Jun 16, 2008 1:36:38 PM
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Ron (Houston)
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- Loc: Houston, TX , United States
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997
Language: English
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Jun 16, 2008 2:01:26 PM
- devo
- Veteran
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- Loc: NY , United States
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- Registered on: Jan 31, 2006
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Edmunds said:
No doubt there's merit in the reasoning, but the end result is an awkward, inelegant solution that's devoid of the tactile sensations that we think are critical to the Porsche brand. The action of the console-mounted shift lever also feels counterintuitive because you push the lever forward to shift up and pull it back to shift down. This feels particularly odd under braking, when your natural momentum is pushing your body forward even as you're trying to pull the lever backwards.
Achleitner admits that it would be relatively simple to develop alternative control systems for the PDK and that shift paddles might be considered for high-performance versions of the new 911, such as the GT3. Let's hope so.
Great link. Enough said...
Re: PDK Test & Review
This test does not answer the most important question about the PDK : what are the diffenrences between the Porsche-PDK and the Audi-DSG, especially about the engine braking, which is a desaster in the Audi. The Porsche will not be track-compatible if is not significantly better than the Audi-system.
Carlos
Carlos
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
CarlosF said:
...what are the differences between the Porsche-PDK and the Audi-DSG, especially about the engine braking, which is a disaster in the Audi.
Carlos
I'm missing something here - since all double clutch systems are still solid connections with the crankshaft/engine, why is there a feeling that engine braking is in any way different from that in a manual?
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
CarlosF said:
This test does not answer the most important question about the PDK : what are the diffenrences between the Porsche-PDK and the Audi-DSG, especially about the engine braking, which is a desaster in the Audi. The Porsche will not be track-compatible if is not significantly better than the Audi-system.
Carlos
I just hope it will not change gear too often against one's will ( just to optimise the fuel consuption ). If it does the engine-braking might be bad.
But I do hope that with on the 'track mode' linked with chrono sports plus it will be good.
Jun 16, 2008 3:57:43 PM
- Grant
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: Denver, CO , United States
- Posts: 12588, Gallery
- Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
CarlosF said:
This test does not answer the most important question about the PDK : what are the diffenrences between the Porsche-PDK and the Audi-DSG, especially about the engine braking, which is a desaster in the Audi. The Porsche will not be track-compatible if is not significantly better than the Audi-system.
Carlos
I remember watching Fifth Gear video in which they compare Audi TT 2.0 TFSI (with 200 hp, front-wheel drive) with DSG and manuel.
DSG (s-tronic) equipped car was faster by 0.400 seconds in the hands of Vicky on a race track. This proves that even the DSG system of Audi is not too slow or too bad for track type of driving, IMO.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:
Holy Cow. Think of it this way. For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Push forward to go from 2 to 3, 4 to 5 (upshift)
Pull back to go 3 to 2, 5 to 4 (downshift)
All sorts of variations exist.
Only an [beep] would not be able to acclimatize with any shifting pattern on any car within seconds!
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
MMD said:
Holy Cow. Think of it this way. For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Push forward to go from 2 to 3, 4 to 5 (upshift)
Pull back to go 3 to 2, 5 to 4 (downshift)
All sorts of variations exist.
Only an [beep] would not be able to acclimatize with any shifting pattern on any car within seconds!
Yes, very obvious what you say and complicated.
Speaking from experience with my SMG, it is very important to have the "down" be forward and the "up" be backward.
Basic intuition get it?
There's not alot of time to think which gear you're in when using SMG and going fast.
Duh. Forward is down, backward is up. Like left is left and right is right: instant and intuitive.
Why is this intuitive? Reinforcement on a massive scale. You're slowing down to a stop at a light and you've got time to realize what's going on. Guess what, you're shoving the stick forward to DOWNshift. How many times do you do that in a lifetime of driving? Ten million?
All the other stuff you mention is MANUAL gear box shift pattern complexity (makes driving slower too BTW).
SMG and PDK are about simplifying one aspect (power transmission to road) so you can pay attention to other aspects of driving.
Who's to say one day, when things are off, when you're going 90 in a turn you won't make a mistake in the height of the moment with the Porsche PDK and shove the stick forward when you intend to downshift but instead you upshift, and get in trouble, because of the counterintuitive direction of the P-car?
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
MMD said:
Holy Cow. Think of it this way. For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Push forward to go from 2 to 3, 4 to 5 (upshift)
Pull back to go 3 to 2, 5 to 4 (downshift)
All sorts of variations exist.
Only an [beep] would not be able to acclimatize with any shifting pattern on any car within seconds!
Yes, very obvious what you say and complicated.
Speaking from experience with my SMG, it is very important to have the "down" be forward and the "up" be backward.
Basic intuition get it?
There's not alot of time to think which gear you're in when using SMG and going fast.
Duh. Forward is down, backward is up. Like left is left and right is right: instant and intuitive.
Why is this intuitive? Reinforcement on a massive scale. You're slowing down to a stop at a light and you've got time to realize what's going on. Guess what, you're shoving the stick forward to DOWNshift. How many times do you do that in a lifetime of driving? Ten million?
All the other stuff you mention is MANUAL gear box shift pattern complexity (makes driving slower too BTW).
SMG and PDK are about simplifying one aspect (power transmission to road) so you can pay attention to other aspects of driving.
Who's to say one day, when things are off, when you're going 90 in a turn you won't make a mistake in the height of the moment with the Porsche PDK and shove the stick forward when you intend to downshift but instead you upshift, and get in trouble, because of the counterintuitive direction of the P-car?
What you say could be true if a given person drove many different cars on a daily basis. Like auto journalists btw, who keep writing that they get confused.
If I drive my PDK I'll get used to it and My reference point won't be the SMG. Similarly, the SMG driver wouldn't care about the PDK pattern. In your case if you have to alternate between the PDK and the SMG systems, well it might be more complicated but again nothing that the human brain cannot adjust to quickly.
For example I drive an automated manual sometimes where pull down is change down which in your opinion is counterintuitive. For me it is very natural because move up is move forward i.e. the upchange is push forward, move down is pulling backwards towards myself like applying the reins to a horse i.e. downchange.
There are no rights and wrongs in this issue just acquired habits that can very well change easily.
Anyway, when we try the PDK system we can talk again! Have fun!
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
reginos said:
There are no rights and wrongs in this issue just acquired habits that can very well change easily.
Anyway, when we try the PDK system we can talk again! Have fun!
I strongly disagree about the "acquired habits" part especially when things become stressful or very bizzy.
I totally agree with the "Have fun" and "talk again" part.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
reginos said:
There are no rights and wrongs in this issue just acquired habits that can very well change easily.
Anyway, when we try the PDK system we can talk again! Have fun!
I strongly disagree about the "acquired habits" part especially when things become stressful or very bizzy.
I totally agree with the "Have fun" and "talk again" part.
Cheers
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Wrong. For probably every stick shift I've ever learned on, approaching a hot corner in third I pull the gear lever back towards me to DOWNshift. (Despite the fact that my simultaneous, hard braking is launching my body forward, I somehow manage to overpower the g-forces and get the lever back into 2nd in time!!!)
Wait!!!! Wait!! What if I'm I'm in FOURTH at the end of the main straight and then have to push the lever FORWARD to downshift to third? Well, that will be easier because the g-forces will launch me forward even faster ...... but then I might get confused by backward - forward - backward - backward - forward ...what?, Which way?
What a stupid debate over your body going forward while moving the lever backward. In a 6-speed, this already happens maybe 4 -6 times a lap and nobody gets a nosebleed from it.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
CarreraTT said:
Quote:
For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Wrong. For probably every stick shift I've ever learned on, approaching a hot corner in third I pull the gear lever back towards me to DOWNshift. (Despite the fact that my simultaneous, hard braking is launching my body forward, I somehow manage to overpower the g-forces and get the lever back into 2nd in time!!!)
Wait!!!! Wait!! What if I'm I'm in FOURTH at the end of the main straight and then have to push the lever FORWARD to downshift to third? Well, that will be easier because the g-forces will launch me forward even faster ...... but then I might get confused by backward - forward - backward - backward - forward ...what?, Which way?
What a stupid debate over your body going forward while moving the lever backward. In a 6-speed, this already happens maybe 4 -6 times a lap and nobody gets a nosebleed from it.
I could not have stated it any better. Priceless.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
CarreraTT said:
Quote:
For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Wrong. For probably every stick shift I've ever learned on, approaching a hot corner in third I pull the gear lever back towards me to DOWNshift.
Gimme a break. When you're 16 years old, learning to drive a stick, rolling to a red light, where's the downshift? It's forward.
After the light turns green where's the upshift? It's back.
Done.
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
CarreraTT said:
Quote:
For probably every stick shift anybody's ever learned on the __basic__ movement is push forward to go into first (downshift), pull back to go into second (upshift). Why Porsche would reverse this for PDK lever shifting seems insane!
Wrong. For probably every stick shift I've ever learned on, approaching a hot corner in third I pull the gear lever back towards me to DOWNshift.
Gimme a break. When you're 16 years old, learning to drive a stick, rolling to a red light, where's the downshift? It's forward.
After the light turns green where's the upshift? It's back.
Done.
I'll let a Porsche GT3 race car express my opinion in this matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkIUUp6epE&feature=related
Since Porsche is using the forward - down, back - up on the race cars there must be something to it, don't ya think
And I don't buy the whole "the forward - up, back - down on the PDK will be familiar to Tiptronic users" argument. People who buy a Tiptronic 911 can't remember which way up or down goes anyway...
Re: PDK Test & Review
We do not know the real reason behind it, and might find out when some journalist will push them to answer.
But to me it is NOT an issue. It's just a 'get used to it ' thing. Common, are we all so tight up that we can not adapt to this ? Using joy stick, sticks, paddles, puddles , buttons, computers or any other devices is always different. And the brain/ hands adapt very quickly.
The gears on a normal motorbike goes first down and all the rest up. But when you use a racing motorbike, it's first up and the rest down....
So it' s the complete opposite. And for non pro, it does not make any difference other then getting used to it!!
But to me it is NOT an issue. It's just a 'get used to it ' thing. Common, are we all so tight up that we can not adapt to this ? Using joy stick, sticks, paddles, puddles , buttons, computers or any other devices is always different. And the brain/ hands adapt very quickly.
The gears on a normal motorbike goes first down and all the rest up. But when you use a racing motorbike, it's first up and the rest down....
So it' s the complete opposite. And for non pro, it does not make any difference other then getting used to it!!
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Gnil said:
We do not know the real reason behind it, and might find out when some journalist will push them to answer.
But to me it is NOT an issue. It's just a 'get used to it ' thing. Common, are we all so tight up that we can not adapt to this ? Using joy stick, sticks, paddles, puddles , buttons, computers or any other devices is always different. And the brain/ hands adapt very quickly.
The gears on a normal motorbike goes first down and all the rest up. But when you use a racing motorbike, it's first up and the rest down....
So it' s the complete opposite. And for non pro, it does not make any difference other then getting used to it!!
I agree with you. This is a non-issue, unless one has a sclerotic brain whose symptoms tend to be a reaction to accept change and adapt.
Re: PDK Test & Review
This is a very real issue. The method that BMW use on the SMG is not only intuative but it is also the way race sequential boxes are setup most often, and for good reason :
As you slow down your body is thrown forward, making the most natural movement possible to push forward on the stick to change down.
As you accelerate you are thrown back into the seat making the most natural movement possible to pull back on the stick to change up.
I drove M3 SMG for 4 years and never once did I push the stick the wrong way. Its not a BMW -v- Porsche thing, its a Porsche -v- intuition and the rest of the world thing.
Ive no idea why they hve done this but I agree with the comments earlier it is going to take some getting use to. I am a huge fan of sequential gearboxes and really wanted PDK when I ordered my car last year. I was certain I would get PDK on the next one but I feel that the reverse layout and the lack of paddles might make the experience not what I had hoped. A test drive is required!
As you slow down your body is thrown forward, making the most natural movement possible to push forward on the stick to change down.
As you accelerate you are thrown back into the seat making the most natural movement possible to pull back on the stick to change up.
I drove M3 SMG for 4 years and never once did I push the stick the wrong way. Its not a BMW -v- Porsche thing, its a Porsche -v- intuition and the rest of the world thing.
Ive no idea why they hve done this but I agree with the comments earlier it is going to take some getting use to. I am a huge fan of sequential gearboxes and really wanted PDK when I ordered my car last year. I was certain I would get PDK on the next one but I feel that the reverse layout and the lack of paddles might make the experience not what I had hoped. A test drive is required!
Re: PDK Test & Review
For me pushing foprward is down, pulling back is up. It may be that the "natural" shifting action will be irrelevant at some point as we are all quite adaptable.
However, tell that to a fighter pilot. He'll push forward to go up when he's inverted for sure but not the other way round. lol
It's a bit like using a mouse in a 3d FPS game. A lot of people push forward on the mouse to look up and pull back to look down and this movement is reciprocated when using a mouse in a normal way anyway. This is perfectly natural mouse operation, albeit in 2D!
I, however, do the opposite. So push forward to look down in a 3D FPS game and pull back to look up....weird. Of course I don't use this method when operating in 2D though. 
Does this actually make sense.
However, tell that to a fighter pilot. He'll push forward to go up when he's inverted for sure but not the other way round. lol
It's a bit like using a mouse in a 3d FPS game. A lot of people push forward on the mouse to look up and pull back to look down and this movement is reciprocated when using a mouse in a normal way anyway. This is perfectly natural mouse operation, albeit in 2D!
I, however, do the opposite. So push forward to look down in a 3D FPS game and pull back to look up....weird.
Of course I don't use this method when operating in 2D though. Does this actually make sense.
Re: PDK Test & Review
How about this:
-PDK is replacement for TIP, not for manual(FACT)
-PDK is aimed more to TIP costumers then to manual costumers(FACT)
-PDK driver is expected to drive 98% of time in auto mode(be it normal, Sport or Sport Plus)(FACT)
-PDK is prone to overriding manual gearchange input despite manual mode(FACT-since not only my Motorpresse friend but, two independant journalist experienced that first hand)
-PDK in auto mode changes gears the way you would never do manually(FACT-sometimes it changes in the middle of fast corner, sometimes two gears down-then up one gear-as PDKs AI do not know what to do. It is gearbox capable of learning do not forget that)
So, PDK or manual? If you are true sportscar enthusiast and really like total control then only one choice-manual.
On the other hand if you will drive your 997 around traffic a lot and like less demanding approach PDK is excellent choice.
Just one thing-PDK is new. How reliable will it be? Two press cars already experinced some problems(PDK override manual input after spirited driving and even restarting the car did not solve the problem)...
-PDK is replacement for TIP, not for manual(FACT)
-PDK is aimed more to TIP costumers then to manual costumers(FACT)
-PDK driver is expected to drive 98% of time in auto mode(be it normal, Sport or Sport Plus)(FACT)
-PDK is prone to overriding manual gearchange input despite manual mode(FACT-since not only my Motorpresse friend but, two independant journalist experienced that first hand)
-PDK in auto mode changes gears the way you would never do manually(FACT-sometimes it changes in the middle of fast corner, sometimes two gears down-then up one gear-as PDKs AI do not know what to do. It is gearbox capable of learning do not forget that)
So, PDK or manual? If you are true sportscar enthusiast and really like total control then only one choice-manual.
On the other hand if you will drive your 997 around traffic a lot and like less demanding approach PDK is excellent choice.
Just one thing-PDK is new. How reliable will it be? Two press cars already experinced some problems(PDK override manual input after spirited driving and even restarting the car did not solve the problem)...
Jun 17, 2008 9:53:00 AM
- rantanplan
- Pilot
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- Loc: Stuttgart , Germany
- Posts: 355, Gallery
- Registered on: Oct 7, 2006
- Reply to: Adam2S
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Adam2S said:
This is a very real issue. The method that BMW use on the SMG is not only intuative but it is also the way race sequential boxes are setup most often, and for good reason :
As you slow down your body is thrown forward, making the most natural movement possible to push forward on the stick to change down.
As you accelerate you are thrown back into the seat making the most natural movement possible to pull back on the stick to change up.
I drove M3 SMG for 4 years and never once did I push the stick the wrong way. Its not a BMW -v- Porsche thing, its a Porsche -v- intuition and the rest of the world thing.
Ive no idea why they hve done this but I agree with the comments earlier it is going to take some getting use to. I am a huge fan of sequential gearboxes and really wanted PDK when I ordered my car last year. I was certain I would get PDK on the next one but I feel that the reverse layout and the lack of paddles might make the experience not what I had hoped. A test drive is required!
I agree 100%
Re: PDK Test & Review
Quote:
Gnil said:
We do not know the real reason behind it, and might find out when some journalist will push them to answer.
But to me it is NOT an issue. It's just a 'get used to it ' thing. Common, are we all so tight up that we can not adapt to this ? Using joy stick, sticks, paddles, puddles , buttons, computers or any other devices is always different. And the brain/ hands adapt very quickly.
The gears on a normal motorbike goes first down and all the rest up. But when you use a racing motorbike, it's first up and the rest down....
So it' s the complete opposite. And for non pro, it does not make any difference other then getting used to it!!
I agree but people love to criticise
Re: PDK Test & Review
If you have a problem with the buttons being the wrong way surely one can change the wires in the steering wheel so that the buttons work the opposite way???? Therefore: Problem Solved!
I thought the better argument for this post would be as to whether PDK is faster than its competitors, and whether it "enhances" the driving experience (like F430 F1 box) or detracts from it (like early Lambo E-Gear)??
I thought the better argument for this post would be as to whether PDK is faster than its competitors, and whether it "enhances" the driving experience (like F430 F1 box) or detracts from it (like early Lambo E-Gear)??
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