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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
McLaren knows this, the FIA knows this and we as spectators know this.
Actually, if you pay careful attention to the other posters in this thread you'll notice you're the only one who "knows this". Pretty much everyone else agrees that there is nothing wrong with what McLaren are doing. You're sounding more and more like you have a personal vendetta against McLaren/Hamilton.
Sorry to say that, but you really do!
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
r8m8 said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
McLaren knows this, the FIA knows this and we as spectators know this.
Actually, if you pay careful attention to the other posters in this thread you'll notice you're the only one who "knows this". Pretty much everyone else agrees that there is nothing wrong with what McLaren are doing. You're sounding more and more like you have a personal vendetta against McLaren/Hamilton.
Sorry to say that, but you really do!
Your point being..?
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
I'm suggesting that you are trying to find ways of making a competitive technical modification sound like foul play. And you're doing it fanatically enough to suggest a very strong bias. If you're in any doubt of this, feel free to look for the word "scandal" in the topic 
. Although to be fair you did use a question mark!
. Although to be fair you did use a question mark!
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
It's no different than the Brabham BT46, Lotus 79, the deformable front wing of the Ferrari, etc.
If something is not outlawed in the rule book, it's legal.
Only a MacLaren hater, a Hamilton Hater or a Black Hater would consider this a so called 'scandal'.
F1 is build on engineers challenging the existing rule book in order to extract the max performance out of a car, this is part of the game.
If something is not outlawed in the rule book, it's legal.
Only a MacLaren hater, a Hamilton Hater or a Black Hater would consider this a so called 'scandal'.
F1 is build on engineers challenging the existing rule book in order to extract the max performance out of a car, this is part of the game.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
It's no different than the Brabham BT46, Lotus 79, the deformable front wing of the Ferrari, etc.
If something is not outlawed in the rule book, it's legal.
Only a MacLaren hater, a Hamilton Hater or a Black Hater would consider this a so called 'scandal'.
F1 is build on engineers challenging the existing rule book in order to extract the max performance out of a car, this is part of the game.
Bollocks. This is foul play and Dr. Phil has hit the nail on its head. Traction control was banned for a reason and just because they managed to squeeze through a modification that is apparently legal (for the time being), doesn't make the said modification legitimate. It's cheating, whether it's legal or not.
And by the way, you are out of line with the Hamilton/black hater. I guess everyone who doubts Hamilton (or Obama, while we're at it) is a racist hater
. We get enough of this c.rap in our overly-PC media, so please, we don't need this on Rennteam.Dr. Phil, well said.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
mumbasic said:Quote:
assman!!! said:
Ahhh, where are the days when Schumacher was able to win races with a dog of a car with nothing but pure skill...
you mean "SCHUMMEL-SCHUMI"?? in english cheating-Schumi!
AM
Kind of how Prost and Senna cheated?
Are you saying they weren't talented either? 
The fact of the matter is that Schumacher, especially in the years when he was battling Hakkinen in '98 and '99, was capable of winning with a substantially below-par car...
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
You guys are awesome, have you been living under a rock the latest 20 years? All I can say is welcome to F1. Working your way around rules has been a part of the game since they one. Heck Ferrari used a flexing floor last year which was leaning towards the illegal side of the scale. Mclaren isn't cheating at all here since FIA inspects all cars before and after each race and they have yet to raise their flag to Mclaren about this. F1 has always been around developing the best car withing the frame work of the rules set up by FIA, so you guys can take you cynical arguments elsewhere. The sport has never been 100% equal and never will be.
This is just another pathetic attempt by Hamilton haters to scrutinize his driving.
This is just another pathetic attempt by Hamilton haters to scrutinize his driving.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
doyle said:
90% of the innovation in F1 comes as a result of finding solutions to restraints. In that regard, FIA rules are no different than the rules of physics or aerodynamics. Finding a gap in either to innovate a new solution is not cheating, it's clever engineering. To F1 engineers, the FIA rules are merely another performance problem to be corrected.
I agree to a certain extent.
However, there is a difference in making the most WITHIN the limitations imposed, and trying to find loopholes and thus not following the very idea of said restraints.
If the rules say "naturally aspired 8 cylinder engine" then it's the goal of the teams to make the best and most powerful engine possible withing that limitation.
But if the rules call for "no traction control" and you come up with a system that does the same thing, only you call it something different, then you don't play by the rules in my book.
It's like when politicians tell a lie. They don't call it a lie, but "an untruth".
Same sh!t, different smell.
McLaren apparently dont like to play by the rules.
They know full well that traction control has been banned for several reasons.
Maybe the FIA hasn't been precise enough in their wording when they made the limitations, but I am pretty sure they didn't expect or wish for the teams to come up with a device that does the exact same thing, only thru the use of different technology.
What's next?
McLaren comes up with a software virus that disprupts the other teams' programming? Hey! The rules don't say you cant do that!
The rule of no traction control was partly introduced to make the teams more equal and the races more exciting and, well.. fair.
We want to see the best driver win, and altho the established teams probably always will have the upper hand, and the teams are never truly equal, these rules (omitting TC being one of them) are there to try to even the odds.
Breaking that rule, no matter how cleverly you do it, goes against the very point of the rule.
McLaren knows this, the FIA knows this and we as spectators know this.
Let's see how many races they will let Hamilton win in his traction control car, before they stop him, or all the other teams also get TC (called something else) back.
That's all well and good, but "being about the driver" is a romantic notion of the early days. In today's age, like it or not, the driver is just another system in a car to be managed and quite possibly, in the eyes of many engineers, may be the weakest link in the collection of systems. If the rule says no automatic traction control run off of the gear change single paddle and McLaren creates a manual system utilizing a separate paddle, then that is not circumventing the rules or the "spirit of the rules", but simply applying them creatively. That is the reason guys like Adrian Newey are paid the millions that they are.
Brake bias is not as glamorous and the rules state that no automatic brake bias can be applied to the car or controlled via telemetry from the pits, yet the drivers have mnanual adjusters on the steering wheels to adjust the bias. Is that circumventing the rules?
Jul 29, 2008 2:56:37 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Sorry to nitpick but Adrian Newey left McLaren to join Red Bull a couple of years ago 
BUT IMHO your point is nonetheless 100% correct. Engineers are paid shed loads of money to motivate them to find incredibly clever solutions to technical challenges that are nonetheless within the 'letter' of the rules.
Anyone who believes that something is 'cheating' when it is within the 'literal meaning' of the rules is living in a dream world. Modern sports are all about winning at all costs but within the 'letter' of the rules. There is so much money invested with so many sponsors involved etc that vague concepts like the 'spirit' of the rules are for nostalgic and naive simpletons.
If a technical achievement is within the 'letter' of the rules but not within the 'spirit' of the rules then it is the responsibility of the FIA to draft those rules more tightly/carefully.
This is why having a FIA President who is distracted with litigation about his personal life is a bad thing for F1. 'Bondage Max' needs to focus on the sport again instead of on which newspaper he is going to sue next.
BUT IMHO your point is nonetheless 100% correct. Engineers are paid shed loads of money to motivate them to find incredibly clever solutions to technical challenges that are nonetheless within the 'letter' of the rules.
Anyone who believes that something is 'cheating' when it is within the 'literal meaning' of the rules is living in a dream world. Modern sports are all about winning at all costs but within the 'letter' of the rules. There is so much money invested with so many sponsors involved etc that vague concepts like the 'spirit' of the rules are for nostalgic and naive simpletons.
If a technical achievement is within the 'letter' of the rules but not within the 'spirit' of the rules then it is the responsibility of the FIA to draft those rules more tightly/carefully.
This is why having a FIA President who is distracted with litigation about his personal life is a bad thing for F1. 'Bondage Max' needs to focus on the sport again instead of on which newspaper he is going to sue next.
Jul 29, 2008 3:04:04 PM
- gangajas
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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Sorry to nitpick but Adrian Newey left McLaren to join Red Bull a couple of years ago
BUT IMHO your point is nonetheless 100% correct. Engineers are paid shed loads of money to motivate them to find incredibly clever solutions to technical challenges that are nonetheless within the 'letter' of the rules.
Anyone who believes that something is 'cheating' when it is within the 'literal meaning' of the rules is living in a dream world. Modern sports are all about winning at all costs but within the 'letter' of the rules. There is so much money invested with so many sponsors involved etc that vague concepts like the 'spirit' of the rules are for nostalgic and naive simpletons.
If a technical achievement is within the 'letter' of the rules but not within the 'spirit' of the rules then it is the responsibility of the FIA to draft those rules more tightly/carefully.
This is why having a FIA President who is distracted with litigation about his personal life is a bad thing for F1. 'Bondage Max' needs to focus on the sport again instead of on which newspaper he is going to sue next.
All this Mosley affair started because the British press couldn't accept that a British team, the team of their Golden Boy!, was caught cheating. They had to do something about that and laid him an ambush.
Jul 29, 2008 4:29:19 PM
- easy_rider911
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Jul 29, 2008 4:57:30 PM
- Crash
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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
We can always count on you, my dear gangajas, to twist any issue into an anti-British one. You don't let your grudges fade away... it's healthier you know
It's healthier to keep your grudges instead of letting them fade away?
Jul 29, 2008 6:48:06 PM
- doyle
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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Sorry to nitpick but Adrian Newey left McLaren to join Red Bull a couple of years ago
Not a nitpick at all. I actually wasn't even thinking the previous Newey/McLaren connection. I was simply picking out a known name that is well paid and Newey was the first that came to mind.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
From the 2008 Formula One Technical Regulations:
9.3 Traction control
"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."
"...a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power".
I am not a lawyer, so please tell me how McLaren's new system is not in violation of this rule.
9.3 Traction control
"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."
"...a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power".
I am not a lawyer, so please tell me how McLaren's new system is not in violation of this rule.
Jul 29, 2008 8:39:08 PM
- gangajas
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Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
From the 2008 Formula One Technical Regulations:
9.3 Traction control
"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."
"...a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power".
I am not a lawyer, so please tell me how McLaren's new system is not in violation of this rule.
Exactly, you're not a lawyer and neither do you know the full technical description of what the paddles do. Just like patent applications the F1 regulations are highly specific and detailed. All the rules available to us are very vague compared with the regulation book handed to the team. With that being said you don't know in detail how Mclaren's system works whether or not it limits engine rev or torque rather than controlling the wheels themselves. So stop eating what the tabloid-like journalist who know squat about the full technical aspects of the matter writes.
FIA knew about the system since the start of this season since they have kept a very close eye on the development of the MP-23. If illegal, the system would never even have seen daylight.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
All the top F1 teams, try everything to get as close to the technical envelope and sometimes overstep the boundary. The good thing it invariably comes out, the FIA make a ruling, if yay, the rest will have version a few races later and if not allowed, then its taken off and the team reprimanded and if it finds a clever loophole then either plugged by the FIA, or all allowed to follow. Ferrari was told to change their car after the first race of last season, BAR were fined and banned a race for their petrol tank, bmw or williams for their moving wings, renault for their launch control.
In regards to Dr Phil's point, it does seem if the McLaren car has an advantage at the moment. However, there are two McLaren cars and Hamilton out drove his team mate by a considerable margin.
F1 history is littered with certain teams dominating, whether Williams in the 90s with a much faster car than anyone else, Mclaren in the 80s and Ferrari in the 00s.
My theory is whenever a team scores a 1-2 finish, then its down to car advantage rather than driver skill level.
In regards to Dr Phil's point, it does seem if the McLaren car has an advantage at the moment. However, there are two McLaren cars and Hamilton out drove his team mate by a considerable margin.
F1 history is littered with certain teams dominating, whether Williams in the 90s with a much faster car than anyone else, Mclaren in the 80s and Ferrari in the 00s.
My theory is whenever a team scores a 1-2 finish, then its down to car advantage rather than driver skill level.
Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
From the 2008 Formula One Technical Regulations:
9.3 Traction control
"No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted."
"...a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power".
I am not a lawyer, so please tell me how McLaren's new system is not in violation of this rule.
Above sounds in my department as clear cheating. However, what will happen is that McLaren will make sure that the gap is not to big in the next wins - but if they can compensate 21 seconds due to strategy mistake in 7 rounds I am sure you will see some interesting races to come...
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