Crown

blueflame:

Just one more thing for some who are thinking about to buy a GT3 or RS after their „normal“ 911/991:

T vs 991.2 GT3

Insurance: 850€/2.000€

tyre-set: 1.000€/1.700€

service: 700€/1.200€

gas this weekend: GT3 + 40%

So a lot more money for 2 seconds on the track...but worth every cent.

Enclosed a pic of the left front Dunlop-tyre of the GT3 after 450 Km on the track at 35C...(Total 6.000 km).

Too much hot laps without breaks in between...:-(

I drove my Michelins 4s  410 Km on the track (total 6.500km) and they are fine.

Blueflame

 

Hmmmm, my P Zero looked the same, but they had already a couple of track days on the thread...  ... by the way, the comparisons you made match mine exactly, in particular the insurance on the GT3 is a pain compared to non-GT-cars.

Porker:

Really nice, thanks for sharing!

What I do notice, after last trackday at Imola, even with PCCB's my pedal started getting softer by the end of the day. And to this day, my brakes haven't felt the same, the power is there but the pedal travel has become longer and softer. Anyone else noticed that? Maybe it's the brakes bedding in, but I prefered the harder pedal I had before.

You need to check your brake liquid , maybe add some . Ideally change it for racing one . 

I had the same on my steel on the RS . Changed for racing fluid and it became rock hard again . 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS on it's way 

blueflame:

Short report of my first T-trackday at the Hockenheimring on Sunday.

After a early 05:30 start we drove on an empty Autobahn to the ring and reached for the first time top speed.From 280 – 300 Km/h you really need a big empty part of the Autobahn…

The trackday was organised by the „Pistenclub“  - you have to pay 475 EUR for one day with „open pitlane“ – this time just for streetcars, which is much more relaxing.The track never was crowded and you can search for your line and your best times without the pressure of racecars in the neck.

The T is very stable on the race track and very easy to drive fast. We drove the GP-Layout of Hockenheim and the T reached the same laptimes as my old 981 Spyder, but I could drive more laps, because the PCCB brakes showed no fade at all – perfect!!!

The 981 Spyder was a little bit more nervous around the fast righthander before the Mercedes Grandstands – the T is rock solid at this part.

I followed my friend in his 991.2 GT3 and I lost almost 2 seconds per lap – no surprise.

After the lunch break , T (driver, no passenger) with ¼  gastank and the stick GT3 (driver+100Kg passenger) with full tank, the situation changed and I could stay at his rear for some laps - but I had to work harder than my friend in his GT3 ;-)  But it was closer - weight means so much on track!!!

You can have fun with the T on the track and pass almost everything from the other german manufactures, but the home of this car ist the backroad or the alpine pass – so also no surprise here.

In the afternoon, we switched cars – and boy…I love the .2 GT3, the engine with 9.000rpms, sound, no understeer, the grip of the cup tires, the aero downforce, the rock hard brake pedal…what a car.

So you get what you pay for – my T is about 125K€ and my friends GT3 ist about 175K€ - I am not disappointed.

I will enjoy the T for more 1.5 years and then a used GT3 will follow to celebrate my 50th birthday.

Blueflame

 

Thanks   The T is a very tempting car . It would probably be my DD if I decided to sell my 997 S 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS on it's way 

Gnil:

Porker:

Really nice, thanks for sharing!

What I do notice, after last trackday at Imola, even with PCCB's my pedal started getting softer by the end of the day. And to this day, my brakes haven't felt the same, the power is there but the pedal travel has become longer and softer. Anyone else noticed that? Maybe it's the brakes bedding in, but I prefered the harder pedal I had before.

You need to check your brake liquid , maybe add some . Ideally change it for racing one . 

I had the same on my steel on the RS . Changed for racing fluid and it became rock hard again . 

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS on it's way 

 

Just bleeding them a bit should fix it in the short term. Even with racing fluid they need a bit of bleeding from time to time to stay optimal.

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

Thanks for the report and pics, blueflame  If you've caught the track bug and never had a GT3/RS before your plan sounds about right  And once you start to track your GT3 on a regular basis the inflated prices for insurance and tires become a minor element in the greater scheme of things

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

d997h:

 

I envy you a bit on the "T" - I have closed the file for now, but I am still impressed from the little drive I had last week...

Sounds like file closed, but case not closed yet   Do you mind sharing with us what you liked specifically during your "little drive" ? Always interested in real life experiences from long time P-philes and fellow RTers

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

Porsche-Jeck:

d997h:

 

I envy you a bit on the "T" - I have closed the file for now, but I am still impressed from the little drive I had last week...

Sounds like file closed, but case not closed yet   Do you mind sharing with us what you liked specifically during your "little drive" ? Always interested in real life experiences from long time P-philes and fellow RTers

Okay, here we go…my loaner had the usual „Carrera-play-it-safe-specc“, ie. with PDK, sport- and rear seats, etc... still, I am more than IMPRESSED!  ... I make it quick and dirty:

The „T“ just „jumps“ and the strong torque is felt immediately, even in „Normal“ mode, no turbo lag. I did a little distance on the Autobahn (with speeds higher than 250 km/h) and noted that the suspension gives great confidence even at high speeds (the previous 997 always felt a bit light at the front). The rear also felt more planted – in high speed corners, there is no „pumping“ from the rear axle like I had with my 997. Though my Cayman is „just“ 30 bhp short of the „T“, the torque curve of the “T” is felt instantly – I felt like driving a far far more powerful car than the technical comparison would suggest.  Comparing the PDKs in both cars I also felt that the PDK of the “T” in Sport+ doesn’t hammer the gears in place (and my back) anymore as it does in my Cayman. On the more comfort related stuff, my “T” had steering “plus”, which I feel is a tribute to all Beamer DD drivers (like myself), very light at slow speeds, though to me, not Porsche-like, but, what the heck, I would be in a position to live with that. And, last but not least, these door straps … nice to look at, but something to get used to, unless you are angry angry angry and you are in need to pull hard at something…

You are certainly right in commenting on my state of mind (case closed), perhaps the door is not that shut…we will wait and see…

Thanks a lot, d997h for sharing your impressions  Sometimes quick and dirty is better because it's straight to the point  Fully agree with your observations - especially your comparison with the 997: 991.2 is much more planted at highspeed corners but luckily not at the expense of driver involvement/feedback  Actually with the T I re-gained a bit the joy of Autobahn driving (which I somewhat lost over the last couple of years) just because highspeed corners are so much fun in this car. And indeed the whole package feels faster / more powerful than the sheer numbers would suggest - which is a good thing for a sportscar (I definitely prefer it this way than the other way round).  Yes, the door straps always require some extra conversation when a passenger wants to get out of the car  Wait and see is okay (nach "Abwarten und T.. trinken" folgt "T fahren")

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

Thank you, and, yes, give me the dirty „T“ talk ! 

Grant:

Porker:

Really nice, thanks for sharing!

What I do notice, after last trackday at Imola, even with PCCB's my pedal started getting softer by the end of the day. And to this day, my brakes haven't felt the same, the power is there but the pedal travel has become longer and softer. Anyone else noticed that? Maybe it's the brakes bedding in, but I prefered the harder pedal I had before.

Hi Frank - I’d recommend some better brake fluid as a first inexpensive fix.  The factory fill is not very good at the track.

Btw, Porsche factory race cars use Endless RF650 and it’s really good, but there are many options.

--

 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

Hi Grant, thanks, I'd informed Manthey of the same and they recommended the same. Factory brake fluid is not able to cope with track. Wonder why they'd not fit proper stuff, but OK..

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker:

 

Hi Grant, thanks, I'd informed Manthey of the same and they recommended the same. Factory brake fluid is not able to cope with track. Wonder why they'd not fit proper stuff, but OK..

easy answer, that would mean another hose at the factory with another extra part number to deal with...too complicated, put the same shitty fluid as others cars. job done.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

Porker:

 

Hi Grant, thanks, I'd informed Manthey of the same and they recommended the same. Factory brake fluid is not able to cope with track. Wonder why they'd not fit proper stuff, but OK..

easy answer, that would mean another hose at the factory with another extra part number to deal with...too complicated, put the same shitty fluid as others cars. job done.

That and the fact that race brakefluid is hygroscopic and needs to be changed more often. Something that wouldn’t necessarily work with the regular service intervals.

Ferdie:

the-missile:

Porker:

 

Hi Grant, thanks, I'd informed Manthey of the same and they recommended the same. Factory brake fluid is not able to cope with track. Wonder why they'd not fit proper stuff, but OK..

easy answer, that would mean another hose at the factory with another extra part number to deal with...too complicated, put the same shitty fluid as others cars. job done.

That and the fact that race brakefluid is hygroscopic and needs to be changed more often. Something that wouldn’t necessarily work with the regular service intervals.

Actually the regular brake fluid is hygroscopic also.  The Endless race stuff has kept a firm pedal in my DD for way longer than I'd like to admit (should have changed it long ago, but pedal still great).

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Speaking about brakes...the PCCB of my T is the same hardware as in the GT3 and GT2 models, 

If you drive a GT3 with red brakes or PCCB the brake pedal is rock hard, in my T it is way softer and I don‘t like it.

Why is it different?

Blueflame

blueflame:

Speaking about brakes...the PCCB of my T is the same hardware as in the GT3 and GT2 models, 

If you drive a GT3 with red brakes or PCCB the brake pedal is rock hard, in my T it is way softer and I don‘t like it.

Why is it different?

Blueflame

Maybe a different master cylinder?  Or maybe there is a brake bias valve (mid-engine car needs different front-rear bias than 911)?

--

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

There is some difference in PCCBs for 991.2 Turbo/GT3 models and the ones for 991.2 GTS or T. Even cost is not the same, almost 700€ more for GT3 models.

KresoF1:

There is some difference in PCCBs for 991.2 Turbo/GT3 models and the ones for 991.2 GTS or T. Even cost is not the same, almost 700€ more for GT3 models.

That´s the technical thing I would like to know, as discs, pads and callippers are the same parts...

Maybe, as Grant said, the master cylinder...and maybe the brake lines...?

It could be, that Porsche thinks, that non-GT-Model-drivers prefer a softer brake pedal.

Blueflame

KresoF1:

There is some difference in PCCBs for 991.2 Turbo/GT3 models and the ones for 991.2 GTS or T. Even cost is not the same, almost 700€ more for GT3 models.

I know it used to be the case that the Cayman/Boxster/Carrera used a smaller version of PCCB (350mm vs. 410mm front rotor), but I think the new version is the same.

As for the price being higher on GT3, that is weird since the difference between the base brakes and PCCB is bigger on the non-GT cars.  Maybe a case of charging more on the more expensive car for no good reason, except the buyer more likely to pay it?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

blueflame:

 

Maybe, as Grant said, the master cylinder...and maybe the brake lines...?

 

Your dealer should be able to see the part numbers for the Master Cylinder on each car equipped with PCCB and see if there is a difference.  If you upgrade to GT3 version (if different), this is not a very expensive upgrade (987 owners did this frequently).

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

blueflame:

Speaking about brakes...the PCCB of my T is the same hardware as in the GT3 and GT2 models, 

If you drive a GT3 with red brakes or PCCB the brake pedal is rock hard, in my T it is way softer and I don‘t like it.

Why is it different?

Blueflame

Air in the system?

That was my guess too - I would recommend to replace the brake fluid (to race fluid) first...

Grant:

Actually the regular brake fluid is hygroscopic also.  The Endless race stuff has kept a firm pedal in my DD for way longer than I'd like to admit (should have changed it long ago, but pedal still great).

Yes, certainly hygroscopic as well but to a lesser extend. Maybe the climate in your region is beneficial.

blueflame:

KresoF1:

There is some difference in PCCBs for 991.2 Turbo/GT3 models and the ones for 991.2 GTS or T. Even cost is not the same, almost 700€ more for GT3 models.

That´s the technical thing I would like to know, as discs, pads and callippers are the same parts...

Maybe, as Grant said, the master cylinder...and maybe the brake lines...?

It could be, that Porsche thinks, that non-GT-Model-drivers prefer a softer brake pedal.

Yes, those items would be my first guess as well. From my understanding, the calibration of the brake booster is different as well on the GT models. I am still somewhat surprised that the pads are supposed to be the same on all these models as I would’ve expected Porsche to setup the GT versions more towards the racetrack.

keeping this thread alive, I just had a look into the German Porsche used car search and realized that NONE of those cars had RWS. I have certainly read potential pros and cons for RWS, however, I do recollect that many of the press cars in the reviews had / have RWS. So, what is the point in marketing it as the great additional option for the "T", when only a very few seem to order it... ?  Same goes for the (non-foldable) bucket seats by the way ......

Grant:

blueflame:

 

Maybe, as Grant said, the master cylinder...and maybe the brake lines...?

 

Your dealer should be able to see the part numbers for the Master Cylinder on each car equipped with PCCB and see if there is a difference.  If you upgrade to GT3 version (if different), this is not a very expensive upgrade (987 owners did this frequently).

I have sent a request about this topic to Porsche Germany and will post the answer here...

Blueflame

d997h:

keeping this thread alive, I just had a look into the German Porsche used car search and realized that NONE of those cars had RWS. I have certainly read potential pros and cons for RWS, however, I do recollect that many of the press cars in the reviews had / have RWS. So, what is the point in marketing it as the great additional option for the "T", when only a very few seem to order it... ?  Same goes for the (non-foldable) bucket seats by the way ......

Have a look at used .2 GTS. Maybe prices are getting attractive soon? 

Went for a drive today. The car is a blast! 

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

bluelines:

d997h:

keeping this thread alive, I just had a look into the German Porsche used car search and realized that NONE of those cars had RWS. I have certainly read potential pros and cons for RWS, however, I do recollect that many of the press cars in the reviews had / have RWS. So, what is the point in marketing it as the great additional option for the "T", when only a very few seem to order it... ?  Same goes for the (non-foldable) bucket seats by the way ......

Have a look at used .2 GTS. Maybe prices are getting attractive soon? 

Went for a drive today. The car is a blast! 

Cˋmon, GT3 Killah, don‘t temp me to join the dark side  , but, you may as well continue trying ...

blueflame:

Grant:

blueflame:

 

Maybe, as Grant said, the master cylinder...and maybe the brake lines...?

 

Your dealer should be able to see the part numbers for the Master Cylinder on each car equipped with PCCB and see if there is a difference.  If you upgrade to GT3 version (if different), this is not a very expensive upgrade (987 owners did this frequently).

I have sent a request about this topic to Porsche Germany and will post the answer here...

Blueflame

Very well, keep us posted, ... from my experience you will have to address this multiple times (going between PZ and HQ back and forth) ... 

bluelines:

d997h:

keeping this thread alive, I just had a look into the German Porsche used car search and realized that NONE of those cars had RWS. I have certainly read potential pros and cons for RWS, however, I do recollect that many of the press cars in the reviews had / have RWS. So, what is the point in marketing it as the great additional option for the "T", when only a very few seem to order it... ?  Same goes for the (non-foldable) bucket seats by the way ......

Have a look at used .2 GTS. Maybe prices are getting attractive soon? 

Went for a drive today. The car is a blast! 

I'd get the .2 GTS in a heart beat.

2018 White 911 GT3

No answer from Porsche about the PCCB differences yet...but some pics from a short trip to the Grossglockner/Austria from yesterday.

Blueflame