Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar - Page1

Aug 17, 2004 5:34:57 PM

donnyj: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 30, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 25, 2003; Reply to: watt

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Although the Porsche Boxter is a great car I do not think it should have been built ....it has watered down the Porsche image......The Cayanne on the other hand is an awsome bit of kit Porsche entered the SUV market with the quickest and best handling 4 by 4 how many companies could have done that ...None

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Aug 17, 2004 6:09:30 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: donnyj

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
donnyj said:
Although the Porsche Boxter is a great car I do not think it should have been built ....it has watered down the Porsche image......The Cayanne on the other hand is an awsome bit of kit Porsche entered the SUV market with the quickest and best handling 4 by 4 how many companies could have done that ...None

Funny, I rather see it the other way 'round!

Porsche always had a model next to the 911 in the recent decades. The Boxster is about as much Porsche as a model next to the Carrera could get. Remarkable.

The Cayenne is definately a great piece of machinery but it is not a Porsche in terms of styling, agility, long-term durability under heavy driving - remember RC's comment about his brake exchange after less than 10k kms...

In terms of handling and technology, the Cayenne is definately a Porsche! Yes.

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Aug 17, 2004 7:46:00 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
Ferdie said:
The Cayenne is definately a great piece of machinery but it is not a Porsche in terms of styling, agility, long-term durability under heavy driving - remember RC's comment about his brake exchange after less than 10k kms...

I'm afraind not only the brake discs/pads (after 8200 km) but soon the tires (all four) too.

This is the first time in my life that I exchange brake discs and/or tires before reaching 20000 km. Ouch.

And I never track raced the Cayenne, never towed and used it fully loaded only twice.
Porsche definetely made a fast shot with the Cayenne, I just hope they're fair and generous enough to admit it and at least pay for the brake discs incl. install. Not to forget about that stupid throttle/shifting delay issue which keeps me and other owners occupied.
Compared to my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis, the Cayenne is miles or better said lightyears away from a sports car. And still...it is the sportiest SUV on the market, I just wish Porsche would address the extensive tire/brake wear and the horrendous fuel consumption.

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Aug 17, 2004 8:14:09 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

On wear and gas consumption:

1 - Even though you do not track your Cayenne, you do drive it hard. I suspect that a 3 ton vehicle will exact a price on tire and break wear.

2 - A 2 ton vehicle driven at high speed will use a lot of gas. I do not see a way out there.

Unfortunately, I think that as usual... there's no free lunch.

In contrast, a much lighter ML320 not driven as a sports car, uses little gas and wears tires/brakes a long time - but... it does not perform like a Cayenne Turbo.

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Aug 17, 2004 9:34:12 PM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
RC said:
And I never track raced the Cayenne, never towed and used it fully loaded only twice.
[...]
Porsche definetely made a fast shot with the Cayenne, I just hope they're fair and generous enough to admit it and at least pay for the brake discs incl. install.[...]

Driving a 2.5 tons SUV hard (like you seem to do) has its price: fuel consumption as well as brakes and tires wear are a big part of it. And I guess you were fully aware of that when you bought the monster, weren't you? So why should Porsche replace your discs for free? Are they supposed to pay for the gas too?

Greetings,
--Pierre

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Aug 17, 2004 10:17:25 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: pierre

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
pierre said:
Driving a 2.5 tons SUV hard (like you seem to do) has its price: fuel consumption as well as brakes and tires wear are a big part of it. And I guess you were fully aware of that when you bought the monster, weren't you? So why should Porsche replace your discs for free? Are they supposed to pay for the gas too?

Pierre, I did the same with our ML55 AMG and the brake discs lasted over 35000 km, the pads almost 12000 km.
Not to speak about the tires, more than 40000 km.
OK, the Cayenne is 250 kg heavier but this isn't the main reason.

The brake system on the Cayenne Turbo is not well designed, it is too weak for the Turbo. What is suitable for the Cayenne S, is definetely not good for the Cayenne Turbo.
The tires should at least last 15000 km, this is common sense, even if the car is driven EXTREMELY hard.
My guess is that Porsche never expected that people drive the Cayenne like a sportscar. But then I ask you: why should I buy a Cayenne and not go for the VW Touareg W12 for example? Even for less money?!

Since I have the 997 Carrera S, my driving style with the Cayenne has calmed down a little bit. But Porsche should be aware that they owe me something and I will "get" Mr. Wiedeking by his own words. The Cayenne is his baby, his pride and I hope he doesn't forget what he promised.

I surely didn't.

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Aug 17, 2004 10:21:11 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: pierre

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

If they didn't admit to any prob on the 1st gen PCCB's or RMS all these years, the surely are not going to even touch on the Cayenne brakes and tire wear I guarantee you.

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Aug 18, 2004 12:12:36 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
RC said:
...
Pierre, I did the same with our ML55 AMG and the brake discs lasted over 35000 km, the pads almost 12000 km.
Not to speak about the tires, more than 40000 km.
OK, the Cayenne is 250 kg heavier but this isn't the main reason.

...

RC, expecting the Cayenne to be sportscar-like is just as funny as expecting the new 911 to be a terrific hauler just because the trunk space was increased.

Any car weighting far more than 2 tons has its downsides and these will turn out at a certain point! The Cayenne / Touareg combo has definately the best suspension of all SUV's and even one of the best suspensions of all current cars! Still, sharp turn-in, handling on the limit and achievable g-loads have to be payed off somehow!

By the way, based on the ML's silly steering and your personal opinion on the car I don't expect you to drive it as hard as the C-TT - especially since it has 100 hp less!

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Aug 18, 2004 12:12:47 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

How is tire wear Porsche's problem?

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Aug 18, 2004 12:44:35 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
brunner said:
How is tire wear Porsche's problem?

Car manufacturers are using some kind of standards for certain things, including lifespan of parts, etc.
This is very important. Now imagine a car manufacturer would make an engine which lasts only 10000 km. Or they make a tire which is worn out after 5000 km. So there are certain standards which have to be fullfilled.
A worn out tire after 9000 km during street use without any emergency stoppings, any towing or fully loaded driving, is not OK and this is where a car manufacturer has to decide if they're willing to pay for it or not.
Mercedes paid me a set of new brake discs (front and rear) at 57000(!) km because the mixture of the brake pads was too tough and it created some sort of rills in the brake discs. No real safety issue but they exchanged them free of charge.

I have a longtime experience with this stuff, I also got a completely new tire set for my 996 Turbo because the tires had tiny little cracks in the side wall. No kidding!
A Pirelli engineer was sent by Porsche to inspect my car, he looked a few minutes at it and I got a new set of tires, including two spares as a gift.

Trust me, brunner...sooner or later the Cayenne Turbo gets a bigger brake in front. Wanna bet?

Regarding the tire wear, there might be a solution regarding the PASM but I can't talk about it. We'll see...

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Aug 18, 2004 1:02:20 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
RC said:
...

Trust me, brunner...sooner or later the Cayenne Turbo gets a bigger brake in front. Wanna bet?

Regarding the tire wear, there might be a solution regarding the PASM but I can't talk about it. We'll see...

Now I understand what you are aiming at - seems as if there is something in petto!

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Aug 18, 2004 9:48:10 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
brunner said:
How is tire wear Porsche's problem?

Now imagine a car manufacturer would make an engine which lasts only 10000 km. Or they make a tire which is worn out after 5000 km. So there are certain standards which have to be fullfilled.

Last time i checked, Porsche didn't make any tires

The only thing they might be guilty of is choosing a wrong tire brand (i.e. too soft for cayenne's weight), but above all, the tire manufacturer is the one to blame for it's behaviour, right?:)

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Aug 20, 2004 12:34:19 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
Are you sure you want to post that here? There are some here that don't like to hear anything negative about Porsche no matter how true. <img src="http://www.rennteam.com/w3timages/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We'll see if the 997 can equal or better the 996 sales... my money says no. <img src="http://www.rennteam.com/w3timages/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Would you please provide some examples?

It is pretty funny to see so many people talk about Porsche cars and especially the new 997 without even having driven one. Even worse: 99% of people from the US who comment on this car didn't even see one in person.

Of course I can't take many comments seriously because I know better. I wouldn't run this forum with my friends together if we would drive a Yugo.

Have you ever read my comments on the Ferrari forum, or the Mercedes forum? This is what I call neutral, unbiased, through experience achieved, comments.
watt is the best example if you follow his comments over the past months: when he owned a Porsche, he was addicted to Porsche, now he owns a Ferrari, he's addicted to Ferrari and bashes Porsche.
Sorry to say that but somebody who sells a GT2 to get a Challenge Stradale must be completely nuts.
And I somehow tend to start to limit access for certain people to certain forums because what happens now is pure BS. People can say what they want about Porsche, that they look awful, that they are underpowered, that they are only a design joke, whatever. But if somebody bashes Porsche because "they don't build true sportscars anymore", this is not only ridiculous, this is insane.

Yes, I am furious. If a 996 owner says he doesn't like the 997, this is OK to me. If a 993 owner tells me he hates the 996, this is OK to me. But if a Ferrari owner says the 911 is no sportscar or whatever, this sucks because not do I only know better, it is pure provocation not to own a product and to go to a forum and start to bash it.

I wonder if some people don't have a personal agenda regarding their Porsche bashing posts.

That said, we won't tolerate such behaviour anymore.
If you (nick, watt, etc.) have something really interesting to say (for example: I testdrove the 996 Turbo S and didn't like it compared to my Ferrari...or I testdrove the 997 and I don't like it compared to my Ferrari...), you're welcome because we're curious to hear about your experience.
But this whole BS must stop because we're not far away from the point where our Admin does a few clicks and the whole bashing thing ends forever.

C'mon guys, you're adults. If you love Ferrari, why don't you do a nice testdrive report including pictures and post it on the Ferrari forum? Or how about a 360 Challenge Stradale vs. GT2 comparison on the track? So many interesting reports would be possible if you guys would just use a little bit your fantasy and start being productive. Are you guys frustrated with your work, family, driving skills or whatever? Please express your frustration whereever you want but NOT here on Rennteam.com.

Period.
Do something USEFUL for this community!

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Aug 20, 2004 2:20:17 AM

admin: Rennteam Administrator; Loc:; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 25, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

Quote:
RC said:
Do something USEFUL for this community!

Amen.

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