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    Jul 15, 2008 12:21:05 AM

    Nugget
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    Nugget
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:That's what statistics are for. One's personal experience is often not large enough to approach "the truth".



    You know... if you're going to chide us all for being swayed by anecdotes and not relying on statistics then it would be a lot more compelling if you... oh, I dunno... included some actual statistics to back up your assertions.

    I know you're confident that your opinion makes good sense but lets not confuse that with statistics. Let's see some numbers or you're just as guilty as the rest of us.

    Personally I think it's a colossal waste of time to worry about an engine that nobody's seen yet. We can burn that bridge when we come to it.

    Jul 15, 2008 2:22:12 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Nugget

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    We can burn that bridge when we come to it.



    LOL Funny! Good one.

    Jul 15, 2008 12:53:31 PM

    mawyatt
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    mawyatt
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Just a thought...

    Even Porsche has some issues with totally new engines. Remember the intro of the liquid cooled engine for the Boxster and 996 and the problems they had early on.

    Mike

    Jul 16, 2008 4:23:31 AM

    Silver Bullet
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    Reply to: Nugget

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:That's what statistics are for. One's personal experience is often not large enough to approach "the truth".



    You know... if you're going to chide us all for being swayed by anecdotes and not relying on statistics then it would be a lot more compelling if you... oh, I dunno... included some actual statistics to back up your assertions.

    I know you're confident that your opinion makes good sense but lets not confuse that with statistics. Let's see some numbers or you're just as guilty as the rest of us.

    Personally I think it's a colossal waste of time to worry about an engine that nobody's seen yet. We can burn that bridge when we come to it.



    All you have to do is open Consumer Reports and look at the reliability ratings by year for most car models to see this in action.

    Or ask your local Porsche master technician what he thinks of the first year Cayennes (while that's not exactly statistics, his experience will go far beyond a single consumer's, and would represent the results of a larger sample).

    Two more words: Vioxx (among the first of a new class of medications touted to be "wonder dugs") and Vista (no more need be said).

    I completely agree with you about the time and effort wasted speculating about the new engine. There are a lot of biased opinions in this thread, and the best thing is to just wait and see. Nevertheless, I still think its most prudent to avoid the first year of any highly engineered and complex item if possible.

    Jul 16, 2008 1:30:53 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Nevertheless, I still think its most prudent to avoid the first year of any highly engineered and complex item if possible.



    Yup. OTOH, Porsche supposedly was very responsible about "making good" early Boxster engine failures. Make you wonder though how many guys suffered such failures, never got them adequately fixed and subsequently just dropped out of sight.

    I think that's what happened with a lot of guys with the new 2006 997 _S_ engine and the uneven sooty exhaust problem.

    Jul 16, 2008 2:22:05 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Nevertheless, I still think its most prudent to avoid the first year of any highly engineered and complex item if possible.



    Yup. OTOH, Porsche supposedly was very responsible about "making good" early Boxster engine failures. Make you wonder though how many guys suffered such failures, never got them adequately fixed and subsequently just dropped out of sight.

    I think that's what happened with a lot of guys with the new 2006 997 _S_ engine and the uneven sooty exhaust problem.



    What happened with the MY2006 997? Did this also affect the first year, 2005?

    Jul 16, 2008 2:32:38 PM

    Alex_997TT
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    Alex_997TT
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Was talking with the technical director of a large Porsche specialist garage here in the UK today (Manthey reseller) who knows his stuff when it comes to Porsches.

    Apparently he was invited to a Porsche presentation a week or so ago and given access to the new MY97 DFI engines. He got to do all the Q&A with Porsche engineers who knew everything about the new engines and the rest of the car. As someone who has been tuning Porsches for over 30 years he knew all the right questions to grill them on.

    Anyway, I started telling him all the concerns we at RT have over changing from the GT1 block and he said he was extremely impressed with how strong and innovative the new engine was. Apparently the N/A 3.8L version is being rained in on the power as otherwise it would be stepping on GT3 power levels.

    So he didn't think there would be any problems with tuning passed the stock 500bhp the FL will come with.

    I also chatted with him on the dry sump issue and he thinks Porsche will come out with a full dry sump version shortly so that it can then be used fully in racing.

    With regards to PDK only handling 700Nm torque he was of the impression that 'good' tuners will have no problems ramping this up passed 900Nm when required.

    Lastly I mentioned that new Porsche engines have a history of being troublesome for the first couple of years. He agreed but thought that this was DEFINITELY a big step in the right direction and was an revolution in engine design.

    Jul 16, 2008 2:34:21 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    devo said:

    What happened with the MY2006 997? Did this also affect the first year, 2005?



    If you mean the uneven soot from exhaust it only occurred with the 3.8 _S_ engine in it's early versions (MY 2006, or sept 2005 was it's introduction?). AFAIK Porsche had to replace these engines after owners complained loudly enough. Yes, sounds absurd but it's unclear exactly what the outcome was. My point: early Boxster cylinder slip notwithstanding, new engine problems are solved either by eventual replacement or a convenient long process of attrition or "forgetting."

    Here's what uneven soot problem looks like:

    Jul 16, 2008 4:23:57 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    devo said:

    What happened with the MY2006 997? Did this also affect the first year, 2005?



    If you mean the uneven soot from exhaust it only occurred with the 3.8 _S_ engine in it's early versions (MY 2006, or sept 2005 was it's introduction?). AFAIK Porsche had to replace these engines after owners complained loudly enough. Yes, sounds absurd but it's unclear exactly what the outcome was. My point: early Boxster cylinder slip notwithstanding, new engine problems are solved either by eventual replacement or a convenient long process of attrition or "forgetting."

    Here's what uneven soot problem looks like:



    Oh, interesting. Fortunately, my 2005 did not have this symptom. BTW, the 997 debuted Sept 2004, as a MY2005.

    Jul 16, 2008 4:37:09 PM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Vioxx is an interesting point. A very effective medicine was taken away from us for basically nothing but media hype

    Jul 16, 2008 7:14:04 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    devo said:
    BTW, the 997 debuted Sept 2004, as a MY2005.



    Yes of course it did. As I said the MY 2006 _S_ with the 3.8 debuted August 2005. I got mine, one of the first _S_ models to arrive in the USA, in Sept 2005.


    Jul 16, 2008 7:16:55 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    BTW, the 997 debuted Sept 2004, as a MY2005.



    Yes of course it did. As I said the MY 2006 _S_ with the 3.8 debuted August 2005. I got mine, one of the first _S_ models to arrive in the USA, in Sept 2005.






    The 997S also debuted Sept 2004 as a MY2005.

    Jul 16, 2008 7:21:24 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Just a thought, but given all of the opinions regarding first year models, I believe that the same can be said for the 2007-2008 turbo. Although,, it may have the venerable GT1 block, it still was a new product. So, if one were to subscribe entirely to this stay away from the first year runs of anything new, we would basically have to wait until the 2011 or 2012 NA 997 or the 2013 or 2014 new turbo. That's just to long if someone wants new. Not trying to stir things up, just thinking aloud.

    Jul 16, 2008 8:25:45 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Vioxx is an interesting point. A very effective medicine was taken away from us for basically nothing but media hype



    Indeed. Many over-the-counter medicines are as hazardous as the Cox-2's, including Aspirin (hemorrhaging) and Tylenol (liver toxicity), but don't even require a prescription. If Bayer AG attempted to market Aspirin intially in the 21st century, it probably never would have succeeded.

    Jul 16, 2008 9:56:18 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    devo said:

    The 997S also debuted Sept 2004 as a MY2005.



    AWWWWGH!!! You are correct sir. Sorry for the brain freeze. I can't even explain how that stuck in my head. No wait..., you said the 997 (non-S) debuted in 2004 which is correct too. Anyway..., you're right on both accounts. My mistake.

    Jul 17, 2008 1:07:14 AM

    TT Gasman
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    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Vioxx is an interesting point. A very effective medicine was taken away from us for basically nothing but media hype


    Same thing with aprotinin in the heart room.

    Jul 17, 2008 2:42:51 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: TT Gasman

    Re: Just a thought...

    Just saw on rennlist where autoblog(?) is reporting that the new gt3 will share the DI carrera engine with the TT. End of an era gents.
    C

    Jul 17, 2008 3:06:57 PM

    GT Offline
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Just a thought...

    I feel cheated already.. If GT2 gets it as well then that not very good news I am afraid for existing owners.

    Jul 17, 2008 4:00:13 PM

    Alex_997TT
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    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
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    Reply to: GT

    Re: Just a thought...

    why not good news for existing owners?

    Aug 1, 2008 4:41:33 PM

    Dan L
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Just a thought...

    Everyone needs to calm down and sit tight. Porsche is making a tough engine for the 911 and it will be installed in all the 911s from the 997.2 to the 997.2 TT. It is a dry sump engine, just like you already have, only using less parts. I applaud their engineering design work. (Ask anyone with a 997 Mark 2 how they check their oil--when the engine is running, just like all the past dry sump engines).

    dan

    Aug 1, 2008 6:36:39 PM

    cibergypsy
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    cibergypsy
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    Reply to: Dan L

    Re: Just a thought...

    So, does the Mk2 997 have an external oil tank? I don't think it does so it is not a traditional dry sump as we know it. But, like someone said already, best sit tight and wait to see what Porsche comes up with. I am seriously thinking selling my 2006 X51 Carrera S and getting a 2005 996 Turbo S instead.

    Aug 1, 2008 9:56:47 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: cibergypsy

    Re: Just a thought...

    Do it cyber, the 996tts is a great package!

    Aug 2, 2008 1:28:08 AM

    GT Offline
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    GT
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Just a thought...

    Not good news for existing owners because our cars will soon have a discontinued engine alltogether! All development from P and tuners will be on the new engine. And whether we like it or not the new engine will be a better engine at the end. Tuners WILL find a way to make more, or a lot more power in time since evolution is an everlasting game. Maybe it will not be as easy as increasing boost& exhaust etc but we ll soon get serious hp at reasonable cost. And by then my car (with the $$$) I ve spent on it will somehow feel dated..
    Rant over.. (I was just hoping the GT2 at least would keep the gt1 block..)

    Aug 2, 2008 2:33:29 AM

    LoranTw
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    Reply to: GT

    Re: Just a thought...

    It may be possible that we do indeed have a very coveted engine all things considered, inspite of the advancements inherent in the new design. The emphasis these days is more on carbon emission reduction than on performance enhancement. I may be completely wrong but I am glad to have bought when I did. The initial iteration of the 997 turbo has a block that links history in a tangible way to the here and now. With an ECU mod I can't imagine a more capable machine. It still has a connection to the past and an illustrious one at that. Will it likely prove to be obsolute...perhaps. Will I find myself wanting anytime soon...doubtful. The tuners have done enough work on my car to keep me busy for quite sometime...and personally that works quite well for me. I don't think it will be outclassed anytime soon. And if it does in the future I expect to be far to old to realize it's potential anyway.
    The existing GT1 is far from being put to pasture, atleast thats my view.

    Aug 2, 2008 2:44:40 AM

    TT Gasman
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    Reply to: LoranTw

    Re: Just a thought...

    There ain't nothing wrong with that wet sump m96-7/9A1 engine, don't worry about it....

    Aug 11, 2008 4:31:48 AM

    LAT
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    Reply to: TT Gasman

    Re: Just a thought...

    Hot off the press

    Just back from Road America ALMS and the following from Weissach and PCNA engineers at Porscheplatz where we had unveiling of the new DFI engine for Penskes RS Spyders.

    Porsche was able to increase power by 5% torque by 4% and fuel economy by 5%, quite an accomplishment in all areas.

    The update regarding the GT1 is that 2009 is the last year for this motor the new DFI engine in 2010 is all new with no shared parts.

    It was explained that DFI is not a bolt on process every part of the motor has to be revamped for this technology.

    If you value your GT1 as many of us do 2009 will be its swan song.

    I predict that they will become sought after as the 993 Turbos are today.

    Aug 11, 2008 9:49:55 AM

    FrancoisSav
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Well I put my money where my mouth is, took delivery of my 997TT with LSD/ PCAB/ Sport pack early July and from what I read in all the forums seems it was the best idea.
    Next step now is to finish the running in and change the exhaust

    Aug 11, 2008 1:12:28 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: LAT

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    LAT said:
    Hot off the press

    Just back from Road America ALMS and the following from Weissach and PCNA engineers at Porscheplatz where we had unveiling of the new DFI engine for Penskes RS Spyders.

    Porsche was able to increase power by 5% torque by 4% and fuel economy by 5%, quite an accomplishment in all areas.

    The update regarding the GT1 is that 2009 is the last year for this motor the new DFI engine in 2010 is all new with no shared parts.

    It was explained that DFI is not a bolt on process every part of the motor has to be revamped for this technology.

    If you value your GT1 as many of us do 2009 will be its swan song.

    I predict that they will become sought after as the 993 Turbos are today.



    I have a difficult time believing that the current GT1 will be nearly as sought after as the 993. I hope that whomever buys and or owns the current 997tt does realize a nice residual, but to think that it will have 993 type residuals is a far cry, imo. Imagine, if (and likely when) the next generation tt engine proves itself, the current one will become another used turbo; which is fine becuase it's a TURBO. To me any 911 turbo is a marvel, but you know what I'm saying. For the record, I am not trying to offend anyone and hope that I have not. Maybe, the future will prove me wrong. I guess we'll see.

    Aug 12, 2008 1:42:51 AM

    LAT
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Just a thought...

    What I was implying is that 997TT GT2 GT3 will be the last of the durable and tuneables engines because of the complexity of the DFI and possible weakness of the new motor. Even if the new motor is as strong or stronger we may have new challenges.

    It was explained at the same event that Port Injection has a timing window of 10ms and DFI 1ms. If this means that the accuracy in mapping is going to be 10X as critical as our current motors. It will probably be a nightmare for tuners and a plus for Porsche.

    Leaving the 997 series GT1 as the choice for time to come.

    Aug 12, 2008 1:48:10 AM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: LAT

    Re: Just a thought...

    I don't mind Porsche locking the ECU, it was good till it lasted, but playing with the ECU shouldn't really be allowed

    But hopefully this will push Porsche to provide a little more HP on the next TT, and also to deliver the GT2 in decent numbers especially in the US, unlike the current version...
     
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