Crown

J.Seven

pmarkow:

EnglishManInNY:

AutoExpress 991.2TTS v 488 GTB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnPLatqIEtU

 

sutcliffe is loosing it.

I don't think so... I heard the 488 recently (interior and exterior) and this is probably the first Ferrari I would call (almost) boring. The only advantage the 488 seems to have over the Turbo S is the emotional part regarding the interior and exterior. Everything else, well...  Actually, I would choose neither, I would go for the Huracan, the new R8 or the F12. Maybe a McLaren in-between as well but the 488? The first Ferrari I wouldn't choose even if I could afford one.

Performance in real life comparisons is basically the same indeed because most people will stay in the speed range below 200 kph (125 mph).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Ditto. Huracan would be my choice.

The Huracan and 991TT are complete opposites. One is a car, the other is a toy. The only point of comparison is the performance.

I'm not sure that it's fair to campare the TT to these other cars in terms of raw appeal since the Turbo does things the others cannot in my view.

If one wants a weekend car, I can understand the desire to look at the alternatives...but as "one sports car to do it all", in my book, the TT still has no real competitors.

At this price, they are all toys in my opinion. 

FlatSix911:

The Huracan and 991TT are complete opposites. One is a car, the other is a toy. The only point of comparison is the performance.

I'm not sure that it's fair to campare the TT to these other cars in terms of raw appeal since the Turbo does things the others cannot in my view.

If one wants a weekend car, I can understand the desire to look at the alternatives...but as "one sports car to do it all", in my book, the TT still has no real competitors.

As a daily super car, the 991 Turbo S is without competitor, I fully agree. For a weekend toy however, the Turbo S is the wrong car and I truly hate to say this because I am very impressed by this car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

KMM:

At this price, they are all toys in my opinion. 

Not really, believe it or not. The Turbo S can be a very good daily driver, probably why this car is so successful in Germany.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Drove the Huracan for 2 days / 400km in Tuscany. After being hugely disappointed by the Aventador I didn't expect much from the Huracan. What a surprise! Amazing combination of engineering and emotion. I wouldn't call it a toy. It's a mature exotic car beating the Turbo S in every dimension except steering feel and practicality. The engine + gearbox combination is at a completely different level - far better calibrated than the Turbo's. It doesn't feel like you are missing the torque of the Turbo yet you enjoy a longer power band and every few thousand revs the engine sound changes dramatically.  

I even like the suspension better - it's firmer, but perfectly damped even on some very bad roads. As a Porsche fan my somewhat sad conclusion is that unless you use the Turbo S as a daily driver (it's unbeatable), it would be the third choice after the Huracan and the 488. Given the miserable way Ferrari treats it's customers, the choice becomes even easier.

I would take the Huracan in a heartbeat as a weekend toy but for now, I think that a used R8 V10 Plus must suffice.  Let's see if the deal goes through next week or the week after...

As a daily driver, nothing beats the Turbo S, indeed. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

pmarkow:

EnglishManInNY:

AutoExpress 991.2TTS v 488 GTB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnPLatqIEtU

 

sutcliffe is loosing it.

I don't think so... I heard the 488 recently (interior and exterior) and this is probably the first Ferrari I would call (almost) boring. The only advantage the 488 seems to have over the Turbo S is the emotional part regarding the interior and exterior.

 

the emotional part is 80% of the supercar experience. why pay 200K euros otherwise unless we are talking track performance (which is not the domain of either car).

Everything else, well...  Actually, I would choose neither, I would go for the Huracan, the new R8 or the F12. Maybe a McLaren in-between as well but the 488? The first Ferrari I wouldn't choose even if I could afford one.

the R8: same story as the turbo S. looses out fully in the emotions department. fugly. mclaren: just another turbo, what does it have over it the 488? F12: sure, why not. just annoyingly many petrol station stops. huracan: has many things to go for it, except the tunnel vision of the world it gives you from the inside.

Performance in real life comparisons is basically the same indeed because most people will stay in the speed range below 200 kph (125 mph).

exactly right. same thing performance wise. so what counts is the emotions it gives you.

totally agree - as much as I liked the Huracan spyder to drive - the view thru the small front window is terrible and to me a Turbo S at least feels much stronger - however in the "Looks" department it's a stunner and in my view the single reason to get one.

My only problem with the Huracan would  be the front view . When sitting in one I look more at the top window frame then on to the road ...... Sad, as for the looks and sounds that car rocks !

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

I drove behind a new Lambo model yesterday. Not sure which. It did not sound nice at all  Lots of artificial sounding pops and blurbs on the overrun. 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

AutoExpress 991.2TTS v 488 GTB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnPLatqIEtU

Reminds me of the late 80's

bluelines:

I drove behind a new Lambo model yesterday. Not sure which. It did not sound nice at all  Lots of artificial sounding pops and blurbs on the overrun. 

Are you sure that it was a Lamborghini at all :) Both the V10 and the V12 are masterpieces of engine sound. They have to be experienced behind the wheel. With the V12, that's all you get - brutal engine experience. And the looks. With the Huracan you get the perfect compromise between exotic feeling and true performance and engineering. Yes, there are compromises with the visibility and to a certain extent the steering feel but the car felt to me more composed and far better calibrated than the Turbo S. All those fears of understeer as reported by the jounalists...Maybe if you drive on a track or like a lunatic. I drove quite fast on SR222 in Tuscany (part of Mille Miglia) with far more confidence than the 458 I drove on the way back. To get anywhere near the levels of fun you can get with those two cars with e TTS, you'll have to drive like a lunatic. 

It's a pity that Porsche is not even trying to compete in this league. Their GT cars are seriously underpowered and the Turbo S is to plain. It does a perfect job of being my daily driver but when I am in that special mood for "driving" I don't feel like I have something "interesting" in the garage....and yet it's list price is EUR 225 000...

Some Porsche manager admitted that they were short on engineering resources...Too busy developing 4-cylinder engines, diesel SUV's and sedans for desperate housewives and other Porsche wanna be's and countless 911 derivatives. Their biggest innovation will be the re-introduction of the manual gearbox in the GT range "for the purists" (80% of which can't actually shift). All that instead of astonishing the loyal clients for their most expensive serial model. But I guess it all makes perfect business sense....for now.

Herbaliser:

bluelines:

I drove behind a new Lambo model yesterday. Not sure which. It did not sound nice at all  Lots of artificial sounding pops and blurbs on the overrun. 

Are you sure that it was a Lamborghini at all :) Both the V10 and the V12 are masterpieces of engine sound. 

Yes, 100% positive 

It must have been a V12. It did not sound like a V10 at all. Or maybe it was a new hybrid test rig from Lambo 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Herbaliser:

 

It's a pity that Porsche is not even trying to compete in this league.

maybe the GT2RS

Their GT cars are seriously underpowered

i do not agree with this. the 500hp of the Gt3RS are a nice sweet spot of usability and excitement.

 

 

and the Turbo S is to plain. It does a perfect job of being my daily driver but when I am in that special mood for "driving" I don't feel like I have something "interesting" in the garage....and yet it's list price is EUR 225 000...

+100

Some Porsche manager admitted that they were short on engineering resources...Too busy developing 4-cylinder engines, diesel SUV's and sedans for desperate housewives and other Porsche wanna be's and countless 911 derivatives. Their biggest innovation will be the re-introduction of the manual gearbox in the GT range "for the purists" (80% of which can't actually shift). All that instead of astonishing the loyal clients for their most expensive serial model. But I guess it all makes perfect business sense....for now.

+100. 

and why bother competing in the upper end when a parts-bin exercise/special edition like the R brings in millions for porsche without any real engineering effort. great short term strategy, in the long run the real money is with SUV's for desperate housewives and family panameras anyway.

I think the Huracan 580 is the version to get. Looks better, is cheaper, and shouldn't be much lower in performance.

The pops on overrun are very artificial though, yes.

noone1:

I think the Huracan 580 is the version to get. Looks better, is cheaper, and shouldn't be much lower in performance.

The pops on overrun are very artificial though, yes.

Yes, that is the one! *blurb... pop, bop... pop, bop... blurb*

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

noone1:

I think the Huracan 580 is the version to get. Looks better, is cheaper, and shouldn't be much lower in performance.

The pops on overrun are very artificial though, yes.

Yes, that is the one! *blurb... pop, bop... pop, bop... blurb*

truly annoying those pops. but the turbo S does the same thing and still sounds like the nothingness on wheels:::)))

pmarkow:

the emotional part is 80% of the supercar experience. why pay 200K euros otherwise unless we are talking track performance (which is not the domain of either car).

 

True, I realized that (unfortunately) for the very first time in the (otherwise) fantastic 991 Turbo S.

the R8: same story as the turbo S. looses out fully in the emotions department. fugly. mclaren: just another turbo, what does it have over it the 488? F12: sure, why not. just annoyingly many petrol station stops. huracan: has many things to go for it, except the tunnel vision of the world it gives you from the inside.

Have you driven a R8 V10 Plus (last or current generation)? Amazing cars and with lots of emotions, the sound alone is worth getting one. Fugly? I never liked the first R8 but the facelift and especially the V10 Plus looks pretty good in my opinion. The sideline is still a bit weird though but this doesn't bother me. The interior is superb and surprisingly, I like the last (previous) generation interior more than the new one. Had the chance to sit in a new R8 yesterday and the old one feels/looks better/sportier. The digital dash is a nice gimmick but other than that, I (kind of) got the feeling of sitting in a Q7 (which I also sat in yesterday). So we cannot argue on the fugly think, this is a matter of taste but the R8 V10 Plus I'm interested in sounds amazing and I got shivers while driving this car.

Performance in real life comparisons is basically the same indeed because most people will stay in the speed range below 200 kph (125 mph).

exactly right. same thing performance wise. so what counts is the emotions it gives you.

Won't argue with you on that. One reason I may get myself the "old" R8 V10 Plus instead of the new one, both would cost me basically the same (lease) but I may want to keep the "old" one and it would be easier (much cheaper) to buy it after the lease because the remaining value is only aprox. 60k EUR instead of almost double for the new one.

Also interesting: ABT offers a 600 hp tuning for the "old" R8 V10 Plus and takes over the full warranty from Audi, incl. the prolonged one (another 3 years). The warranty conditions are a bit worse (no loaner, you need to bring the car yourself to the repair shop, etc.) but since the R8 V10 Plus would be a weekend toy (replacing the GT500), this wouldn't matter. Surprisingly, I can OFFICIALLY tune the leased car because my Audi dealer approves it. Only downside: I have to pay for the tuning in full (cannot put it through the lease) and I do not get anything for it when I return the car (if I don't buy it), it doesn't raise the value of the car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

sounds like a very good deal. i fully admit that the R8 V10 plus is sufficiently different from the 'normal' versions. just double-check whether the car satisfies you in the emotions department and that you don't lust after the huracan when you see one on the road. this can get expensive as most of us know from first hand experience:::))))

pmarkow:

sounds like a very good deal. i fully admit that the R8 V10 plus is sufficiently different from the 'normal' versions. just double-check whether the car satisfies you in the emotions department and that you don't lust after the huracan when you see one on the road. this can get expensive as most of us know from first hand experience:::))))

The R8 V10 Plus has the advantage of the "low" price (45% of the former new price) plus one year manufacturer warranty and another three years of extended warranty, everything included. Car is in pristine condition, very low mileage, basically new (only a year old) and driven by an (older) Audi CEO only. Fully loaded (new price around 185k). Pretty good offer, color, everything is just perfect, exactly as I would have ordered it.

Audi dealers are just around every corner in Germany, so no worries (vs. Lamborghini).

Another advantage is the fact that this is a German car, a German "exotic" and I will probably don't provoke as much as I would do with a Lamborghini.

I drove the R8 V10 Plus (exactly this car I want) for 100 km and I loved it. S-tronic is similar to PDK, maybe a bit better (faster) and the engine is just divine. I revved over 8000 rpm, the sound of the V10 is incredible, it screams like a race engine and it is street legal. Car is also pretty comfortable but really fast as well. The standard carbon ceramic brakes are also fantastic. There is nothing I didn't like about this car...oh wait, the fuel consumption was at a point close to 30 liters... 

Wonderful car and for 45% of the new price, amazing. Found a similar car in Munich, also with low mileage (though a bit more than this one) for basically 50% off the new price tag. These cars lose serious money!

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

pmarkow:

sounds like a very good deal. i fully admit that the R8 V10 plus is sufficiently different from the 'normal' versions. just double-check whether the car satisfies you in the emotions department and that you don't lust after the huracan when you see one on the road. this can get expensive as most of us know from first hand experience:::))))

The R8 V10 Plus has the advantage of the "low" price (45% of the former new price) plus one year manufacturer warranty and another three years of extended warranty, everything included. Car is in pristine condition, very low mileage, basically new (only a year old) and driven by an (older) Audi CEO only. Fully loaded (new price around 185k). Pretty good offer, color, everything is just perfect, exactly as I would have ordered it.

Audi dealers are just around every corner in Germany, so no worries (vs. Lamborghini).

Another advantage is the fact that this is a German car, a German "exotic" and I will probably don't provoke as much as I would do with a Lamborghini.

I drove the R8 V10 Plus (exactly this car I want) for 100 km and I loved it. S-tronic is similar to PDK, maybe a bit better (faster) and the engine is just divine. I revved over 8000 rpm, the sound of the V10 is incredible, it screams like a race engine and it is street legal. Car is also pretty comfortable but really fast as well. The standard carbon ceramic brakes are also fantastic. There is nothing I didn't like about this car...oh wait, the fuel consumption was at a point close to 30 liters... 

Wonderful car and for 45% of the new price, amazing. Found a similar car in Munich, also with low mileage (though a bit more than this one) for basically 50% off the new price tag. These cars lose serious money!

 

well, most of the depreciation will be done now when you come in. you should go for it then::::))))

I think it would be worthwhile for you to open a separate thread for your new toy - I mean, you wouldn't want to waste time posting your pics later, right ?

d997h:

I think it would be worthwhile for you to open a separate thread for your new toy - I mean, you wouldn't want to waste time posting your pics later, right ?

Sorry about going off-topic, just wanted to add the "alternative" to the 991.2 Turbo/Turbo S...the new Audi R8 (the used car story just mixed in... ).

If I had to drive a sports car every single day during the week, I would clearly choose a 991.2 Turbo/Turbo S though. Very relaxed drive (if you need it to be relaxed). Best super sports car daily driver on the market, no doubt about it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Won't argue with you on that. One reason I may get myself the "old" R8 V10 Plus instead of the new one, both would cost me basically the same (lease) but I may want to keep the "old" one and it would be easier (much cheaper) to buy it after the lease because the remaining value is only aprox. 60k EUR instead of almost double for the new one.

Haha, RC, not a chance. Don't trick yourself  you always say that.

zzboba:

RC:

Won't argue with you on that. One reason I may get myself the "old" R8 V10 Plus instead of the new one, both would cost me basically the same (lease) but I may want to keep the "old" one and it would be easier (much cheaper) to buy it after the lease because the remaining value is only aprox. 60k EUR instead of almost double for the new one.

Haha, RC, not a chance. Don't trick yourself  you always say that.

+1 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

zzboba:

RC:

Won't argue with you on that. One reason I may get myself the "old" R8 V10 Plus instead of the new one, both would cost me basically the same (lease) but I may want to keep the "old" one and it would be easier (much cheaper) to buy it after the lease because the remaining value is only aprox. 60k EUR instead of almost double for the new one.

Haha, RC, not a chance. Don't trick yourself  you always say that.

Actually no. I said I want to keep the GTS and I'm working on that. I would have loved to keep the GT500, it is a beast but too much headache regarding the future of this car and...don't get me wrong, not really the right people(owners) over here i  Germany I can associate with. Biggest concern is regarding repair and maintenance cost though and of course the time factor.

Never had the desire to keep a car other than the GTS but the R8 V10 Plus could change that, especially considering the price tag. A RS6 would probably make more sense for me and my family but my wife hates station wagons and I really wouldn't want to keep a RS6.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)