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Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage 4.7
The video feature containing the lap times at Silverstone with Vbox overlays will be broadcast from next week. We also ran them all side by side in a drag race to put the performance of Porsche's new PDK gearbox in context.
Without giving away anything, prepare to be impressed with the PDK system (despite the silly steering wheel buttons) but also recognise how quick the GT-R really is. We drove two GT-Rs on the circuit, both of which were un-tampered and running on standard tyres, so are confident they were representative of customer cars. We also ran a new 911 with the DFI engine (but with a manual box) for the past week, so can also attest to the difference made by the PDK box and how 'pessimistic' the 385PS claim for the new Carerra S is.
To really put things in perspective we ran our supercar test at Silverstone last week, comparing Lamborghini's LP560-4 against Ferrari's Scuderia and Porsche's 911 GT2. That will put some well needed context to the lap times set by the GT-R and the other sportscars in this current group test.
The first video will be up next week, with the supercar video thereafter.
Without giving away anything, prepare to be impressed with the PDK system (despite the silly steering wheel buttons) but also recognise how quick the GT-R really is. We drove two GT-Rs on the circuit, both of which were un-tampered and running on standard tyres, so are confident they were representative of customer cars. We also ran a new 911 with the DFI engine (but with a manual box) for the past week, so can also attest to the difference made by the PDK box and how 'pessimistic' the 385PS claim for the new Carerra S is.
To really put things in perspective we ran our supercar test at Silverstone last week, comparing Lamborghini's LP560-4 against Ferrari's Scuderia and Porsche's 911 GT2. That will put some well needed context to the lap times set by the GT-R and the other sportscars in this current group test.
The first video will be up next week, with the supercar video thereafter.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
We regularly tease Datsun (I mean Nissan) about the first point and I would also agree with you on the latter, although it looks better in darker colours (i.e. black). But sadly I cannot agree with you about it not being quick or fun.
It's a strange car the GT-R, we've driven it thousands of miles and it's the real deal.
My criticism of the GT-R was akin to nit-picking, but here you go..
1) the leather inside is not of the same quality as a proper luxury car, especially the thin shiny leather on the steering wheel
2) the ride quality is poor, not that it crashes over bumps because it doesn't, but it doesn't cosset either. You can hear the sound of stones pinging inside the wheel arches and it sounds like there is very little sound-proofing, so it doesn't feel luxurious.
But its strengths outweigh its weaknesses (if you can call them that). It feels like it weighs less than the 911, despite actually weighing considerably more. It was the most stable and the least prone to roll out of all the cars on test and its lap time on the circuit beggars belief.
In fact I am sure that when we publish its lap-time we will be accused of somehow fixing it, but we double-checked by taking an owners car...which then went even faster.
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
You'll be pleased to know that when we drove them all hundreds of miles cross-country there was nothing really in it, each were able to maintain a stunning pace and the 911 had little problem keeping up with the GT-R.
It's a strange car the GT-R, we've driven it thousands of miles and it's the real deal.
My criticism of the GT-R was akin to nit-picking, but here you go..
1) the leather inside is not of the same quality as a proper luxury car, especially the thin shiny leather on the steering wheel
2) the ride quality is poor, not that it crashes over bumps because it doesn't, but it doesn't cosset either. You can hear the sound of stones pinging inside the wheel arches and it sounds like there is very little sound-proofing, so it doesn't feel luxurious.
But its strengths outweigh its weaknesses (if you can call them that). It feels like it weighs less than the 911, despite actually weighing considerably more. It was the most stable and the least prone to roll out of all the cars on test and its lap time on the circuit beggars belief.
In fact I am sure that when we publish its lap-time we will be accused of somehow fixing it, but we double-checked by taking an owners car...which then went even faster.
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
You'll be pleased to know that when we drove them all hundreds of miles cross-country there was nothing really in it, each were able to maintain a stunning pace and the 911 had little problem keeping up with the GT-R.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
SteveD said:
We regularly tease Datsun (I mean Nissan) about the first point and I would also agree with you on the latter, although it looks better in darker colours (i.e. black). But sadly I cannot agree with you about it not being quick or fun.
It's a strange car the GT-R, we've driven it thousands of miles and it's the real deal.
My criticism of the GT-R was akin to nit-picking, but here you go..
1) the leather inside is not of the same quality as a proper luxury car, especially the thin shiny leather on the steering wheel
2) the ride quality is poor, not that it crashes over bumps because it doesn't, but it doesn't cosset either. You can hear the sound of stones pinging inside the wheel arches and it sounds like there is very little sound-proofing, so it doesn't feel luxurious.
But its strengths outweigh its weaknesses (if you can call them that). It feels like it weighs less than the 911, despite actually weighing considerably more. It was the most stable and the least prone to roll out of all the cars on test and its lap time on the circuit beggars belief.
In fact I am sure that when we publish its lap-time we will be accused of somehow fixing it, but we double-checked by taking an owners car...which then went even faster.
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
You'll be pleased to know that when we drove them all hundreds of miles cross-country there was nothing really in it, each were able to maintain a stunning pace and the 911 had little problem keeping up with the GT-R.
Thanks Steve, I like the way you put things down. To the point and no bulls**t.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
SteveD said:
We regularly tease Datsun (I mean Nissan) about the first point and I would also agree with you on the latter, although it looks better in darker colours (i.e. black). But sadly I cannot agree with you about it not being quick or fun.
It's a strange car the GT-R, we've driven it thousands of miles and it's the real deal.
My criticism of the GT-R was akin to nit-picking, but here you go..
1) the leather inside is not of the same quality as a proper luxury car, especially the thin shiny leather on the steering wheel
2) the ride quality is poor, not that it crashes over bumps because it doesn't, but it doesn't cosset either. You can hear the sound of stones pinging inside the wheel arches and it sounds like there is very little sound-proofing, so it doesn't feel luxurious.
But its strengths outweigh its weaknesses (if you can call them that). It feels like it weighs less than the 911, despite actually weighing considerably more. It was the most stable and the least prone to roll out of all the cars on test and its lap time on the circuit beggars belief.
In fact I am sure that when we publish its lap-time we will be accused of somehow fixing it, but we double-checked by taking an owners car...which then went even faster.
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
You'll be pleased to know that when we drove them all hundreds of miles cross-country there was nothing really in it, each were able to maintain a stunning pace and the 911 had little problem keeping up with the GT-R.
I was just paraphrasing the GTR bashers to save them the trouble (and highlight their denial of reality). I actually think the GTR is car of the year and agree with JC. It is the new yardstick.
And yes it is wonderful that we have such a great selection of cars available today.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
SteveD said:
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
What did you think of the Aston then?
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
In fact I am sure that when we publish its lap-time we will be accused of somehow fixing it, but we double-checked by taking an owners car...which then went even faster.
+++ You will be accused of fixing the times, testing a Ringer with 600 bhp and of being poor drivers. The denial of the GTR's outstanding performance is becoming comical.
+++ You will be accused of fixing the times, testing a Ringer with 600 bhp and of being poor drivers. The denial of the GTR's outstanding performance is becoming comical.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
moto said:Quote:
SteveD said:
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
What did you think of the Aston then?
I drove it at Milbrook recently, it's actually very good.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
moto said:Quote:
SteveD said:
Out of the four cars in this test I would have happily chosen either the 911, R8 or GT-R, they were all pretty much beyond reproach. The standards are now so high that you can't loose.
What did you think of the Aston then?
I really did not get on with the Aston. I chose to drive the Aston back from South Wales to my home 200 miles away and I didn't enjoy it at all.
When the cars were first delivered to our office it was the Aston I most desired, but driving it was a very different experience. The seats left me with bum-ache, the exhaust sound became silly (it's loud, comically so) and I found the sports-shift gearbox antiquated - the SMG gearbox on my M3 CSL feels so much more capable (far less the double-clutch boxes on the Porsche and Nissan).
The new 4.7 litre engine is powerful, but it needs revs. By revving it you place more demands on the chassis and in my view it still behaves as if the front and rear axles were set up by different chassis engineers. It's also quite soft, despite the sports suspension. I wanted to drive the Aston sedately, but the engine and gearbox conspired against this. It just felt unsorted when compared with the others and not in the same class. It's a shame since it looks great, but it feels like it has been designed to fulfil the interest of brand advocates rather than discerning car enthusiasts.
I drove the Vantage N400 on a circuit last Christmas, fitted with a manual box and it was much, much better. I really don't understand why Aston didn't apply the lessons from the N400 into this latest V8 4.7.
There's a good car in there somewhere, but it needs more work.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
thuggy said:
I have no doubt that the GTR is quick. I just cant understand how a car that does the ring in 7:50 can keep up with a car that can do it in 7:29...
I cannot comment on the 'ring time since I haven't driven a GT-R on that circuit, but the reason why it laps a circuit so quickly when compared to other (faster) cars appears to be due to the following;
- you can carry a lot of speed into a corner and apply the throttle before the apex, more so than most any car on the market
- it is genuinely quick in a straight line, although not as quick as a GT2 for example.
- it is very stable which makes it much easier to drive it on (or over) its mechanical limits.
Put simply it maximises the performance it delivers more effectively than much more expensive and quicker cars. Rather than feeling like a 1800kg car, it feels more like 1400 kg. It doesn't carry out the driving for you, but it eliminates much of the difficulty in driving a 500bhp car and makes it no more difficult than handling a 300bhp car.
I am certain that the traditional sports car manufacturers are working hard to find ways of learning from the GT-R, since rather than Nissan competing against Porsche/Audi/BMW in the traditional way it has focused more on achieving performance more efficiently than anyone else. That's great news as far as I am concerned, since it can only mean that we will end up with better cars from all of them.
We will try and get the Vbox telemetry up next week and you can analyse the reasons for yourself.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
The fact that we are talking about a car thats comfortably 30K cheaper than others tested is the real yardstick. Previously you paid the price for performance and exclusivity. Now it would appear price will only satisfy corporate margins and snobbery.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
Nidge said:
The fact that we are talking about a car thats comfortably 30K cheaper than others tested is the real yardstick. Previously you paid the price for performance and exclusivity. Now it would appear price will only satisfy corporate margins and snobbery.
It would seem that the chassis setup of the GT-R is amazing. Now let's see what the euro manufacturers can do to counter it.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
WAY said:
Am I the only to get blank pages after page 9?
I would love to know what your Adobe Flash settings are, since I can never recreate this problem. If you have a moment please send them to me at steve@drivers-republic.com. Just right-click on the magazine page, select 'settings' and then tell me how much local storage you have set aside.
We have had a few problems with these Flash based magazine platforms so we have decided to move to an HTML format that should make it more usable on every browser. The added benefit is that the magazine features will also be available to read on iPod/iPhones. This should be in place in the next fortnight.
Aug 10, 2008 3:55:47 PM
- SteveD
- Co-Pilot
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- Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom
- Posts: 247, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 18, 2003
- Reply to: PinKchampagnE
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Someone asked me which of the cars would I have kept from this group test, which is probably the acid-test of such a comparison.
Well as already mentioned it would not have been the Aston. I have since driven a few thousand miles in the non-PDK 997.2 and I would prefer the manual 997 to this PDK version since I find the PDK interface frustrating.
I would have taken the GT-R home with me, but that's more because I would like to spend even more time with it.
Ultimately though I enjoyed the R8 most, but if a manual 997 C2S had been available then I might have chosen this instead.
The GT-R probably isn't ultimately my kind of car, it's great to drive but it does not render 911s or R8s redundant, especially the new 911 which is as quick in a straight line as the 997 GT3..
Well as already mentioned it would not have been the Aston. I have since driven a few thousand miles in the non-PDK 997.2 and I would prefer the manual 997 to this PDK version since I find the PDK interface frustrating.
I would have taken the GT-R home with me, but that's more because I would like to spend even more time with it.
Ultimately though I enjoyed the R8 most, but if a manual 997 C2S had been available then I might have chosen this instead.
The GT-R probably isn't ultimately my kind of car, it's great to drive but it does not render 911s or R8s redundant, especially the new 911 which is as quick in a straight line as the 997 GT3..
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
SteveD said:
Someone asked me which of the cars would I have kept from this group test, which is probably the acid-test of such a comparison.
Well as already mentioned it would not have been the Aston. I have since driven a few thousand miles in the non-PDK 997.2 and I would prefer the manual 997 to this PDK version since I find the PDK interface frustrating.
I would have taken the GT-R home with me, but that's more because I would like to spend even more time with it.
Ultimately though I enjoyed the R8 most, but if a manual 997 C2S had been available then I might have chosen this instead.
The GT-R probably isn't ultimately my kind of car, it's great to drive but it does not render 911s or R8s redundant, especially the new 911 which is as quick in a straight line as the 997 GT3..
Steve, you like some other auto journalists complain about the PDK interface. IMO this is the outcome of your exposure to many cars even during the same day during a group test. If say 4 cars in a group test have type A interface, the one with type B would be harder to adjust to.
However, if an individual buys a car to use every day for many thousands of miles, IMO he would easily adjust to whatever interface. It is the same with numerous gadgets and other appliances we use daily that after a short time their operation becomes second nature.
So please, stop this PDK interface moaning, because you distort the picture and do no favours to your mental ability to adapt to very simple biomechanical actions.
I've test driven the PDK extensively and after 10-15 minutes I had no problems to adjust and utilise the technology and enjoy the drive.
So all this negativity makes me suspect that it is a case of looking for a blemish in something excellent, because on principle nothing can be 100% perfect.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
Steve, you like some other auto journalists complain about the PDK interface. IMO this is the outcome of your exposure to many cars even during the same day during a group test. If say 4 cars in a group test have type A interface, the one with type B would be harder to adjust to.
However, if an individual buys a car to use every day for many thousands of miles, IMO he would easily adjust to whatever interface. It is the same with numerous gadgets and other appliances we use daily that after a short time their operation becomes second nature.
So please, stop this PDK interface moaning, because you distort the picture and do no favours to your mental ability to adapt to very simple biomechanical actions.
I've test driven the PDK extensively and after 10-15 minutes I had no problems to adjust and utilise the technology and enjoy the drive.
So all this negativity makes me suspect that it is a case of looking for a blemish in something excellent, because on principle nothing can be 100% perfect.
Firstly I am not a journalist, I own a publishing company that produces auto reviews.
Anything can be adapted to provided you spend long-enough focusing on it, and provided you don't also use a similar mechanical interface that works in the opposite manner.
I own two cars (an M3 CSL and X6) both of which select gears by pulling for UP and pushing for DOWN. I have driven this way for just over 6 years now, and a drivers ability to adapt will depend on what they are used to. Also many of us have raced cars fitted with sequential gearboxes, and they all work on this principal (namely pull for UP and push for DOWN).
Given how universal this method of driver interface has been, you've got to question why it was necessary to deploy an unfamiliar method since the whole point of a man-machine interface is for it to be 'intuitive'. Unless of course it is clearly better, which in my experience it isn't.
So, yes you could learn the new PDK system, but why should you have to? If it 'aint broke...
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
SteveD said:Quote:
Steve, you like some other auto journalists complain about the PDK interface. IMO this is the outcome of your exposure to many cars even during the same day during a group test. If say 4 cars in a group test have type A interface, the one with type B would be harder to adjust to.
However, if an individual buys a car to use every day for many thousands of miles, IMO he would easily adjust to whatever interface. It is the same with numerous gadgets and other appliances we use daily that after a short time their operation becomes second nature.
So please, stop this PDK interface moaning, because you distort the picture and do no favours to your mental ability to adapt to very simple biomechanical actions.
I've test driven the PDK extensively and after 10-15 minutes I had no problems to adjust and utilise the technology and enjoy the drive.
So all this negativity makes me suspect that it is a case of looking for a blemish in something excellent, because on principle nothing can be 100% perfect.
Firstly I am not a journalist, I own a publishing company that produces auto reviews.
Anything can be adapted to provided you spend long-enough focusing on it, and provided you don't also use a similar mechanical interface that works in the opposite manner.
I own two cars (an M3 CSL and X6) both of which select gears by pulling for UP and pushing for DOWN. I have driven this way for just over 6 years now, and a drivers ability to adapt will depend on what they are used to. Also many of us have raced cars fitted with sequential gearboxes, and they all work on this principal (namely pull for UP and push for DOWN).
Given how universal this method of driver interface has been, you've got to question why it was necessary to deploy an unfamiliar method since the whole point of a man-machine interface is for it to be 'intuitive'. Unless of course it is clearly better, which in my experience it isn't.
So, yes you could learn the new PDK system, but why should you have to? If it 'aint broke...
Thanks for you reply and sorry I mistook you for an auto journalist
So basically we agree. Nothing inherently wrong with the Porsche system, just a matter of habit and how quicky the brain of different people adapts. I for example, drive a city car as my daily driver, that push is UP and pull is DOWN but if I were lucky to own an M3 CSL myself, I wouldn't rubbish the BMW system because of the interface and would have no problem at all to adapt and enjoy this excellent car.
The way you expressed your position above is fair IMO, but unfortunately most journalists and reviewers because of their acquired habits as far as the interface is concerned, comment on the system in a biased way and create the wrong impressions to a large number of readers who are not prone to question what is written.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
I can no longer be rational about the CSL, it's like a family pet. I have owned it since new 5 years ago and the driving experience remains unique even to this day. It's not the best car ever, but its delivered more smiles than any car I've owned.
I had an Audi B7 RS4 up until a few months ago and I would choose a GT-R over the RS4.
I had an Audi B7 RS4 up until a few months ago and I would choose a GT-R over the RS4.
Re: [DR] GT-R v 911 PDK v Audi R8 v Aston Vantage
Quote:
Gnil said:Quote:
SteveD said:
Try increasing your local storage settings from 100kb to 1MB, and make sure 'enable hardware acceleration' is selected.
I did the changes , but I still can't get past page 9
Me too
It happens with another on-line magazine that uses the same system.
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