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    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT,

    That's exactly what I was told by Tarett and the tuner shop that I ordered them from. I'm not sure if they've since then updated their offerings to include the 997TT version. The one they had before on their website fits fine in the rear but the ones in the front are slightly different. Did you make sure to order the correct versions?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Isn't this the same thing as the droplinks I had installed?

    Or are those rear toe links for something else entirely? The droplinks I have are for the sway bars. Where do those toe links attach to?



    Hello Jason,

    See enclosed picture. No, the Rear Toe Control Arm is not the same as the Drop Link. It does not connect to the sway bar. It goes from chassis to the actual wheel carrier. Following is what I know, hope it helps:

    1. Rear Toe Control Arm: Direct link to the wheel carrier. A true link of the "multi-link" suspension. You could actually see this in the rear fairly easily as it is close to the ground. This is the one that the tuners tell me I should replace, even if I may not "need" it .

    2. Rear Upper Control Arm, aka Dog Bones. Part of the multi link suspension. Some people replace this but it is one that might bring NVH. Higher up and hard to see unless car is lifted. In the picture, you could see this car has its stock upper control arms already replaced by the blue GMG after-market units.

    3. Drop Link: Connect to sway bars. Not a direct link to the wheel carrier. Its effect however is quite "direct" as I am finding out myself!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Directly from Tarrett;
    "In my opinion, the adjustable rear toe link kit is the most cost effective and best improvement you can do to the 996/997 suspension, for track or street use. The rod end in the toe link kit replaces the rubber bushing in the factory toe link. The rubber bushing flexes under accelerating and decelerating, causing toe changes in the rear suspension. These sudden toe changes make the car very unstable. You will notice a significant improvement in stability, without any increase in noise or vibration. I also have a locking plate kit that replaces the factory eccentric adjuster for the toe link. The factory adjuster is commonly known to slip under heavy loading, resulting in needing to realign the rear suspension toe. The locking plate can only be used on cars with adjustable toe link kits, and is relatively cheap insurance to eliminate the chances of the eccentrics slipping. The swaybars, PSS10's, and toe links are main improvements you can do. Anything else would be mainly for track applications."

    Just ordered them and will hopefully be able to try them sometime in august together with my new dymags. Unfortunately the 3rd (and very exciting!) mod I had in mind, the new GT2 seats that I had ordered won't be available anytime soon..



    GT,

    Did you order the one with Bump Steer? And the locking plate too? http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/locking-plate-kit-996-993-t-link-lkplt01-detail.htm

    Either way, I look forward to reading your impression. Please post.

    Isn't it so wonderful to own a Porsche? So many toys, so little time! The strange thing is, my baby is now perfect for me, as is, and yet I am still itching...



    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I have the gmg springs, sways, toe links, dog bones, thrust bushings and porsche motorsports cup trailing arms. All being done at Farnbacher-Loles in August. Can't freakin wait!
    Then 4 days at the glen to test 'em!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Directly from Tarrett;
    "In my opinion, the adjustable rear toe link kit is the most cost effective and best improvement you can do to the 996/997 suspension, for track or street use.



    Just had a chat with Chris from Center of Gravity here in the UK. He will be doing my Bilstein fitting, and then some.

    He mentioned that you should do suspensions changes in stages:

    1. Fit Damptronics
    2. Fit GT3 roll bars and some slightly longer than normal drop links.
    3. Fit Porsche Cup (or Tarrett) rear toe bars

    He's given me a great price, so I have just got to set some dates when I get back from Europe honeymoon

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I'm just going with the Champion/H&R springs and a Gt3 alignment.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hello Doug,

    Congrats. This would be the route towards the Champion Werks K1 Turbo that got the spectacular better-than-GT3RS review from Excellence Magazine. I read that article so many times, trying to decipher the various links they were using, what on earth they are, what they look like, what they do, etc. "Back then" LOL everything was so confusing.

    You are not going to install sway bar? Champion uses H&R sway bar (plus rear toe link) in that car.

    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    I'm just going with the Champion/H&R springs and a Gt3 alignment.


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex, this is exactly what I did, damptronic, GT3 sways, alignment and now the rear toe link.
    One caviat, my tuner insists that the gt3 sways are not ideal for the turbo since the front bar is too thick for the 4wd tt.. He also thinks that the bilsteins are a bit too soft so they change the front springs and also the valves of the shocks.I don't know the effect of these as I have not driven their car..
    In anycase I am going to be installing those toe links with bumpstop and locking plates very soon and I am curious as to what the difference will be..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Apparently the Porsche Cup rear toe links will help with straight line speed stability

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Over the weekend I participated in an event organized by Road & Track which allows me to drive 6 cars in succession: Lambo Gallardo, Ferrari F430, Ford GT40, Porsche Stock Turbo, Corvette Z06, and Dodge Viper.

    I had deliberately set up the drive to follow my major recent mods, Bilstein suspension, GMG sway bar, and Cargraphic exhaust change. The goal is dual: One, to "calibrate" my modded car against a stock Turbo in order to confirm the changes are beneficial, and two, to compare it against other world class sports cars.

    I was lucky to have probably the best rotation out of all the 5 pair of drivers. For example, the worst part of the drive, a stretch of heavy traffic road, I happened to be in the worst car of the bunch, Dodge Viper. The best part, winding canyon road, was spent in the Ferrari and the Ford GT. Max speed was not high, probably about 90 mph at most in a short stretch. I did take the Ferrari and all cars to red line a number of times.

    Lamborghini Gallardo: Best engine of the bunch, with beautifully fast engine response, and enough torque to make me not miss my Turbo at all. Very heavy steering that feels insulated. The howl of this engine exhaust is to die for. The car perhaps feels a tad heavy and just a tad insulated (road feedback could perhaps be a little better).

    Ford GT40: I absolutely LOVE everything about this car. I like the styling inside and out; the thing screams "race car"! Steering is heavier than Porsche Turbo, lighter than Lambo, overall so nicely weighted and with fantastic feedback; this is my favorite of the day. Car feels wonderfully stable going through corners, again the best of all the cars for me. The Ford GT does have some lag in engine response and does lack the nimbleness and agile feel of some of the competitors. It's also very stiff, cumbersome to get in and out, and obviously will not function as a daily driver. The reverse light was on the whole time I was driving the car, a sign of things (reliability, gremlins, etc.) to come? It would not surprise me if the price will go up from here and the car will be a collector item in the future.

    Ferrari F430: Ferrari styling, Ferrari exhaust, what more can I say? (Actually, I slightly prefer the howl of the Lambo, in my mind the very best exhaust note in the business.) Great road/chassis feedback; steering is light like the Turbo. I would probably prefer a lot more torque in this car.

    Stock Turbo: Just my opinions here. As expected, a fast yet sterile experience; lacking "soul." Leans, squats, and dives too much. Steering is loose, better than Corvette and Viper, but still flabby. Vacuum cleaner like exhaust note.

    My amateur and perhaps biased opinion of the Turbo in modded form? (Remember my car has Bilstein, sway, GT3 alignment, Cargraphic exhaust, and PCCB brake.) While some of the above cars are better than the Porsche in some aspects (Lambo engine, Ford corner behavior and steering feel, Ferrari exhaust, etc.), none would be an outright replacement, and none makes me go into shock like that test drive of the GT2 had, BEFORE I upgraded suspension.

    The modded Turbo remains an incomparable daily driver, and scores high points in brake feel (PCCB=best), sitting position & visibility (best), gear box (best, slick like butter), road and chassis feedback (tie for first), steering feel (up there). (Low point: assisted clutch is way too light.) Above all, the heart and soul of this car IMHO remains its engine, it makes the car *feel* fast, furious, and is to me a once-in-a-lifetime must-own experience. My car is stock, without ECU mod, and it already feels like one of the most powerful cars in the group. An ECU chip mod would most likely help this car to lay waste to its competitors.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cannga, this is an amazing review. You have no idea what will happen when you chip the car and then add modded vtgs (or GT2 ones) together with ICs. Then the car goes in a different league altogether when compared to the other cars you drove.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Cannga, this is an amazing review. You have no idea what will happen when you chip the car and then add modded vtgs (or GT2 ones) together with ICs. Then the car goes in a different league altogether when compared to the other cars you drove.



    Thanks, GT. It was an incredibly educational experience for me, and most importantly serves as the "calibrator" for my modded Turbo. A couple of things stood out: one, how good the Ford GT40 is -- so beautiful and so well balanced, and, two, I no longer think the Ferrari F430 is a must-have sports car.

    BTW, are you the same person who posted about using GT3 sway bar in the Turbo way way way back, when the Turbo first came out? When no one was even thinking about modding the suspension? If so, my admiration. You were way ahead of the game.

    Lastly, already in my car, being evaluated: the Tarett Drop Links. http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/996-986-front-drop-link-set-996fdlnk-detail.htm
    Picture is of the stock with its rubber joint, versus Tarett with its metallic ball joint. Very nice, but a tad noisy. I'll have my impression once I get back from vacation.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Yes I had used the GT3 bars on the 996tt as well and they worked very well. I have the tarrett droplinks, did not notice any noise issue really. The car feels a bit stiffer with those, a bit like stiffening the sways a fraction more..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I've received a couple of emails asking about what I've done to my car so far, so below is a brief summary of my first "phase" of modification. The "phases" are my own opinion/concept and obviously not the only way, but... for anyone new to this, I would suggest a similar approach. Add mods in steps so you could evaluate each change along the way and back out when NVH becomes too much.

    The changes of the first phase are conservative, well known, yet enough to totally transform the car; sheep turning into an agile and angry wolf, so to speak. Of note, last weekend I arranged to have a "calibrating" drive to compare my modded Turbo against a stock Turbo. There is now no doubt in my mind about the improvements and the necessity of modding the stock car's suspension.

    Phase 2 are perhaps for the more adventurous. Please remember that each step of the way, you are likely trading handling prowess for ride stiffness and noise; nothing comes free. How far you would like to take it is the beauty of owning a Porsche 911: Up to you!
    There is a Phase 3 obviously (Motons, Rear Upper Control Arms, cup tires, more aggressive alignment settings, etc.), but I'll skip it for now. No plan to go that far.


    Phase 1:
    1. Bilstein PSS10 Coilover with a height drop of 10 mm.
    2. Street GT3 alignment, meaning a change of front camber from -.4 to -1.2.
    3. GMG anti-sway bar, set to middle stiffness (holes) both front and rear.

    Phase 2:
    4. Tarett Drop Link
    5. Rear Toe Control Arm with Bump Steer
    6. More aggressive alignment: front toe out, rear toe in.
    7. Corner balance, once happy with all the changes.


    Below are some reasons why each step is done. Important to know I think. If something is not to your liking, you'll at least know why and what to tell your tuner.

    1. The Bilstein Coilover is the main reason for the car's improvement; you are basically buying Bilstein's concept as to what the Turbo should be like. A drop of at least 10mm, at most 25 mm is recommended (read thread for details why). My tuner didn't measure exact ride height so all I could go by is measuring fender height on my own. My car's mid fender height has dropped about 10-15mm.
    2. To reduce understeer. Negative camber improves grip of the tire in corner-improving its corner performance. As grip of front tires improves relative to rear, understeer is reduced. -1.2 is a conservative change. Note that here, we are keeping the rest of the alignment parameters (toe, camber, caster) the same as stock. Only front camber is being changed.
    3. To reduce body lean; happens to make steering less flabby. The GMG Anti-Sway Bar has 3 stiffness adjustment levels (3 holes) and is supposedly 30 to 70% stiffer than stock. I use the middle holes front and rear and assume that this means 50% stiffer than stock (?). I've tried a different setting --soft front, stiff rear-- to reduce understeer, but did NOT like that at all. So I am back to middle front, middle rear.

    4. To reduce sloppiness in effect of sway bar; necessary for corner balancing. Again, nothing exotic we are doing here; this type of link (length adjustable, with metallic instead of rubber joint) is used in Cup cars and (IIRC) GT3RS. In addition, if you want to corner balance the car, a length adjustable link is needed so that you don't preload the sway bars. I'll post my impression of this change when I come back from vacation.
    5. Rear toe link, as mentioned, more than one tuner has mentioned to me that this is the most cost effective and beneficial mod to the rear suspension, without risk of adding NVH.
    6. To reduce understeer & improve turn-in response. Front toe-out "encourages" the initiation of a turn and therefore improves turn-in response. The disadvantage is the car may wander a bit on straight line cruising. Rear toe-in reduces oversteer.
    My tuner is recommending this as the next step, just a touch toe-out front, a touch toe-in rear. He says the car will feel more aggressive and I will love it.
    7. Perhaps not needed for amateurs and not sure if I could tell its effect. But having it done would make me feel good.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Here is a shot of mine fresh back from Farnbacherloles, had their full tilt stage 2 suspension done...now it rocks!
    I had GMG springs, sways (middle f/r), toe links, bones, thrust bushings f/r, adjustable cup trailing arms...oh and a fresh set of cups to top it off!
    The alignment is basically gt3rs, f -1.5/r-2.0, etc. It really rides well, one of the FL drivers told me it handled better than a new gt2 now after a 'test drive'. If you guys are in the NE head to Farnbacherloles for any major work, 1st class outfit head to toe, this is a porsche racing shop not your average bling tuner!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Chris,

    What did it run you for the Farnbacher Loles work that was done (all of it) ? Also how can you run Cup tires in NY as its your daily driver ? Won't you have a problem in the wet weather ? Why not PS2's ? After a couple of days how does it handle ? Worth the cost ?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    These are the N rated cup tires oem on the gt3rs, they are a slt harder cmpd than old school cups. I've already driven it in the rain, fine(unlike old cups). I have winter tires for October on and about 6 track days in between. Yes, worth it to me.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Looking great Chris. You off to hunt for Gt3's and GTR's?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Yep, I went off the deep end.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Ok, just finished the last two suspension related mods to my car; rear toe link and a set dymag wheels..
    The rear toe link improves substantially the control of the rear axle when for example correcting oversteer etc and gives you extra stability. The downside is that on potholes you can feel the extra stiffness. No other downsides really.
    Now regarding the dymags, I think this is probably the best mod I ve done in my car! Together with the titanium bolts the weight saving of around 4kgs per wheel has made such a dramatic improvement in the handling, braking and accelaration of the car that even my (rather high) expectations were surpassed!
    Trying to describe the difference is not easy but it comes down to this; the car feels substantially lighter in all respects, more like taking 80-100kg off the curb weight. The springs feel (and behave) as if they are considerably stiffer. The steering inputs now happen much more direct. Braking and acceleration are noticeably better. Finally, the car exhibits noticeably less understeer.
    Overall I would say that this mod made my car feel more like a race car than any other mod I ve done. For a relatively heavy car like the turbo I think lighter wheels is a must! This will definately be my first mod for all my future sports cars!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    The sky's the limit with these cars. I cannot imagine a better platform to sustain us junkies

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    One more closer shot....

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Chris,

    Very nice. Thanks for sharing. Is your experience similar to mine: are you grinning from ear to ear?

    So many owners complaining about the "boring" character, so many magazine articles rating the Turbo second best, PAG, are you listening? Why shackling a world class sports car with such wimpy spring rates and gimmicky PASM?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Grinning like a sh%t eatin' possum!
    The car is unbelievable now.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Think I am going to start with:

    - Bilstein Damptronics (ClubSport version)
    - H&R Sways (which come with own drop-links)
    - Tarett toe-links
    - 20mm drop (bit worried about this though with all the speed bumps around me)
    - Re-alignment
    - Corner balance

    Then I will later I look at dog-bones etc.

    Question for Damptonic owners out there: do you still get a choice of soft and hard modes through the PASM button, or do you only then have one setting but PASM still controls it?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex, mine has a 20mm drop no issues at all, even driving in the city daily.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    Alex_997TT said:
    Think I am going to start with:

    - Bilstein Damptronics (ClubSport version)
    - H&R Sways (which come with own drop-links)
    - Tarett toe-links
    - 20mm drop (bit worried about this though with all the speed bumps around me)
    - Re-alignment
    - Corner balance

    Then I will later I look at dog-bones etc.

    Question for Damptonic owners out there: do you still get a choice of soft and hard modes through the PASM button, or do you only then have one setting but PASM still controls it?



    Hi Alex, whats the 'club sport' version?

    On my Bilstein's you still have the soft/hard option.

    n

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    When I started researching Bilstein's I initially went through Cargraphic for info. These are the options they had for Damptronics:

    Quote:

    s.A. CARGA5D598 Sportfahrwerk B16 damptronic, VA+HA 15-35mm CLUBSPORT/ P97 C4 / Turbo 1
    Sportsuspension B16 damptronic, FA+RA 15-35mm CLUBSPORT/
    Only for cars with PASM!

    s.A. CARGA5D581 Sportfahrwerk B16 damptronic, VA 25-35mm, HA 15-35mm / P97 C4 / Turbo 1
    Sportsuspension B16 damptronic, FA 25-35mm, RA 15-35mm /
    Only for cars with PASM!




    And when I asked about the two versions I was told:

    Quote:

    The difference between the Clubsport and non-Clubsport is that the Clubsport is the suspension system concentrated to the fast-road or track day user, where as the non Clubsport is more for the comfort handling. Going for these suspension systems, we would only suggest the Clubsport version.




    The ClubSport version correspond to the following Bilstein parts:

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex,

    Yes, the Bilstein PSS10 *Damptronic* version has soft and hard --Normal and Sport-- modes that are controlled by the inside-cockpit (non Turbo readers, yeah, *COCKPIT* ) button, exactly like stock.

    The nomenclature of different Bilstein Coilover versions is extremely confusing and although I've looked at them many times, I still am not sure I got all the names right. Anyway, following is what I know & there is also the web site http://www.bilstein.com/mistore/ymm_productf.php?company_id=100484:
    There are 2 versions of Bilstein PSS10 for the Porsche Turbo: Damptronic and Non-damptronic. The Damptronic is PASM compatible; it has a wire coming out on top which I assume is connected during installation to make it so. This version behaves exactly like the stock coilover.
    The Non-damptronic PSS10 version is not PASM compatible. AFAIK (i.e. not 100% sure, but should be close) this version comes with a knob that has 10 settings for dampening rate, *without* provision for independent compression and rebound settings (more hard-core coil-over systems have independent settings). While this version allows for more tailoring, my opinion is it should be reserved for very advanced level driver and installer as determining what's best may very well be a mine field.

    Anyway, the picture you posted looks to be the "correct" PASM compatible version that everyone has been using. Not sure that "Club Sport version" is an official Bilstein designation though.

    I do not know that any after-market anti-sway bar, including H&R, comes with the drop-links, are you sure about this? The Bilstein kit DOES come with replacement drop link for the FRONT (*not* REAR) which is a little shorter than stock and is necessary. In other words, you have 2 choices for drop links:
    Front: Bilstein, rear: stock
    Front: Tarett, rear: Tarett

    Quote:
    Alex_997TT said:
    Think I am going to start with:

    - Bilstein Damptronics (ClubSport version)
    - H&R Sways (which come with own drop-links)
    - Tarett toe-links
    - 20mm drop (bit worried about this though with all the speed bumps around me)
    - Re-alignment
    - Corner balance

    Then I will later I look at dog-bones etc.

    Question for Damptonic owners out there: do you still get a choice of soft and hard modes through the PASM button, or do you only then have one setting but PASM still controls it?


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    One note regarding the Bilstein PSS10 2 levels of PASM settings as controlled by the cockpit button. A brief "review" first for those who don't already know (as always, experts please correct me if I am wrong): the coil-over has 2 main components, the spring, and the shock absorber, aka dampener. When you push that PASM button, it is the shock absorber that is being changed, NOT the spring. PASM actuates an internal valve in the shock absorber and causes the dampening rate to change as required (high or low).

    With the stock dampener/shock absorber, the change induced by PASM is extreme. Normal is way too soft (causing car to lean, squat, and dive too much, like a Lexus), and Firm is way too hard, causing a very jittery/nervous ride character and some "bad" things such as tires going airborne when one hits mid corner road bumps at high speed.

    In comparison, the Bilstein's 2 levels of dampening rates are closer to each other. Close enough, compared to the bigger change of the stock system, that some first-time users wonder if there is any difference when one pushes the PASM button! In my case, when I first installed the system, I had to deliberately ran over bumps and listen for the noise to make sure that there is a difference. (Now that I've had it for a few months, I could recognize the difference a little better.)

    On a scale of 1 to 10 for firmness, if Stock Normal is 1, and Stock Firm is 10, then I would say that Bilstein Normal is about 6-7, and Bilstein Firm about 8-9. But please remember the numerical evaluation doesn't even begin to describe how much better the Bilstein feels in managing road bumps, versus Stock FIRM. This difference is night and day in favor of the Bilstein. There is an explanation for this: By using much stiffer spring rate, Bilstein could afford to be conservative with the *dampening* rate. By using such soft spring rate, Porsche stock system has to "go nuts" with its dampening rate in the Firm setting, making it so high and hard (to compensate for the soft spring) that the car practically has no shock absorption ability left to use.

     
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