Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Wife drives mine - Page3

Jun 21, 2008 6:02:14 PM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: MMD

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
MMD said:
Geez..., this PDK v. manual debate is going to go like WW1 trench warfare. Too bad.

Is F1 faster and more fun to watch since PDK?

My bet cars are not faster simply because the shifts are faster. It's also because the driver has more mental energy (more attention) to spend on paying attention to what's happening to the car and road.

Now, if you have PDK in your car, besides going a bit faster don't you think your "involvement" with the car and road will get more satisfying? Sure you can just get lazy or make yourself bored.

Would be interesting to ask F1 drivers if they're "less involved" with driving since servo-assisted gearboxes/clutchs. I bet they will unanimosuly say it has made their job _MORE_ challenging, not less.

So you can say F1 guys are "less involved" because their car are equipped with "PDK?" My bet that's gonna turn out to be a freeking absurd statement.

BTW, Guys also complain about exhaust systems being boring. Guess what? An extremely fast perfectly rev-matched up- or downshift can almost produce an orgasm. I don't think anybody can say that about rowing with a manual; too much work involved.

well said, this so called talk about driving involvement when using manual stick is crap

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Jun 21, 2008 6:59:01 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Italo

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
Italo said:
well said, this so called talk about driving involvement when using manual stick is crap

Sports car are inevitably going to become more and more automated... until they become the equivalent to going to an amusement park and riding on a big dipper. Look no hands!

Me, I am a control freak who gets a lot of satisfaction from doing things myself. I like taking my Turbo for a spin each weekend and manually changing gears on twisty roads - it is a large part of the fun! Automatic cars send me to sleep.

If you want a car that will get you from A to B in the fastest and efficient possible way then PDK will no doubt rock your world. Better still; just get a driver to drive you everywhere, then you don't have to worry about steering, braking etc either.

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Jun 21, 2008 7:06:22 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
MMD said:
So you can say F1 guys are "less involved" because their car are equipped with "PDK?" My bet that's gonna turn out to be a freeking absurd statement.

Who gives a rats-arse about how F1 drivers find their cars to drive?! They are there to entertain US.

The cars are designed to go as fast as possible, and the governing bodies throw in some variables by taking away auto gearboxes, traction control etc. That way it's not just the fastest car that predictably wins every race

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Jun 21, 2008 7:12:50 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
Alex_997TurboRSC said:
Quote:
Italo said:
well said, this so called talk about driving involvement when using manual stick is crap

Sports car are inevitably going to become more and more automated... until they become the equivalent to going to an amusement park and riding on a big dipper. Look no hands!

Me, I am a control freak who gets a lot of satisfaction from doing things myself. I like taking my Turbo for a spin each weekend and manually changing gears on twisty roads - it is a large part of the fun! Automatic cars send me to sleep.

If you want a car that will get you from A to B in the fastest and efficient possible way then PDK will no doubt rock your world. Better still; just get a driver to drive you everywhere, then you don't have to worry about steering, braking etc either.

True. Also, real women know how to handle a stick

.

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Jun 21, 2008 8:44:28 PM

mex99: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 335, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 28, 2008; Reply to: Crash

Re: Wife drives mine

PDK is not an auto - I will drive mine in manual mode over 95% of the time

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Jun 21, 2008 9:49:56 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: mex99

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
mex99 said:
PDK is not an auto - I will drive mine in manual mode over 95% of the time

It's the same as Tiptronic but faster/smoother.

So to me that means 'auto' as not many people drive Tiptronic in manual mode 95% of the time!

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Jun 21, 2008 10:18:40 PM

mex99: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 335, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 28, 2008; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Wife drives mine

I can't agree I'm afraid; the technology is different - tiptronic is a traditional torque converter auto box - PDK is a dual clutch sequential semi auto box that can either:

1. Run itself (ie an automated mode).
2. Be driven as a manual, albeit limited to sequential changes but without the physical foot operated clutch....The function of which is to remove power from the engine during the cog change..... for me that very removal of power is the last thing you would want for an involving sporty drive.

Everyone is going to have to agree to disagree; change is a massive emotional hurdle for most people and is typically avoided by seeking comfort in what is known. I reminded people earlier of the reaction during the change to water cooling with the 996 - the majority now accept this was the right call for the evolution of the 911 - I suspect PDK (especially as it evolves over the coming decade) will be viewed the same in the future. Hopefully I will still be driving Porsche's and talking abut them on the internet...albeit, I bet by a different user interface!!

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Jun 21, 2008 11:01:22 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
Alex_997TurboRSC said:

It's the same as Tiptronic but faster/smoother.

Not quite. With all due respect.

With PDK/SMG in fastest settings power is transmitted to the road far more effectively and impressively than any slushbucket.

It's fun to observe that such power is also probably transmitted more "orgasmically" than amateurs using a manual.

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Jun 21, 2008 11:26:31 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Wife drives mine

Well I get a lot of pleasure from driving but never orgasmed yet. Maybe I'm short shifting too slowly or my wrist action is wrong?

The manual sports shifter is such a pleasure to use I find myself swapping cogs just to enjoy the mechanical precision of the box.

I think I'll go and read a dirty car mag.

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Jun 22, 2008 12:11:37 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Pink Panther

So what?

You now have a choice: if your prefer stick it comes as standard. If you prefer PDK you pay $4K extra. The gearboxes appeal to different people much in the same way some people prefer coupes and others cabs. You can make someone else wrong if you choose, but in this argument it seems like a complete waste of time.

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Jun 22, 2008 12:56:11 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: So what?

Quote:
Le Chef said:
The gearboxes appeal to different people much in the same way some people prefer coupes and others cabs. You can make someone else wrong if you choose, but in this argument it seems like a complete waste of time.

Definite waste of time. I "test drove" a Ferrari F355 F1 but in crummy interstate near city traffic a while ago. Was a real thrill just for the shifting; something I could definitely live with if I ever get an F-car. Got a M3 SMG, love it. My TT is manual and I might keep it that way or get the PDK depending on how I feel after the test drive when it comes becomes avail in the TT and it's time to replace current one.

IOW, PDK vs. manual: not such a big deal. I don't think anybody's gonna regret getting PDK after test driving it and deciding to get it.

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Jun 22, 2008 8:10:20 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14173, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
Well I get a lot of pleasure from driving but never orgasmed yet. Maybe I'm short shifting too slowly or my wrist action is wrong?

The manual sports shifter is such a pleasure to use I find myself swapping cogs just to enjoy the mechanical precision of the box.

I think I'll go and read a dirty car mag.

But with PDK we will have the hands completely free to do...what ever

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Jun 22, 2008 3:27:06 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Gnil

Re: Wife drives mine

Quote:
Gnil said:
Quote:
Pink Panther said:
Well I get a lot of pleasure from driving but never orgasmed yet. Maybe I'm short shifting too slowly or my wrist action is wrong?

The manual sports shifter is such a pleasure to use I find myself swapping cogs just to enjoy the mechanical precision of the box.

I think I'll go and read a dirty car mag.

But with PDK we will have the hands completely free to do...what ever

Depends on how 'jerky' the transmission really is

.

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Jun 23, 2008 11:37:54 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: CarreraTT

Re: PDK Test & Review

I though this write up was interesting:
http://www.nextautos.com/2009-porsche-911-road-test-and-review

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Jun 23, 2008 6:46:59 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: PDK Test & Review

Le Chef tied the whole matter up nicely....

You either enjoy shifting, and the direct mechanical control of engaging power to the drive-wheels with your foot..

Or you "tolerate it" and warm to the prospect of an auto (and please spare me the semantics... I know the difference between clutches and a torque converter, but "auto" for my purposes is any transmission that achieves a shift for you) that allows you to play the paddles, and the fact it's "F1 technology" to prop up your argument to yourself that it's not your wife's fluid-driven automatic... (reminds me of Seinfeld, it's not purse, it's a european carryall....

)

Quite honestly though, getting past the rhetoric, if F1 dictaded tomorrow that all cars run CVT trannies... You've gotta admit that there would that lunatic-fringe of techno-geeks that would be jumping on THAT bandwagon, driven more by the mind-screw of technology and racing than they are by just plain old driving for your own enjoyment.

That's all I've ever tried to hammer home in this debate...
All this talk about which is "better", but it seems to go beyond driving enjoyment, and get caught up in using technology and status-quo-racing nonsense... Technology-alone is a WEAK reason to buy something unless you objectively prefer using it.

If you enjoy it, flip-flap away, soil your pants with perfect roboto-shifts...

But if I don't enjoy it (and I don't, especially BMW's, I could shift a Peterbilt faster than their paddle-slushbox), then why the HELL would I order it just to be on-par with some racing series where driving enjoyment factors NIL into their equation?

Sure, it might be so much faster, so much more effective, so much more all of that... But if it's not as FUN to the driver, then just let it go...

You can drive for enjoyment, or you can drive for speed, or you can drive for both... But everybody will have their own "balance" compromise....

My balance requires that I control the power delivery, that between the clutch and the pressure plate, there's me, physically...

Nothing wrong with that, and there never will be.

If doing it like Schuey gives you a standing hampton, well alrighty then.... Just please try to calm-down at the toll-booths...

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Jun 23, 2008 7:50:26 PM

mex99: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 335, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 28, 2008; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Spyderidol said:
I though this write up was interesting:
http://www.nextautos.com/2009-porsche-911-road-test-and-review

Good review and great pictures

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Jul 8, 2008 6:28:06 AM

Nico997: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 392, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2004; Reply to: mex99

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Nico997 said:
The biggest difference between PDK and manual is in the from 80 to 120 km/h exercise : in fifth gear, the manual is half a second faster than the PDK!

Interestingly until now, I haven't seen any review of the PDK refering to these figures which actually are in Porsche documentation. Only the 4.3 seconds performance from 0 to 100 km/h and the 0.2 second advantage for the PDK over the manual is indicated, but this is just a marketing argument. While on the other side, a 0.5 second advantage for the manual from 80 to 120km/h in fifth gear seems enormous. Any reaction?

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Jul 8, 2008 6:48:09 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Nico997

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Nico997 said:
Quote:
Nico997 said:
The biggest difference between PDK and manual is in the from 80 to 120 km/h exercise : in fifth gear, the manual is half a second faster than the PDK!

Interestingly until now, I haven't seen any review of the PDK refering to these figures which actually are in Porsche documentation. Only the 4.3 seconds performance from 0 to 100 km/h and the 0.2 second advantage for the PDK over the manual is indicated, but this is just a marketing argument. While on the other side, a 0.5 second advantage for the manual from 80 to 120km/h in fifth gear seems enormous. Any reaction?

Why is that? The last I saw the cogs ratios were the same except 2nd or 3rd which was slightly shorter on the PDK. That should provide an advantage to the PDK.

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Jul 8, 2008 6:52:59 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: PDK Test & Review

PDK is also slower in both version in top speed as well(2km/h slower).
Grant and me discussed this issue two weeks ago. Friction in PDK seems to be the case for slower in gear acceleration.

And since Porsche expect around 95% of drivers to drive PDK in D there is no relevance what so ever about in gear acceleration. PDK in D will find a best ratio so there is no need for staying in gear. That means one thing-PDK is actually acting like good Auto box.

Honestly, it is replacement for TIP.

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Jul 8, 2008 10:18:11 AM

Nico997: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 392, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Honestly, it is replacement for TIP.

That's my opinion, too.

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Jul 8, 2008 10:29:33 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Nico997

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Nico997 said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Honestly, it is replacement for TIP.

That's my opinion, too.

I tried the manual C2S yesterday and it is excellent. Gear change is much improved and clutch action too. It is the choice of people who are 100% drivers.

However, the PDK is very good and it has a choice of 3 different programmes in normal sport and sport+, you can override the D function at any time,holds the revs at the red line, you can use it in manual, it has LC etc. IMO it is the better choice for 90%-95% of manual owners in 99% of on-road situations. Whereas the tiptronic was simply rubbish!

Let's put it in a different way 100% of tip owners will be happier with the PDK and 90%-95% of manual owners will be very satisfied given the added convenience too.

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Jul 8, 2008 11:16:55 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Nico997

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Nico997 said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Honestly, it is replacement for TIP.

That's my opinion, too.

I would even say: PDK is the better Tip.

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Jul 8, 2008 12:52:38 PM

pnoble: Co-Pilot; Loc: Short Hills, NJ , United States; Posts: 231, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 18, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: PDK Test & Review

After 100+ responses - finally one from someone who has actually driven the car with both manual and PDK. Thank you, Reginos!

Hopefully, in the coming days there will be a lot more experience-based input on the subject.

I, like many I'm sure, have had to make a decision without being able to test drive PDK (and being told by my dealer that Porsche USA would not allow change to that element of my order after June 23rd).

So although it is 'each to his own', any more actual experience from normal P drivers would be much appreciated since I hold out hope that I could make an order change still if the balance of feedback suggested it.

PS: I'm not a gambler by nature, but based on very limited initial journalistic review input I chose PDK after many years with a manual. I don't track my current 997S nor intend to the next one, but do exercise it as far as normal roads and my modest driving skills allow.

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Jul 8, 2008 2:50:11 PM

WR: Senior; Loc: Taipei , Taiwan; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 26, 2005; Reply to: pnoble

Re: PDK Test & Review

nicely put pnoble, after all, it is FUN that we are all after...

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Jul 8, 2008 3:31:46 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: WR

Re: PDK Test & Review

Was reading my "Car" magazine yesterday. They tested a PDK car & said the stick is better for purists. Forget their exact language but they also didnt like the PDK's push/pull deal. Still cant believe Porsche didnt come out w/ real paddles like in Ferrari's.

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Jul 8, 2008 5:08:33 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
STRADALE said:
Was reading my "Car" magazine yesterday. They tested a PDK car & said the stick is better for purists. Forget their exact language but they also didnt like the PDK's push/pull deal. Still cant believe Porsche didnt come out w/ real paddles like in Ferrari's.

If you are used to different automated manual system, like auto journalists that drive many cars, then you need a few more minutes to get used to the Porsche system. For all of us that only drove manual up to now it takes a few miles/kilometers of driving, which is nothing really. IMO the whole push/pull debate is extremely exagerated.

Porsche S PDK is the ultimate supercar for the price of a premium mainstream car. Drive one an you will be hooked, as they say

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Jul 8, 2008 5:32:32 PM

pnoble: Co-Pilot; Loc: Short Hills, NJ , United States; Posts: 231, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 18, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: PDK Test & Review

Thanks, Reginos. Seems like I probably made the right choice, which is good since I probably can't change it now, anyhow!

Any further input on your PDK experience in the different modes?

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Jul 8, 2008 5:42:00 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: pnoble

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
pnoble said:
Thanks, Reginos. Seems like I probably made the right choice, which is good since I probably can't change it now, anyhow!

Any further input on your PDK experience in the different modes?

It's like the various reviewers say. In normal mode it is "economy" oriented getting into a higher gear asap unless you press on deliberately. In Sport it holds gears more and in Sport+ it is very racy and more abrupt on purpose with more pronounced blips on downchanges. So you pick and choose. Launch Control is fantastic.
Honestly you must be "heel and toe hero" and track driver "par excellence" (excuse my French)to beat PDK by using a manual gearbox. This is my humble opinion anyway.

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Jul 8, 2008 8:01:20 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: reginos

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Honestly you must be "heel and toe hero" and track driver "par excellence" (excuse my French)to beat PDK by using a manual gearbox. This is my humble opinion anyway.

But what happens if I don't want to beat PDK? Maybe I'm just happy enjoying stick shift.

If your only criteria is to be faster, then choose PDK, but if your criteria is enjoyment then choose stick.

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Jul 8, 2008 8:07:40 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: PDK Test & Review

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
Honestly you must be "heel and toe hero" and track driver "par excellence" (excuse my French)to beat PDK by using a manual gearbox. This is my humble opinion anyway.

But what happens if I don't want to beat PDK? Maybe I'm just happy enjoying stick shift.

If your only criteria is to be faster, then choose PDK, but if your criteria is enjoyment then choose stick.

Actually, the manual(stick) I tried was much much improved with nicer, precise change and a very smooth and progressive clutch. It was a joy to use too. Because I drive manual and I can compare, they must have done some unannounced homework in this area too.

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