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Jun 17, 2008 11:08:29 AM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Adam2S said:
As you slow down your body is thrown forward, making the most natural movement possible to push forward on the stick to change down.
As you accelerate you are thrown back into the seat making the most natural movement possible to pull back on the stick to change up.
Maybe we need to change the accelerator pedal so that we can pull up with our right foot instead of pushing down when we accelerate?
Jun 17, 2008 11:38:38 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
How about this:
-PDK is replacement for TIP, not for manual(FACT)
-PDK is aimed more to TIP costumers then to manual costumers(FACT)
-PDK driver is expected to drive 98% of time in auto mode(be it normal, Sport or Sport Plus)(FACT)
-PDK is prone to overriding manual gearchange input despite manual mode(FACT-since not only my Motorpresse friend but, two independant journalist experienced that first hand)
-PDK in auto mode changes gears the way you would never do manually(FACT-sometimes it changes in the middle of fast corner, sometimes two gears down-then up one gear-as PDKs AI do not know what to do. It is gearbox capable of learning do not forget that)
So, PDK or manual? If you are true sportscar enthusiast and really like total control then only one choice-manual.
On the other hand if you will drive your 997 around traffic a lot and like less demanding approach PDK is excellent choice.
Just one thing-PDK is new. How reliable will it be? Two press cars already experinced some problems(PDK override manual input after spirited driving and even restarting the car did not solve the problem)...
True, true, true, and true. Nuf said.
PD: Never seizes to amaze me how people can get so worked up in arguments over such things they haven't even tried yet and which are small things on the big picture... its not natural!. yes it is!!... no its not!!!.... I for one won't know until I try it. Relax people.
Jun 17, 2008 11:44:54 AM
- KresoF1
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Carlos from Spain
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
How about this:
-PDK is replacement for TIP, not for manual(FACT)
-PDK is aimed more to TIP costumers then to manual costumers(FACT)
-PDK driver is expected to drive 98% of time in auto mode(be it normal, Sport or Sport Plus)(FACT)
-PDK is prone to overriding manual gearchange input despite manual mode(FACT-since not only my Motorpresse friend but, two independant journalist experienced that first hand)
-PDK in auto mode changes gears the way you would never do manually(FACT-sometimes it changes in the middle of fast corner, sometimes two gears down-then up one gear-as PDKs AI do not know what to do. It is gearbox capable of learning do not forget that)
So, PDK or manual? If you are true sportscar enthusiast and really like total control then only one choice-manual.
On the other hand if you will drive your 997 around traffic a lot and like less demanding approach PDK is excellent choice.
Just one thing-PDK is new. How reliable will it be? Two press cars already experinced some problems(PDK override manual input after spirited driving and even restarting the car did not solve the problem)...
What you say is true but I expect a large number of manual customers who were never attracted by tip in the past and very rightly so, to go to PDK in spite of some negatives compared to a manual. My reference point for PDK as I have not driven it, is the DSG on the Golf GTI.
Remember that for 99% of drivers even good and fast road drivers are not into racing cars and the NBR etc and many of the issues you raise are not so relevant for them. Some really hardcore drivers might be put off by the PDK.Such people are few in real life, surely fewer than what they claim to be on the internet.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
How about this:
-PDK is replacement for TIP, not for manual(FACT)
-PDK is aimed more to TIP costumers then to manual costumers(FACT)
-PDK driver is expected to drive 98% of time in auto mode(be it normal, Sport or Sport Plus)(FACT)
-PDK is prone to overriding manual gearchange input despite manual mode(FACT-since not only my Motorpresse friend but, two independant journalist experienced that first hand)
-PDK in auto mode changes gears the way you would never do manually(FACT-sometimes it changes in the middle of fast corner, sometimes two gears down-then up one gear-as PDKs AI do not know what to do. It is gearbox capable of learning do not forget that)
Kreso : Im not sure where you magic'd up some of your facts from on this one? I am very sure that PDK drivers are likely to spend 98%+ of their time in MANUAL NOT AUTO. In the 4 years I had my SMG cars I would say I spent <30mins in total ever in auto.
If PDK does change gears up in the manual mode then something is wrong. The only time the BMW SMG box changes automatically when in manual is when you are going too slow for the high gear you have selected i.e. It will automatically change down when decellerating to avoid a stall by being in a too high gear - In this case its a good thing to do and acceptable IMHO.
I really hope PDK is a true sequential and not a tip replacement.
For pure performance and driving thrills :
Sequential > Manual > Auto / Tip
The auto settings on sequential boxes are horrible - offering a poor compromise - not as smooth as an auto and not as performant or involving as a manual or manual sequential.
PDK really should not be a replacement for Tip although the fact the Porsche have discontinued the Tip one could interpret it this way for sure. PDK should be the only option IMHO, but there are plenty of old school die hard manual lovers so for that reason its a bold move for a manufacturer to not offer manual. If you view sequential gearboxes as automatics then you have royally missed the point of what they are all about.
Test drive required by all and we have yet to see for sure 100% how true a sequential PDK turns out to be. Everybody will have their own opinion and preference for auto / manual / sequential, but a sequential is superior techonology (FACT) and consistently faster (FACT) even in the hands of pro-drivers - hence why its standard on F1 cars and the likes...
Many people didnt like the loss of the involvement of double declutching on gear changes, but the fact is it was faster not to do so and soon became the norm.
Jun 17, 2008 12:12:56 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: PDK Test & Review
I agree with KresoF1's conclusions and Carlos from Spain's approach/attitude.
I would add one thing. PDK is designed to replace the Tiptronic S transmission not the manual gearbox. So all the analysis about which way your body is moving etc just seems a bit over the top for a transmission that is designed for comfort/convenience rather than out and out performance.
After all, with a manual gearbox, we move the gear lever forwards or backwards as required whether or not our bodies are moving forwards or backwards in the same direction e.g. shifting the gear lever down from 5th to 4th (or from 3rd to 2nd) when slowing down is the opposite direction from the movement of the body. This blows a rather big hole in this argument.
Overall, I just think it comes down to what people have become used to with other shifting mechanisms. But just because we do it one way, it doesn't mean it's better or right, just different IMHO. It will just take a little getting used to. I just wouldn't put a mental block in my head from now...better to keep an open mind. I just think people should relax and give it a try before forming a view.
I would add one thing. PDK is designed to replace the Tiptronic S transmission not the manual gearbox. So all the analysis about which way your body is moving etc just seems a bit over the top for a transmission that is designed for comfort/convenience rather than out and out performance.
After all, with a manual gearbox, we move the gear lever forwards or backwards as required whether or not our bodies are moving forwards or backwards in the same direction e.g. shifting the gear lever down from 5th to 4th (or from 3rd to 2nd) when slowing down is the opposite direction from the movement of the body. This blows a rather big hole in this argument.
Overall, I just think it comes down to what people have become used to with other shifting mechanisms. But just because we do it one way, it doesn't mean it's better or right, just different IMHO. It will just take a little getting used to. I just wouldn't put a mental block in my head from now...better to keep an open mind. I just think people should relax and give it a try before forming a view.
Jun 17, 2008 12:33:49 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: PDK Test & Review
According to this:
http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=grdfp&preview=1&_x=1#/page6/
The reasons for the PDK rocker switches operating in the directions they do is (1) PAG wanted to it to work in the way that Tiptronic S customers are used to, and (2) Walter Rohrl wanted it this way on a previous prototype of the Carrera GT.
http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=grdfp&preview=1&_x=1#/page6/
The reasons for the PDK rocker switches operating in the directions they do is (1) PAG wanted to it to work in the way that Tiptronic S customers are used to, and (2) Walter Rohrl wanted it this way on a previous prototype of the Carrera GT.
Jun 17, 2008 12:39:17 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
But just because we do it one way, it doesn't mean it's better or right, just different IMHO. It will just take a little getting used to.
Just like we got used to take the ignition key into our left hand
Reminds me a bit of the old saying we have over here: what the farmer doesn't know he won't eat
Glad that I'm a "manual guy" myself
though at least I will test the PDK for sure just to get an impression 
Jun 17, 2008 12:50:37 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: PDK Test & Review
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Adam2S said: PDK should be the only option IMHO,
You need to get out more. There are MANY drivers who consider manual shifting as an integral part of the joy of driving a sportcar and the driver involvement it brings, and no matter how good the secuential is at shifting the gears for you will still prefer the manual because having fun and enjoying driving the sportcar is what is important to them.
I for one don't think that either the manual or the auto should be the only choice, I'd rather let the driver of the car decide for himself what he prefers. The other drivers I hang out with still prefer the manual but that changes form people to people and place to place depending on the age group, type of driving you do, were you drive (roads, traffic, etc). Even though for myself I enjoy a manual car more (track or street) I'm just glad that Porsche if finally bringging a decent up to date auto tranny option as opposed as the outdated torque converter Tip they have been offered till now. Since the PDK should be much imporved over the Tip for a sportcar, there should be a greater % of buyers that will now choose the PDK over the manual but there is still a large percent that will stay for the manual because its not a matter of throttle feel or shift-times of the PDK over the Tip, but rather the clutch or no clutch dilema.
Jun 17, 2008 2:14:01 PM
- MMD
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Carlos from Spain
Re: PDK Test & Review
Funny because I have a P-car guy acquaintance who tracks his car occasionally and yet he still can't shift (by my definition). When I rode in his car there's always a sight jerk in his up-shifting and he couldn't seem to rev-match perfectly on the easiest downshift; there's always clutch slip. I let him drive my car once and that was the last time because my clutch and tranny was getting a workout.
This leads me to wonder how many "manual guys" get perfectly smooth rev-matched shifts each and every time. I consider it essential to shift _perfectly_ everytime or else you're just abusing the car.
Sad to think those guys might never know the thrill of an strong and positive, extremely fast, perfectly rev-matched up and down shift from a PDK gearbox (not a slush-bucket); yet my bet is they claim "driver involvement" is the reason they would never go for PDK. I'm talking non-professional drivers and non-weekly track rats here.
This leads me to wonder how many "manual guys" get perfectly smooth rev-matched shifts each and every time. I consider it essential to shift _perfectly_ everytime or else you're just abusing the car.
Sad to think those guys might never know the thrill of an strong and positive, extremely fast, perfectly rev-matched up and down shift from a PDK gearbox (not a slush-bucket); yet my bet is they claim "driver involvement" is the reason they would never go for PDK. I'm talking non-professional drivers and non-weekly track rats here.
Jun 17, 2008 2:14:56 PM
- 69bossnine
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Carlos from Spain
Re: PDK Test & Review
Adam2S.... If total performance were the only measuring stick, if technological advancements were only graded by stopwatches and spec sheets, then we'd all be riding motorcycles and laughing at the barbarian dolts driving 4-wheel cars...
You just don't get it.. There's a tipping-point, a point of balance where technology and driver-involvement are in harmony... Many drivers, MANY, feel that taking the clutching away from the human left leg tips that balance to the negative... The slight gain in performance is outweighed by the loss of involvement, skill and control.
There's no wrong or right, but everyone's got their tipping point when it comes to "technology" robbing bits and pieces of the driving experience. Would you enjoy a car that does IT ALL for you? After all, it'd be faster than you could ever accomplish yourself, and a technological marvel... Is that what would give you a stiffy?? Then alright, knock yourself out...
But for us do-it-yourselfers, you can take the PDK and have your little geek-races with it, twiddling your little paddles and shrieking in the pleasure of how fast your car accomplishes the details FOR YOU. It's like driving for the athletically challenged, technology to assist those who can't walk and chew gum...
I like technology when it improves my overall driving experience. But when it HIJACKS the experience, because it can do it better/faster than me.... Well, I may as well just be sitting on the side of the road watching robots race at that point.
Everybody has their tipping-point with technology, and if you enjoy driving the PDK, more power to you.
But the demise of the manual tranny was predicted over 75 years ago, and it never happened... I still don't see it happening... Eliminate true-manuals from the lineup, and see what happens to PAG...
You just don't get it.. There's a tipping-point, a point of balance where technology and driver-involvement are in harmony... Many drivers, MANY, feel that taking the clutching away from the human left leg tips that balance to the negative... The slight gain in performance is outweighed by the loss of involvement, skill and control.
There's no wrong or right, but everyone's got their tipping point when it comes to "technology" robbing bits and pieces of the driving experience. Would you enjoy a car that does IT ALL for you? After all, it'd be faster than you could ever accomplish yourself, and a technological marvel... Is that what would give you a stiffy?? Then alright, knock yourself out...
But for us do-it-yourselfers, you can take the PDK and have your little geek-races with it, twiddling your little paddles and shrieking in the pleasure of how fast your car accomplishes the details FOR YOU. It's like driving for the athletically challenged, technology to assist those who can't walk and chew gum...
I like technology when it improves my overall driving experience. But when it HIJACKS the experience, because it can do it better/faster than me.... Well, I may as well just be sitting on the side of the road watching robots race at that point.
Everybody has their tipping-point with technology, and if you enjoy driving the PDK, more power to you.
But the demise of the manual tranny was predicted over 75 years ago, and it never happened... I still don't see it happening... Eliminate true-manuals from the lineup, and see what happens to PAG...
Jun 17, 2008 2:21:12 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:
Funny because I have a P-car guy acquaintance who tracks his car occasionally and yet he still can't shift (by my definition). When I rode in his car there's always a sight jerk in his up-shifting and he couldn't seem to rev-match perfectly on the easiest downshift; there's always clutch slip. I let him drive my car once and that was the last time because my clutch and tranny was getting a workout.
This leads me to wonder how many "manual guys" get perfectly smooth rev-matched shifts each and every time. I consider it essential to shift _perfectly_ everytime or else you're just abusing the car.
Sad to think those guys might never know the thrill of an strong and positive, extremely fast, perfectly rev-matched up and down shift from a PDK gearbox (not a slush-bucket); yet my bet is they claim "driver involvement" is the reason they would never go for PDK. I'm talking non-professional drivers and non-weekly track rats here.
Life aint perfect, and that's where the fun comes in.... The chase, the hunt for perfection...
Once you give up, and build a machine that does your perfection for you, well.... The fun's over, what's left to work on?
BTW, all cars eventually wear out, and PDK's are KNOWN to wear out their clutches faster than even poorly-driven manuals... So I fail to see the point. I can't tell if you're endorsing PDK, or not.
Regarding your friend, he may be hopelessly clumsy and uncoordinated. He may never get it together. That's o.k., not everybody is wired like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Maybe PDK would indeed be a better choice for him, if shifting himself is more chore/battle than joy/natural.
Choices are good..
But when certain folks suggest that MY choice be replaced by THEIRS... I get grumpy... It reeks of communist elitism...
Jun 17, 2008 2:30:39 PM
- devo
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Adam2S.... If total performance were the only measuring stick, if technological advancements were only graded by stopwatches and spec sheets, then we'd all be riding motorcycles and laughing at the barbarian dolts driving 4-wheel cars...
You just don't get it.. There's a tipping-point, a point of balance where technology and driver-involvement are in harmony... Many drivers, MANY, feel that taking the clutching away from the human left leg tips that balance to the negative... The slight gain in performance is outweighed by the loss of involvement, skill and control.
There's no wrong or right, but everyone's got their tipping point when it comes to "technology" robbing bits and pieces of the driving experience. Would you enjoy a car that does IT ALL for you? After all, it'd be faster than you could ever accomplish yourself, and a technological marvel... Is that what would give you a stiffy?? Then alright, knock yourself out...
But for us do-it-yourselfers, you can take the PDK and have your little geek-races with it, twiddling your little paddles and shrieking in the pleasure of how fast your car accomplishes the details FOR YOU. It's like driving for the athletically challenged, technology to assist those who can't walk and chew gum...
I like technology when it improves my overall driving experience. But when it HIJACKS the experience, because it can do it better/faster than me.... Well, I may as well just be sitting on the side of the road watching robots race at that point.
Everybody has their tipping-point with technology, and if you enjoy driving the PDK, more power to you.
But the demise of the manual tranny was predicted over 75 years ago, and it never happened... I still don't see it happening... Eliminate true-manuals from the lineup, and see what happens to PAG...
As usual, Bossnine, very well said.
I believe that as time passes and the novelty of PDK, DSG, DCT, SMG, WTF, wanes a bit, the "old fashioned" (true) manual gear box will make a modest come back.
More speakers anyone?
Jun 17, 2008 2:41:22 PM
- KresoF1
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Re: PDK Test & Review
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69bossnine said:
BTW, all cars eventually wear out, and PDK's are KNOWN to wear out their clutches faster than even poorly-driven manuals... So I fail to see the point. I can't tell if you're endorsing PDK, or not.
I usually agree fully with you but, this time you are wrong or you mistaken PDK(DCT) for sequential manual. Clutches on DCT transmission should last much longer then clutch on manual(or specially sequential manual!). For example clutches on M3s M-DKG should last at least 150.000km according to BMW. These are wet clutches and they are build to last.
Jun 17, 2008 2:42:46 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Thanks Devo... I'll probably ruffle a few feathers with certain terms I used in relation to PDK fans, but dammit, I'm sick of being told I'm old-school just because I like to control my car myself... I always thought that was the POINT of enthusiast driving.. Lap times are the point of competetive racing, and that's not what any of these cars are being used for.
The Manual vs. PDK debate, to me, is like booking a survivalists convention on the same weekend, at the same venue, as a Star Trek convention... When a guy with fake pointed ears and a skin-tight blue shirt approaches me and says "you're illogical", I don't know whether to fight or just go home...
The Manual vs. PDK debate, to me, is like booking a survivalists convention on the same weekend, at the same venue, as a Star Trek convention... When a guy with fake pointed ears and a skin-tight blue shirt approaches me and says "you're illogical", I don't know whether to fight or just go home...
Jun 17, 2008 2:45:42 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
69bossnine said:
BTW, all cars eventually wear out, and PDK's are KNOWN to wear out their clutches faster than even poorly-driven manuals... So I fail to see the point. I can't tell if you're endorsing PDK, or not.
I usually agree fully with you but, this time you are wrong or you mistaken PDK(DCT) for sequential manual. Clutches on DCT transmission should last much longer then clutch on manual(or specially sequential manual!). For example clutches on M3s M-DKG should last at least 150.000km according to BMW. These are wet clutches and they are build to last.
I stand corrected... Obviously, these technologies are not something I stay up late reading-up on...
Clutches are easy to replace in a manual... What the heck, should we stop using our brakes now too? Abuse!!!
And watch out for your tires, they may wear! LOL!!!
Jun 17, 2008 2:47:30 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:
This leads me to wonder how many "manual guys" get perfectly smooth rev-matched shifts each and every time. I consider it essential to shift _perfectly_ everytime or else you're just abusing the car.
Think about it. A gearbox that is designed by the manufacturer for the mainstream population's use and is built for that use and tolerances, why would normal shifting by the average driver be abuse? you may have to revise that idea of thinking that you have to shift to perfection every single time or you are abusing the tranny, that is nonsense, otherwise every manual gearbox in the world gets abused
Quote:
MMD said:Sad to think those guys might never know the thrill of an strong and positive, extremely fast, perfectly rev-matched up and down shift from a PDK gearbox (not a slush-bucket); yet my bet is they claim "driver involvement" is the reason they would never go for PDK. I'm talking non-professional drivers and non-weekly track rats here.
Why would they never know how? the computer does it for the driver 100% exact and the same way every single time so all you have to do to experience it is flip a paddle or press a button
... if anything, those that can't drive a manual may never know the "thrill of an strong and positive, extremely fast, perfectly rev-matched up and down shift" executed by the driver on a manual gearbox and the satisfaction, acomplishment and involvement of doing it himself. But not the other way around. You don't make sense.
As to driver involvement, you don't have to match-rev like Walter Rorhl on a rally car on a dirt track of a WRC to enjoy a the driver involvement of a manual box, you just have to be able to manually shift, just like you don't need to be Schumacher to be able to enjoy a driving sportcar.
Jun 17, 2008 2:49:55 PM
- devo
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Jun 17, 2008 2:54:48 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
Enzo911 said:
Nring: Porsche says 7.50 for Carrera S PDK SporChrono
In the real world that is 8.00-7.58min in hands of von Saurma.
Rohrl times are simply said not very objective point of reference(same about Suzuki in Godzilla)...
Von Saurma did an 8:05 with the MkI 997S-20mm back in 2005, so an 8:00 aprox for the 385HP MKII should sound about right.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
temm said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkIUUp6epE&feature=related
Since Porsche is using the forward - down, back - up on the race cars there must be something to it, don't ya think
Perhaps we are not "Sebastiaan Bleekemolen in wet conditions"
Jun 17, 2008 3:12:31 PM
- Ferdie
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Re: PDK Test & Review
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69bossnine said:
Adam2S.... If total performance were the only measuring stick, if technological advancements were only graded by stopwatches and spec sheets, then we'd all be riding motorcycles and laughing at the barbarian dolts driving 4-wheel cars...
Wrong. We would all driving shifter karts at the track and all that debate will be gone.
I prefer variety over monoculture, so I'd like to have more than one gearbox in my lineup. In fact I would never consider the average Mercedes without an automatic transmission (save the AMG derivates).
Jun 17, 2008 3:16:31 PM
- devo
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Carlos from Spain
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
Enzo911 said:
Nring: Porsche says 7.50 for Carrera S PDK SporChrono
In the real world that is 8.00-7.58min in hands of von Saurma.
Rohrl times are simply said not very objective point of reference(same about Suzuki in Godzilla)...
Von Saurma did an 8:05 with the MkI 997S-20mm back in 2005, so an 8:00 aprox for the 385HP MKII should sound about right.
Rohrl ran a 7:59 with X51. I wonder if PASM with the 20mm susp. and PDK will bring us closer to a 7:55-7:56 without Rohrl driving.
Jun 17, 2008 3:51:03 PM
- MMD
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Carlos from Spain
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
why would normal shifting by the average driver be abuse? you may have to revise that idea of thinking that you have to shift to perfection every single time or you are abusing the tranny, that is nonsense, otherwise every manual gearbox in the world gets abused
FWIW, we're all different. When I take the P car out I like to drive near perfection. It's like a mathematical equation. I consider clutch slip, due to over or under revving or missed shifts, or the slightest jerk a _lapse_ in attention. A missed shot, an imperfect score. In situation like that, when you're tired or bored, your "driver involvement" might as well zero.
Just my opinion. Very unaesthetic feeling when car and driver can't interact seamlessly. Anything less than that is no good.
That's why PDK and SMG are so fascinating for me. There's another lever of perfect attention that can be applied to what the car is doing because the mental energy is available. It was not spent on slinging and rowing.
Different attitudes I guess... .
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
Enzo911 said:
Nring: Porsche says 7.50 for Carrera S PDK SporChrono
In the real world that is 8.00-7.58min in hands of von Saurma.
Rohrl times are simply said not very objective point of reference(same about Suzuki in Godzilla)...
According to Chris Harris in that fantastic DR video...
8.02 Carrera S MKI Manual (W.Rohrl 7.58, SportAuto 8.05)
7.58 Carrera S MKII Manual
7.50 Carrera S MKII PDK Sport Plus+ Pilot Sport Cup
http://www.drivers-republic.com/videos/index.cfm?VideoID=ca54a1f345754e4295f3e0ef2549af56#videos
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