opportunity to come up with a killer design for Panamera. They never had a 4 door in the family so this was their break to really amaze everyone but they decided to come up with something that design wise doesn't stand out.

    As we all say here, although there is still camo covering the car, I really can't see with camo off it'll be improved .

    Will it sale? you bet it will, but I seriously doubt that any die heart Porsche fan would consider one.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    like i said before Ron, i still have a faint hope that what we are looking at is not the actual body of the car but just some full body mockup that porsche is using, because seriously it has not changed one bit during the whole project and that is crazy.

    Re: The Panamera is ugly...

    It's going to be a very attractive car. Looking forward to it a lot. Can't wait to see the shape and graphics of the tail lights.

     
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