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    Jun 5, 2008 10:54:16 PM

    fritz
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    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
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    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    AFAIK HvS does flying laps and also start and stop in those same two points.



    And Porsche (WR)?



    The Porsche figures are the outcome of the same (i.e. SportAuto) test procedure. Thus, Porsche (WR) and SportAuto lap times are comparable.



    Someone VERY knowledgeable on this forum told me otherwise...that Porsche timed from a standing start.



    The apparently conflicting statements above are not necessarily contradictory.

    N'Ring circuit operators enforce a speed limit through the pit lane. Drivers going for a timed lap immediately after a full warm-up lap have to go through the pit lane slowly and accelerate fiercely after the speed-limited area and "fly" past the starting line at which timing is started.

    Should a driver for any reason want to do a timed lap without an immediately preceding warm-up lap, he would effectively do a standing start from the pit-lane, and then accelerate after the speed-limited area and "fly" past the starting line at which timing is started.

    So there is a flying start past the "Start" lap-trigger regardless of whether the car started from a standstill for that lap or not. The "Finish" lap-trigger is maybe 150 meters before the "Start", so there is not a single start/finsih line as is the case at most closed circuits.

    As MKSGR implied above, everyone uses the same test and timing procedure just described. Unless, of course, they are out to mislead someone.

    I hope that explanation is fairly clear. It's getting late here.

    Jun 6, 2008 12:36:56 AM

    Dock (Atlanta)
    Pilot
    Dock (Atlanta)
    Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts: 386, Gallery
    Registered on: May 1, 2002
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    AFAIK HvS does flying laps and also start and stop in those same two points.



    And Porsche (WR)?



    The Porsche figures are the outcome of the same (i.e. SportAuto) test procedure. Thus, Porsche (WR) and SportAuto lap times are comparable.



    Someone VERY knowledgeable on this forum told me otherwise...that Porsche timed from a standing start.



    The apparently conflicting statements above are not necessarily contradictory.

    N'Ring circuit operators enforce a speed limit through the pit lane. Drivers going for a timed lap immediately after a full warm-up lap have to go through the pit lane slowly and accelerate fiercely after the speed-limited area and "fly" past the starting line at which timing is started.

    Should a driver for any reason want to do a timed lap without an immediately preceding warm-up lap, he would effectively do a standing start from the pit-lane, and then accelerate after the speed-limited area and "fly" past the starting line at which timing is started.

    So there is a flying start past the "Start" lap-trigger regardless of whether the car started from a standstill for that lap or not. The "Finish" lap-trigger is maybe 150 meters before the "Start", so there is not a single start/finsih line as is the case at most closed circuits.

    As MKSGR implied above, everyone uses the same test and timing procedure just described. Unless, of course, they are out to mislead someone.

    I hope that explanation is fairly clear. It's getting late here.



    Thanks for the clarification. Does the timing you described also occur when a manufacturer rents the track (if renting the track is possible)?

    Jun 6, 2008 9:13:48 AM

    fritz
    Rennteam VIP
    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
    Posts: 10248, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Thanks for the clarification. Does the timing you described also occur when a manufacturer rents the track (if renting the track is possible)?



    I think you are assuming that the timing is done "centrally" and "officially" by the track's operators. This is not the case, and each party wanting to do timed laps has to provide, set up and operate its own timing equipment (assuming it is more comprehensive than a driver-actuated stopwatch).

    Obviously, this leaves a lot of leeway for interested parties to "optimize" the results.

    This is why sport auto's Supertest lap times are looked upon as the best available neutral benchmark, since they are achieved by the same competent driver under as nearly-equal conditions as weather and track conditions at the time of the test allow.

    The very fact that Horst von Saurma is likely to do a Supertest of all the likely "candidates" should have the effect of keeping the "interested parties" honest. A lot of people on here are looking forward to him finally driving the Euro spec GTR at the Ring next year.

    Jun 6, 2008 9:27:56 AM

    Ziggy
    Expert
    Ziggy
    Loc:
    Posts: 1600, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 27, 2004
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Thanks for the clarification. Does the timing you described also occur when a manufacturer rents the track (if renting the track is possible)?



    I think you are assuming that the timing is done "centrally" and "officially" by the track's operators. This is not the case, and each party wanting to do timed laps has to provide, set up and operate its own timing equipment (assuming it is more comprehensive than a driver-actuated stopwatch).

    Obviously, this leaves a lot of leeway for interested parties to "optimize" the results.

    This is why sport auto's Supertest lap times are looked upon as the best available neutral benchmark, since they are achieved by the same competent driver under as nearly-equal conditions as weather and track conditions at the time of the test allow.

    The very fact that Horst von Saurma is likely to do a Supertest of all the likely "candidates" should have the effect of keeping the "interested parties" honest. A lot of people on here are looking forward to him finally driving the Euro spec GTR at the Ring next year.



    Also, I once read here that, when performing the Supertest, SA has the results validated by a third independant party ?

    Jun 6, 2008 1:07:10 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Carlos from Spain
    Loc: Spain. , Spain
    Posts: 21152, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Thanks for the clarification. Does the timing you described also occur when a manufacturer rents the track (if renting the track is possible)?



    I think you are assuming that the timing is done "centrally" and "officially" by the track's operators. This is not the case, and each party wanting to do timed laps has to provide, set up and operate its own timing equipment (assuming it is more comprehensive than a driver-actuated stopwatch).

    Obviously, this leaves a lot of leeway for interested parties to "optimize" the results.

    This is why sport auto's Supertest lap times are looked upon as the best available neutral benchmark, since they are achieved by the same competent driver under as nearly-equal conditions as weather and track conditions at the time of the test allow.

    The very fact that Horst von Saurma is likely to do a Supertest of all the likely "candidates" should have the effect of keeping the "interested parties" honest. A lot of people on here are looking forward to him finally driving the Euro spec GTR at the Ring next year.



    Great explanations Fritz, thanks!

    Jun 6, 2008 4:27:02 PM

    Ferdie
    Rennteam VIP
    Ferdie
    Loc: Europe , Germany
    Posts: 8234, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 2, 2004
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Great explanation. One has to add that SportAuto intends to run the Supertest on one batch of tires, so contrary to manufacturer's claims the car has already put some distance on these tires prior to the timed laps at HHR and NS.

    I have stated it once and for the interested ones (obviously not everyone) again, von Saurma is as close as an amateur or semi-professional gets within the performance limits of these sportscars. His times are a good indicator of a car's performance, this does not mean factory drivers or owners with long experience on a particular model could not reach these speeds. From my personal experience, once von Saurma's times are off the manufacturer's claim and his comments become discerning, an average driver should take them into account.
    And as another additional information, his laptime in the Zonda F was just five seconds off the official record attempted by Pagani themselves with Marc Basseng at the wheel (being one very fast driver in VLN & other series). Some people endlessly debating on these forums would not be able to get close to whichever laptime.

    Gotta go now, coffee is ready...

    Jun 7, 2008 4:51:16 AM

    Dock (Atlanta)
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    Dock (Atlanta)
    Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts: 386, Gallery
    Registered on: May 1, 2002
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    I think you are assuming that the timing is done "centrally" and "officially" by the track's operators.



    No, I did not assume that.

    I am interested in knowing if manufacturers ever rent the whole track, and if they do what kind of timing arrangements are then used.

    I am aware of the benefits of using Sport Auto as a standard.

    Jun 7, 2008 8:54:48 AM

    fritz
    Rennteam VIP
    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
    Posts: 10248, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    I think you are assuming that the timing is done "centrally" and "officially" by the track's operators.



    No, I did not assume that.

    I am interested in knowing if manufacturers ever rent the whole track, and if they do what kind of timing arrangements are then used.

    I am aware of the benefits of using Sport Auto as a standard.



    The circuit can be rented on an exclusive basis when other long-term commitments allow.
    I am not aware of whether the circuit operators are in a position to provide telemetric timing equipment and personnel, if that should be desired by the client.

    Jun 7, 2008 12:02:07 PM

    BiTurbo
    Rennteam Master
    BiTurbo
    Loc: X , United States
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    Registered on: Jan 27, 2006
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Anyone heard of this problem before ?

    http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/98890-high-speed-ride-now-getting-dangerous.html

    Jun 7, 2008 2:13:06 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
    Rennteam Moderator
    Whoopsy
    Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada
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    Registered on: Sep 19, 2006
    Reply to: BiTurbo

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    It's really NOT a new problem at all, I test drove one back in December and I have already commented that the car do have trouble managing it's weight in the bends, and it starts earlier than 180km/h. Because of the nearly 4000lb of curb weight, it's not a sharp handling car and the only really the car turns so well despite it's weight is the way Nissan tune the 4wd system to aid in turning. But it still have to obey physics and so the computer cannot mask everything.

    To me the closest comparison would be like driving a Saleen tuned Mustang, but with more traction.
     
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