Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS - Page2

Jul 3, 2008 3:24:21 PM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Chris Harris made the correct point that it is hypocritical of Porsche to make a box that could be seamless and have it actually punch you in the back just so the driver can feel he is in for some action, and then when the car knows it is turning and such a punch could destabilize it, to have it shift seamlessly. I think this is below Porsche and should be done away with.

Then maybe that's why I only swear to the GT3.

Such a finicky approach is filled with self-doubt and leads to automotive Disneyland.

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Jul 3, 2008 3:50:36 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
Gnil said:
I am not worried about his test and it is far too early to make definite conclusions.
We need more complete tests from a few different magazines to be able to have a serious judgment.
How can one through the whole car away because of that 1s ?!

My dealer and friend tested the car on Monday in Spain. He LOVED the PDK , specially on sports chrono mode. The change of gear is so strong that you can feel it in the seat.
He has driven lots of P.... owns a GT3 and was very impressed with the car.
So..please...give the car a chance before taking decisions on a few comments.

First, you are very biased since you order PDK 997 without test drive. You need to justify your buy for yourself, not for me.

Second, is there a point for feeling the gear changes in seat backs? With DCT gearbox? Seemsless shifts is the point of DCT gearbox, NOT added surge! You want violent shifts? Go for SMGIII, e-gear(even it is smoother in latest LP560-4) or F1 Superfast... In Sport Plus mode PDK can distabilize the car during shifts since you indeed get violent kick in rear axle...

I respect you highly so, please be little bit more open minded.

PDK is in its current form far from perfection IMHO.

Kreso , thanks for your numerous excellent posts mainly based on facts

My previous comment was mainly aimed at the general comments, not specially yours

I know I might be 'slightly' biased..and look for the good points ( as I have ordered PDK) but I still believe one needs more different opinions. Even professional opinions. Even 0 to 200 km/h times.
I know that 'kick ' in the back on Sports chrono plus is a gimmick, but, yes, I do wish it still will be a ' pleasurable' function, bringing some 'emotions' to this 'unemotional' new transmission.

And yes, certainly PDK.2 will be much improved.
I will not be happy if the car is 'really' slower then what P claims..but I can not make a final judgment on one test..even if the testers are some of the most serious ones.
And knowing your info are very accurate

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Jul 3, 2008 4:21:17 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: MarekN

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
MarekN said:
Chris Harris made the correct point that it is hypocritical of Porsche to make a box that could be seamless and have it actually punch you in the back just so the driver can feel he is in for some action, and then when the car knows it is turning and such a punch could destabilize it, to have it shift seamlessly. I think this is below Porsche and should be done away with.

I can't believe for one second that any jolt the PDK produces is design intent. If there's a jolt it's because they could not make it go away in the current iteration - simple marketing nonsense. Having said that... I am not issuing any judgement as I have to drive the car to see what's going on.

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Jul 3, 2008 4:50:28 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
MarekN said:
Chris Harris made the correct point that it is hypocritical of Porsche to make a box that could be seamless and have it actually punch you in the back just so the driver can feel he is in for some action, and then when the car knows it is turning and such a punch could destabilize it, to have it shift seamlessly. I think this is below Porsche and should be done away with.

I can't believe for one second that any jolt the PDK produces is design intent. If there's a jolt it's because they could not make it go away in the current iteration - simple marketing nonsense. Having said that... I am not issuing any judgement as I have to drive the car to see what's going on.

No, you are not right on that. The PDK purposely gives the jolt to make it seem sportier (in Sport Mode only). Porsche has programmed it NOT to do this (even in Sport Mode) if the G sensors detect that the car is in a corner in which case it's totally seamless, so as to not upset the chassis balance while turning.

BMW has done the same thing with DCT (in it's more aggressive modes only). It artificially gives the sensation of a manual gearchange when it is perfectly capable of shifting seamlessly. This is the worst kind of gimmick.

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Jul 3, 2008 5:03:26 PM

acrobat: Co-Pilot; Loc: Europe , Hungary; Posts: 250, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2008; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

80-120 km/h in 7th gear: 17,4 s ... I know, I know: overdrive. But pretty useless on a Porsche, don't you think?

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Jul 3, 2008 5:33:51 PM

DaveC: Veteran; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 1068, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2005; Reply to: acrobat

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

An early adopter is not equivalent to an innovator, someone who actually creates a new product or idea. Porsche inevitably compromised PDK when it became a replacement for the Tiptronic. That the transmission can be programmed to provide the driver w/ either a jolt or a "seamless" transition is fully consistent w/ an evolving virtual reality that increasingly shapes our automobiles. Depending upon your embrace of all things technologic it's either a gimmick or "the latest and greatest". I would be reluctant to beta test PDK in my own Porsche, but there will be enough experience accumulated from those who are early adopters that the second generation PDK may take a necessarily different direction.

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Jul 3, 2008 6:38:31 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
Grant said:
BMW has done the same thing with DCT (in it's more aggressive modes only). It artificially gives the sensation of a manual gearchange when it is perfectly capable of shifting seamlessly. This is the worst kind of gimmick.

In fact this is not quite the truth. The engine's rotary inertia can be used to improve acceleration, if only for a slight amount. Pretty much the same as achieving high RPM numbers at an aggressive launch. As you said, the car senses transversal forces and reduces these "jolts" if necessary. There hardly is any necessity for the last ounce of acceleration if you are driving at the limit of adhesion.

I have not driven a PDK-equipped Carrera yet but it is indeed surprising to see the range of applications Porsche wants to cover with this single gearbox. Interesting to add, that AMS did not favour the sports suspension over the regular PASM. According to their tests it does not improve handling significantly, yet the ride is less compliant in all settings.

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Jul 3, 2008 9:12:59 PM

sticky: Newbie; Loc: anaheim hills, ca; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: PinKchampagnE

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
PinKchampagnE said:
Quote:
Misha011 said:
0-200 (15.8) 1sec. slower !? In which situation in real life that 1sec. has any relevance ??

It might be irrelevant in real life but the fact of the matter is that they managed to make the FL version slower than the previous one, which is quite frankly a disappointment, to say the least.

Looking forward to see some other test drives though, especially with manual.

You are smoking crack if you think the facelift is slower. One test from AMS is somehow set in stone?

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Jul 3, 2008 11:45:47 PM

Misha011: Veteran; Loc: Dubai , United Arab Emirates; Posts: 1234, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 28, 2007; Reply to: sticky

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

For all you dissapointed people, from A to B this FL 997S with PDK is definetely faster then FL 997S manual not to speak about previus 997S. Chek the timing on Nordschleife. 0 - 200 is not only irrelevant, it is downright stupid - unless you do drag "racing".

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Jul 4, 2008 1:00:26 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
MarekN said:
Chris Harris made the correct point that it is hypocritical of Porsche to make a box that could be seamless and have it actually punch you in the back just so the driver can feel he is in for some action, and then when the car knows it is turning and such a punch could destabilize it, to have it shift seamlessly. I think this is below Porsche and should be done away with.

I can't believe for one second that any jolt the PDK produces is design intent. If there's a jolt it's because they could not make it go away in the current iteration - simple marketing nonsense. Having said that... I am not issuing any judgement as I have to drive the car to see what's going on.

No, you are not right on that. The PDK purposely gives the jolt to make it seem sportier (in Sport Mode only). Porsche has programmed it NOT to do this (even in Sport Mode) if the G sensors detect that the car is in a corner in which case it's totally seamless, so as to not upset the chassis balance while turning.

BMW has done the same thing with DCT (in it's more aggressive modes only). It artificially gives the sensation of a manual gearchange when it is perfectly capable of shifting seamlessly. This is the worst kind of gimmick.

Grant: if you are right and I'm wrong it's really a gimmick, an unfortunate gimmick. PAG should allow owners to decide what Sport mode provides (in some sort of control menu) and that gimmick should be allowed to be turned off.

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Jul 4, 2008 10:18:22 AM

PinKchampagnE: Pilot; Loc: Fr , France; Posts: 310, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 10, 2007; Reply to: sticky

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
sticky said:
Quote:
PinKchampagnE said:
Quote:
Misha011 said:
0-200 (15.8) 1sec. slower !? In which situation in real life that 1sec. has any relevance ??

It might be irrelevant in real life but the fact of the matter is that they managed to make the FL version slower than the previous one, which is quite frankly a disappointment, to say the least.

Looking forward to see some other test drives though, especially with manual.

You are smoking crack if you think the facelift is slower. One test from AMS is somehow set in stone?

As I said : 'Looking forward to see some other test drives though[...]'...

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Jul 4, 2008 11:00:46 AM

OAB: Co-Pilot; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 155, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 16, 2003; Reply to: Misha011

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
Misha011 said:
0-200 (15.8) 1sec. slower !? In which situation in real life that 1sec. has any relevance ??

For all the nutcases on this forum, it makes a big difference. For all the rest, even 20 sec would do

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Jul 4, 2008 11:04:11 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: PinKchampagnE

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

on italian web-special carrera s is stimated in 4,7 manual and 4,5 with pdk... not 4,5/4,3.....

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Jul 4, 2008 11:15:05 AM

spluff: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 200, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 12, 2006; Reply to: andrea

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

i think 4.7 manual 4.5 is pdk and 4.3 is with launch control

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Jul 4, 2008 11:38:54 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: spluff

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
spluff said:
i think 4.7 manual 4.5 is pdk and 4.3 is with launch control

yes,you are right

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Jul 4, 2008 11:42:22 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: andrea

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Short notice...

Auto Bild tested 997.2 Carrera manual

0-100km/h: 5.0s

NO 0-200km/h time...

Overall impression is positive but, not positive enough IMO.

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Jul 4, 2008 11:57:50 AM

Johnmonkey: Junior; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 93, Gallery; Registered on: May 21, 2008; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Sounds to me like the guys testing have just had one to many "Doughnuts" :-)

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Jul 4, 2008 12:00:56 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Short notice...

Auto Bild tested 997.2 Carrera manual

0-100km/h: 5.0s

NO 0-200km/h time...

Overall impression is positive but, not positive enough IMO.

Hi Kreso
Your comments on this thread are non-positive bordering negative about the 997.2. So what is your conclusion and recommendation? Stay away from this car until MY10 when they might fix the alleged deficiencies? Go to another brand straightawy,like the R8, and forget about the 997? Something else?

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Jul 4, 2008 12:33:13 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Reginos,

No they are not negative but, wise approach...

997.2 is for sure great car but, 100% better then old 997.1?

NO. As you will see from Sport Auto Supertest...

My advice?

Test drive PDK if possible before ordering it! Only then you can find out if it is up to your expectation!

If you are manual enthusiast order 997.2 with manual. You can not go wrog here...

OR... Order 997 Turbo MY2009, manual with optional LSD. Bulletproof M64 engine and updated PTM and PASM. Risk free as possible...

R8? This is the tread about 997.2...

BUT, if you ask me-yes, R8 is a great car. Again test drive one before order...

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Jul 4, 2008 2:22:56 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Short notice...

Auto Bild tested 997.2 Carrera manual

0-100km/h: 5.0s

NO 0-200km/h time...

Overall impression is positive but, not positive enough IMO.

I agree with Kreso, the AMS 0-200 test result is not too impressive... Hopefully, this was a one-off problem and not characteristic of the 997S Mk2 in gerneral.

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Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

Re: 997.2 Carrera S first test in German AMS

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