Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes - Page3

Jun 22, 2008 5:30:46 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Hollli82

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Hollli82 said:

What is with all this concern about braking after a carwash? I guess I was wrong thinking that most of us wash our own cars by hand. So maybe this is one of those problems that is discussed frequently but in reality happens rarely. On the other hand maybe going to the carwash is more common than I thought.

What difference does it make between washing a car at home or taking it to a car wash as far as wet brakes are concerned? In both cases one must dry the brakes by exercising them and the first few applications must be made carefully...

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Jun 22, 2008 8:03:39 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: fiske

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
fiske said:
So, what's the verdict on PCCBs for hard track driving w/ a 2S (and I'm thinking of an '09, just got rid of my '05 at end of lease)? In particular, I'd love to hear about the experience of someone who was traditionally hard on steel brakes (read frequent pad and rotor replacements) who has gone on to aggressively track a car w/ PCCBs. I'm confident that they will perform better, that the lower unsprung weight will be a benefit, and I think I can get comfortable with the initial cost, but if I have to shell out for new rotors even 1/2 as often as I go through steel ones I don't think I'll be very psyched. The idea of getting the PCCBs and removing the ceramic rotors and replacing w/ steel also doesn't seem like a great idea to me from a cost / benefit perspective.

Thanks

I would love to hear from someone that answers exactly fiske's question

I had to change my front steel rotors at 45'000 km and my back rotors at 55'000 km. ( due to my heavy braking on tracks)

I am very tempted by the PCCB, but would not get them if there is a slight chance I will need to replace the rotors during the time I own the car.

Please, any hard track users , give us your experience with PCCB ..

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Jun 22, 2008 3:45:29 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Hollli82

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Hollli82 said:
Quote:

Sure, like all brakes, they don't work effectively that first time you step on the brake coming out of a car wash, but that's it.
Dan

What is with all this concern about braking after a carwash? I guess I was wrong thinking that most of us wash our own cars by hand. So maybe this is one of those problems that is discussed frequently but in reality happens rarely. On the other hand maybe going to the carwash is more common than I thought.

Nope. I have someone handwash my car, who does a better job than I could ever do.

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Jun 22, 2008 9:28:34 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Gnil said:
Quote:
fiske said:
So, what's the verdict on PCCBs for hard track driving w/ a 2S (and I'm thinking of an '09, just got rid of my '05 at end of lease)? In particular, I'd love to hear about the experience of someone who was traditionally hard on steel brakes (read frequent pad and rotor replacements) who has gone on to aggressively track a car w/ PCCBs. I'm confident that they will perform better, that the lower unsprung weight will be a benefit, and I think I can get comfortable with the initial cost, but if I have to shell out for new rotors even 1/2 as often as I go through steel ones I don't think I'll be very psyched. The idea of getting the PCCBs and removing the ceramic rotors and replacing w/ steel also doesn't seem like a great idea to me from a cost / benefit perspective.

Thanks

I would love to hear from someone that answers exactly fiske's question

I had to change my front steel rotors at 45'000 km and my back rotors at 55'000 km. ( due to my heavy braking on tracks)

I am very tempted by the PCCB, but would not get them if there is a slight chance I will need to replace the rotors during the time I own the car.

Please, any hard track users , give us your experience with PCCB ..

Had there been better data on the second generation pccb when I spec'd my Club Coupe I might have ordered them.

There's a slight risk you might damage a pccb disk at the track--off track excurision, flying stones get caught between rotor and pad and you're on your way to damage city. And everyone's different as far as how much wear and tear they put on brakes out on the track or the street for that matter. There's no guaranty, and Porsche certainly doesn't warrant the PCCB rotors on the street much less the track.

Definitely be careful changing wheels--could be an expensive whoops, if you drop a wheel on the PCCB rotor and break it--steel you couldn't hurt that way.

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Jun 23, 2008 10:23:17 AM

JAG007: Junior; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 104, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 16, 2005; Reply to: Paul S in TX

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Hi Paul S,
Do you mean to say you replaced the rotors or went through some other kind of damage?
I understand off-track excursions, that is the same for virtually any braking system picking up stones or something.

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Jun 23, 2008 8:34:04 PM

rantanplan: Pilot; Loc: Stuttgart , Germany; Posts: 355, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2006; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Gnil said:
Quote:
fiske said:

I would love to hear from someone that answers exactly fiske's question

I had to change my front steel rotors at 45'000 km and my back rotors at 55'000 km. ( due to my heavy braking on tracks)

I am very tempted by the PCCB, but would not get them if there is a slight chance I will need to replace the rotors during the time I own the car.

Please, any hard track users , give us your experience with PCCB ..

I mentioned some of my experience with the PCCB in the beginning of this thread, however I have not had my car long enough to really know how long the rotors will last..

as mentioned, my rear pads are almost down after 7600km but the rotors, eventhough they definately dont look brand new anymore are still in very good condition.
Porsche in Stuttgart mentioned that they had to replace rotors of a few GT3s with PCCB after around 40000km and very intensive track use. Thats the reason why most people who participate in the Porsche Sports Cup for instance, do in fact stick to steal breaks.
There is no doubt that PCCB may last a life time when driving on streets. However, tracking is a diiferent story and they will eventually have to be replaced at some point depending on how often they will be tracked..
If I should have to experience the end of my rotors, I think I will switc to the red ones instead of getting new rotors. According to Porsche a new set of red incl. everything will be somewhere around EUR 7000 as opposed to EUR 12000 only for the ceramic rotors...

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Jun 24, 2008 3:44:34 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: rantanplan

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Bottom line is that the steel rotors are terrific, and while the PCCB's are better, the difference is small, while the price difference is very big. It's really about whether you think they're worth it or not. As has been pointed out, they can be costly to replace as well, though under most circumstances, replacement should be a long way down the road.

As far as modern brake rotors not lasting as long as 'vintage' ones, the most likely explanation is the dramatic increase in the weight of the cars. Brakes on modern 911's are doing WAY more work than those on a 1960-1980's 911.

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Jun 24, 2008 4:20:20 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
As far as modern brake rotors not lasting as long as 'vintage' ones, the most likely explanation is the dramatic increase in the weight of the cars. Brakes on modern 911's are doing WAY more work than those on a 1960-1980's 911.

Very true. Not only are the new cars much heavier, they're also much faster (in most cases) - both cause lots of brake wear (brake energy needed is proportional to the weight of the car and proportional to the square of the speed).

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Jun 24, 2008 4:25:44 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Do you really feel the PCCB's lower unsprung weight at each wheel in off track driving? Any comments?

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Jun 24, 2008 4:30:31 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: reginos

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
reginos said:
Do you really feel the PCCB's lower unsprung weight at each wheel in off track driving? Any comments?

Yes, you can feel it if you're paying close attention. This can also be achieved with lighter wheels (and lighter iron 2-piece rotors).

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Jun 24, 2008 6:33:20 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: rantanplan

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
rantanplan said:
Quote:
Gnil said:
Quote:
fiske said:

I would love to hear from someone that answers exactly fiske's question

I had to change my front steel rotors at 45'000 km and my back rotors at 55'000 km. ( due to my heavy braking on tracks)

I am very tempted by the PCCB, but would not get them if there is a slight chance I will need to replace the rotors during the time I own the car.

Please, any hard track users , give us your experience with PCCB ..

I mentioned some of my experience with the PCCB in the beginning of this thread, however I have not had my car long enough to really know how long the rotors will last..

as mentioned, my rear pads are almost down after 7600km but the rotors, eventhough they definately dont look brand new anymore are still in very good condition.
Porsche in Stuttgart mentioned that they had to replace rotors of a few GT3s with PCCB after around 40000km and very intensive track use. Thats the reason why most people who participate in the Porsche Sports Cup for instance, do in fact stick to steal breaks.
There is no doubt that PCCB may last a life time when driving on streets. However, tracking is a diiferent story and they will eventually have to be replaced at some point depending on how often they will be tracked..
If I should have to experience the end of my rotors, I think I will switc to the red ones instead of getting new rotors. According to Porsche a new set of red incl. everything will be somewhere around EUR 7000 as opposed to EUR 12000 only for the ceramic rotors...

It will be very interesting to see what happens to your rotors in the long run.

I do ' only ' 10 track days a year, but I do go hard on the brakes. I wonder if one hour sessions around the Ring is already enough to start to kill them ?!
I think I will not take the chance and now tend to the steel brakes .

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Jun 24, 2008 6:38:09 AM

da duke: Newbie; Loc: Queenstown , New Zealand; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I've tracked the reds and the yellows. Both stop when I want them.

Sure the Yellows offer less weight as an attraction but they come at a cost. If I was buying a new car for track time I would go for the red. The yellows are too expensive at this stage to replace on heavy usuage with tracking.

If i was buying a new 997.2 for Road use I would go the yellow for the same reasons I am buying a Porsche rather than a Nissen GTR in the first place!

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Jun 24, 2008 12:49:26 PM

mdrums: Junior; Loc: Tampa , United States; Posts: 64, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2007; Reply to: joe pruskowski

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I do a lot of track events and have seen PCCB rotors to start pitting and falling apart. PCCB are way to expensive if you are going to track your car as they just do not seem to hold up. Also I am equal times on steel brakes with Pagid pads with a 997S with PCCB's.

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Jun 24, 2008 9:38:25 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
As far as modern brake rotors not lasting as long as 'vintage' ones, the most likely explanation is the dramatic increase in the weight of the cars. Brakes on modern 911's are doing WAY more work than those on a 1960-1980's 911.

Very true. Not only are the new cars much heavier, they're also much faster (in most cases) - both cause lots of brake wear (brake energy needed is proportional to the weight of the car and proportional to the square of the speed).

I agree that modern 911's are faster, and would achieve faster speeds on track laps than older ones, and that that would influence the brake longevity.

Having said that, I noticed something interesting on the Porsche website's Le Mans page that was available a couple of weeks ago (did you see it - with the countdown to Le Mans and info on Porsche's experience at LeMans?). One of the pages had the average speed of the winning cars going back a few decades, and it is basically constant: a straight line over time. I think it was something like 188-189 mph year after year after year, despite all the technological advances. I was surprised by that.

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Jun 24, 2008 10:00:51 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:I noticed something interesting on the Porsche website's Le Mans page that was available a couple of weeks ago (did you see it - with the countdown to Le Mans and info on Porsche's experience at LeMans?). One of the pages had the average speed of the winning cars going back a few decades, and it is basically constant: a straight line over time. I think it was something like 188-189 mph year after year after year, despite all the technological advances. I was surprised by that.

Interesting! I do think they've made the track slower over time though (addition of chicanes, etc.)

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Jun 25, 2008 12:45:59 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:I noticed something interesting on the Porsche website's Le Mans page that was available a couple of weeks ago (did you see it - with the countdown to Le Mans and info on Porsche's experience at LeMans?). One of the pages had the average speed of the winning cars going back a few decades, and it is basically constant: a straight line over time. I think it was something like 188-189 mph year after year after year, despite all the technological advances. I was surprised by that.

Interesting! I do think they've made the track slower over time though (addition of chicanes, etc.)

If you are referring solely to Le Mans, as I understood it, you have to consider that the Hunaudiere straight has been divided by two chicanes to reduce the topspeed. Prior to that, the fastest cars were clocked at beyond 400 kph on that particular track, todays LMP1 cars go up to around 340 kph due to shorter straights. Furthermore, the track layout has been changed as well, e.g. the piece ahead of start/finish. Take a look here:

Le Mans 1977

Le Mans 2006

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Jun 25, 2008 4:47:46 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Thanks Grant and Ferdie: I didn't know that.

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Jun 30, 2008 6:00:35 PM

DrSild: Newbie; Loc: Tallinn, Estonia; Posts: 7, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2008; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Hello. Had a 05' C2S (85,000km before sales) with iron. Have now a GT3 RS with PCCB, since last December. Done 21,000 km, mostly on highways and racetracks (Spa Leipzig the Ring Riga etc). Until recently, no problems and happy with performance. But now must change the rotors because it appears the original PCCB's are not FULL carbon but only carbon-laminated pottery. The thin layer of carbon weaves (told ca 0,5mm) wears off. First sign: you discover three evenly placed black 10-eurocent-size rings on the rotor surface which are uneven and like scratched, whereas the rest of the surface is even, shiny and grey. Thereafter: the layer starts to wear off in black concentric circles just like circles around Saturn. OE replacement rotors cost quite above 12,000 EUR and no warranty. Instead, I went for Movit full carbonceramic rotors (ie whole rotor the same carbon weave material) and will see if it is worth it. If I had to order a car again, I would not pay the extra for PCCB, or would lay the PCCB on shelf and replace with smth cheaper & reliable.

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Jun 30, 2008 6:18:23 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: DrSild

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
DrSild said:Instead, I went for Movit full carbonceramic rotors (ie whole rotor the same carbon weave material) and will see if it is worth it.

How much do these cost? Did you replace all 4 rotors or just front?

Thanks!

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Jun 30, 2008 8:07:14 PM

DrSild: Newbie; Loc: Tallinn, Estonia; Posts: 7, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2008; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Full set with a little discount 8800 EUR.

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Jun 30, 2008 8:38:14 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: DrSild

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
DrSild said:
Full set with a little discount 8800 EUR.

Thanks!

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Jun 30, 2008 10:18:02 PM

cid042: Newbie; Loc: France / Grenoble; Posts: 8, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2007; Reply to: DrSild

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

DrSild,

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, and need to decide what I will do. Changing PCCB rotors every 10 track events isn't an option for me. Could you please tell me where I can buy these rotors and tell me how they perform/last at the track ? (Maybe too early for that... :-))

Cedric

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Jul 1, 2008 12:56:31 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: cid042

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
cid042 said:
DrSild,

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, and need to decide what I will do. Changing PCCB rotors every 10 track events isn't an option for me. Could you please tell me where I can buy these rotors and tell me how they perform/last at the track ? (Maybe too early for that... :-))

Cedric

I found this site on DrSild's mention: http://www.movit.de/

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Jul 1, 2008 8:27:21 PM

cid042: Newbie; Loc: France / Grenoble; Posts: 8, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2007; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Thanks a lot Grant. I also found that site and dropped them a mail. I'm waiting for the reply and will post more info i they answer me.

Cedric

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Jul 1, 2008 9:37:02 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: cid042

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
cid042 said:
Thanks a lot Grant. I also found that site and dropped them a mail. I'm waiting for the reply and will post more info i they answer me.

Cedric

Great - let us know how it goes.

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Jul 2, 2008 5:39:25 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I hesitated a lot about ordering PCCB or not on my new FL 997 S. Thanks for your posts, I have decided against it as I do track my car and could not bare to have to replace the rotors.
On the streets PCCB would be perfect, but on track with heavy braking there is the risk to brake the rotors.... not worth it !

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Jul 2, 2008 9:53:16 AM

FLORENT KAVADAS: Co-Pilot; Loc: Corfu Greece; Posts: 264, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I have not ordered them when I had mine too expensive....

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Jul 2, 2008 3:38:24 PM

cid042: Newbie; Loc: France / Grenoble; Posts: 8, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2007; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Gnil : You are right. What a pity they sell "high performance brakes" that are not track compliant !

Cedric

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Jul 2, 2008 8:51:20 PM

rantanplan: Pilot; Loc: Stuttgart , Germany; Posts: 355, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2006; Reply to: cid042

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
cid042 said:
DrSild,

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, and need to decide what I will do. Changing PCCB rotors every 10 track events isn't an option for me. Could you please tell me where I can buy these rotors and tell me how they perform/last at the track ? (Maybe too early for that... :-))

Cedric

Hi!

are u saying that ur ceramic rotors are also finished after around 20000km with relatively heavy track use?
have you had to change the break pads so far?

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Jul 3, 2008 4:55:22 AM

cnc: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 197, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 21, 2003; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Wrong, been around and around on this decision (different decision each time on prior car)s) and finally decided PCCB is the way to go . Track or not makes no difference, if you can drive properly. Those with PCCB problems are driving on the brakes!

No offense intended, but a strong bias. Based upon my Porsche experiences I insisted on Ceramics on my F cars (over dealer objections) and now they are standard.

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