May 31, 2008 1:01:31 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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May 31, 2008 1:25:04 AM
- edz
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Ron (Houston)
May 31, 2008 1:44:49 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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May 31, 2008 1:57:36 AM
- JoeRockhead
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Ron (Houston)
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Wow... I loved my E46 but maybe I should give the new M3 a second look. It looks like the only thing the GT-R is good at is going around the race track. They really bashed it as far as road noise and comfort etc.
If you look at points for rear seat access and comfort, as well as trunk space, you can see where the TT lost a ton of points... although it was probably price that killed it. As other cars move into the same performance arena for much less $$$, the TT will continue to take a beating by reviewers. Let's not forget that this is Car and Driver, who love to award just enough points in the price category to ensure the Vette wins over everything else. If the Z06 was part of this test, it would have won for sure.
If you look at points for rear seat access and comfort, as well as trunk space, you can see where the TT lost a ton of points... although it was probably price that killed it. As other cars move into the same performance arena for much less $$$, the TT will continue to take a beating by reviewers. Let's not forget that this is Car and Driver, who love to award just enough points in the price category to ensure the Vette wins over everything else. If the Z06 was part of this test, it would have won for sure.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
edz said:
... If porsche could build the TT at the same price of M3 or GTR they certainly would. ...
Not a chance. I doubt the Turbo costs much more to build than the base 911.
It's actually the other way around... PAG will always find an excuse to charge more. Consider the Cayman - a Boxster coupe that was launched after the convertible and costs more...
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz said:
... If porsche could build the TT at the same price of M3 or GTR they certainly would. ...
Not a chance. I doubt the Turbo costs much more to build than the base 911.
It's actually the other way around... PAG will always find an excuse to charge more. Consider the Cayman - a Boxster coupe that was launched after the convertible and costs more...
You are joking right? How on earth did you figure a race bred boxter engine + 4 wheel drive + Twin Turbo amenities costing not much more than a base 911
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
edz said:Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz said:
... If porsche could build the TT at the same price of M3 or GTR they certainly would. ...
Not a chance. I doubt the Turbo costs much more to build than the base 911.
It's actually the other way around... PAG will always find an excuse to charge more. Consider the Cayman - a Boxster coupe that was launched after the convertible and costs more...
You are joking right? How on earth did you figure a race bred boxter engine + 4 wheel drive + Twin Turbo amenities costing not much more than a base 911
A TT certainly does not cost 40k more to build than a base 911. No way!
Do not confuse manufacture's costs with retail costs.
One more thing... I am not joking, i just do not drink the PAG "Kool-Aid" any longer.
May 31, 2008 8:07:18 AM
- SoCalHoosier
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Ron (Houston)
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I haven't read the article yet but briefly looking at highs and lows for each car, I don't understand how M3 is their #1 choice.
Agreed... even after reading the detailed description of the M3, I still couldn't figure out why they would choose it. Does BMW advertise heavily with this publication?
May 31, 2008 10:57:58 AM
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MKSGR
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Ron (Houston)
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
These GTR test results (first test with a regular US production car, right?) are not impressive... Poor acceleration figures and a minor advantage on the 997TT in terms of lap time - an advantage that would probably not even exist if the 997TT was equipped with Cup tires. Not impressive Nissan 
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
MKSGR said:
These GTR test results (first test with a regular US production car, right?) are not impressive... Poor acceleration figures and a minor advantage on the 997TT in terms of lap time - an advantage that would probably not even exist if the 997TT was equipped with Cup tires. Not impressive Nissan
Have you read the article? They clearly said that this GT-R was in very bad condition and that they tested another one lately and got much better results (as with the first one).
Not impressive for 997 Turbo, that it can still not outrun the GT-R (for half of the price) on the track, even if the GT-R is in bad condition, on runflats (which are inferior to regular tires) and with 150kg more.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
mv said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
These GTR test results (first test with a regular US production car, right?) are not impressive... Poor acceleration figures and a minor advantage on the 997TT in terms of lap time - an advantage that would probably not even exist if the 997TT was equipped with Cup tires. Not impressive Nissan
Have you read the article? They clearly said that this GT-R was in very bad condition and that they tested another one lately and got much better results (as with the first one).
Not impressive for 997 Turbo, that it can still not outrun the GT-R (for half of the price) on the track, even if the GT-R is in bad condition, on runflats (which are inferior to regular tires) and with 150kg more.
The fact itself (the tested car was in bad condition) casts a very bad light on the GTR. Porsche cars are always in very, very similar shape as they are quality products
BTW: the 997TT is two years old now. The GTR is brand new (will not be on sale in most European countries until mid-2009). For me this test confirms that the GTR hype will come to an end soon - as soon as enough reliable and unbiased tests will have been published.
May 31, 2008 1:38:41 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz said:
... If porsche could build the TT at the same price of M3 or GTR they certainly would. ...
Not a chance. I doubt the Turbo costs much more to build than the base 911.
It's actually the other way around... PAG will always find an excuse to charge more. Consider the Cayman - a Boxster coupe that was launched after the convertible and costs more...
Most manufacturers like to recoup their R&D costs. The development costs of the TT motor which is all new need to be spread across the relatively small number they will sell compared to the N/A 3.6 in the base model, which is quite similar to the 996 motor. They learned their lesson from the 959 where it cost them $720,000 to build each car even though they sold them for a third of that. It cost Peter Schutz his job.
Nissan has had a GT-R development center at the Nurburgring for 5 years. That's a lot engineers and R&D money. Based on the very limited sales numbers of the GT-R, there is no way that they are selling this car for $70K with making a profit or even breaking even in mind. I don't think it's fair to give Nissan credit for selling this car for $70K when its true cost is almost certainly much, much higher.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
mv said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
These GTR test results (first test with a regular US production car, right?) are not impressive... Poor acceleration figures and a minor advantage on the 997TT in terms of lap time - an advantage that would probably not even exist if the 997TT was equipped with Cup tires. Not impressive Nissan
Have you read the article? They clearly said that this GT-R was in very bad condition and that they tested another one lately and got much better results (as with the first one).
Not impressive for 997 Turbo, that it can still not outrun the GT-R (for half of the price) on the track, even if the GT-R is in bad condition, on runflats (which are inferior to regular tires) and with 150kg more.
The fact itself (the tested car was in bad condition) casts a very bad light on the GTR. Porsche cars are always in very, very similar shape as they are quality products
BTW: the 997TT is two years old now. The GTR is brand new (will not be on sale in most European countries until mid-2009). For me this test confirms that the GTR hype will come to an end soon - as soon as enough reliable and unbiased tests will have been published.
Agree with the latter part.
Well, the 997 turbo had also some weird results and is not that consistent. Lets take the Car and Driver. The 997 Turbo also produced shattering times in the first test and later in comparison test against R8 was rather sluggish - the difference was basically the same between those two CaD 997TT test as with these CaD GT-R tests. (the 977tt also needed 19s to hit 140mph in second test)
And I dont think the bad condition of the car casts a bad light on the GT-R if the car was really abused hard for a long time from the very beginning (no break-in...)
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
ADias said:
A TT certainly does not cost 40k more to build than a base 911. No way!
Do not confuse manufacture's costs with retail costs.
One more thing... I am not joking, i just do not drink the PAG "Kool-Aid" any longer.
Just the engine costs probably $20k more.
Add the AWD, brakes, standard equipment additional vs the base and of course a somewhat higher margin and there goes the $40k. The TT is priced correctly, it is a bargain for the performance vs AM Ferrari or Lambo. Everything is relative. Don't like the price? Don't buy one, Porsche is selling almost all the TT (and GT3/2) it can produce, why should it be cheaper? Simple economics, they don't even care for now that a much cheaper car can bet them in performance.
That said, the TT should shed 100kg right now to end all debates. Put these carbon seats, PCCB to start with, sunroof delete, lighter exhaust, more CF and a better AWD system lighter (PTM), the engine should loose weight also, not sure how though.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
IMO this GT-R debate is becoming really heavy. All the arguments for and against have been presented and supported to a certain degree. There is no point carrying on because nothing new is offered.
Resume: the GT-R is a very fast car (faster than Porsche Turbo and Ferrari), it is cheap (perhaps subsidised, but who cares) and of cotroversial styling that is considered in bad taste by some and exciting by others. Nissan got their 15 minutes of fame (longer of course), they will sell all the cars they will make and good luck to them. Is this the car to end all others? Of course not!
Let's leave it at that!
Resume: the GT-R is a very fast car (faster than Porsche Turbo and Ferrari), it is cheap (perhaps subsidised, but who cares) and of cotroversial styling that is considered in bad taste by some and exciting by others. Nissan got their 15 minutes of fame (longer of course), they will sell all the cars they will make and good luck to them. Is this the car to end all others? Of course not!
Let's leave it at that!
May 31, 2008 3:43:46 PM
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nberry
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I haven't read the article yet but briefly looking at highs and lows for each car, I don't understand how M3 is their #1 choice
Ron there is no better way to sell a magazine than to come up with an unexpected result. BMW owners will flock to news stand to buy the magazine and 911 owners will buy to figyre out how they came up with such a result. Had they found the GT-R the winner where is the news? Every other magazine has found the GT-R best for the money.
As an aside, what is becoming obvious is the affect of the GT-R has had with the media concerning Porsche. They now view the 911 in a different light and clearly not for the better. Their eyes are opening.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
''For me this test confirms that the GTR hype will come to an end soon - as soon as enough reliable and unbiased tests will have been published.''
Sorry to be pedantic but this is a prediction, not a confirmation. The future cannot be confirmed until it happens.
The test does augur well for the new CSL - the chance for the empire to strike back.
BTW I predict that the GTR hype will continue for quite some time.
Sorry to be pedantic but this is a prediction, not a confirmation. The future cannot be confirmed until it happens.
The test does augur well for the new CSL - the chance for the empire to strike back.
BTW I predict that the GTR hype will continue for quite some time.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
AUM said:
''For me this test confirms that the GTR hype will come to an end soon - as soon as enough reliable and unbiased tests will have been published.''
Sorry to be pedantic but this is a prediction, not a confirmation. The future cannot be confirmed until it happens.
I disagree... The test confirms my expectation not the future
As my expectation is not the future it can be confirmed by test results 
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
AUM said:
''For me this test confirms that the GTR hype will come to an end soon - as soon as enough reliable and unbiased tests will have been published.''
Sorry to be pedantic but this is a prediction, not a confirmation. The future cannot be confirmed until it happens.
The test does augur well for the new CSL - the chance for the empire to strike back.
BTW I predict that the GTR hype will continue for quite some time.
AUm why do you keep bringing up the CSL, I'm sure it's going to be a disappointmet just like it's brother - the regular M3
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Really should all be about price, if money didnt matter, would anyone honestly pick a GTR over a 911 turbo? All comes down to what you can afford.
The GTR is a great great car, but its not a porsche and it doesn't have the detailed customization of a porsche.
The GTR reminds me of the z06 when it came out, serious performance numbers, low sticker price, not much attention to interior detail and perfection.
You get what you pay for, as with everything.
The GTR is a great great car, but its not a porsche and it doesn't have the detailed customization of a porsche.
The GTR reminds me of the z06 when it came out, serious performance numbers, low sticker price, not much attention to interior detail and perfection.
You get what you pay for, as with everything.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Quote:
Kozzoloz said:
Really should all be about price, if money didnt matter, would anyone honestly pick a GTR over a 911 turbo?
Yes me. If both cars were free and I had to choose one, it would be the GTR over the Turbo (and I have owned Turbos). The GTR is faster and more practical than the TT with bigger back seats and a trunk.
However, in reality I would not choose either. I like RWD N/A sports cars that weigh less than 1500 kg. Of these the GT3 is the best. Or a CSL if you need 4 seats and a trunk.
Re: C&D July issue M3, GT-R and 997TT
Thanks for that eclou.
However, this test is a joke. Who was driving ? An old lady ?
The GT-R is not that fast as they have shown in the first test (11.5 at 124mph) but 0-100mph in more than 10s ? Come on. Privately owned japanese spec cars do this under 8,5s. The US spec version of GT-R is definitely slower, due to inferior fuel, but this is way too much.
Look at the 997 GT2 numbers. Also way slower and by a great margin the slowest 997 GT2 test so far. The american cars seems to be OK. So the grandma behind the wheel was a patriot.
The CaD tests seem to have no credibility.
However, this test is a joke. Who was driving ? An old lady ?
The GT-R is not that fast as they have shown in the first test (11.5 at 124mph) but 0-100mph in more than 10s ? Come on. Privately owned japanese spec cars do this under 8,5s. The US spec version of GT-R is definitely slower, due to inferior fuel, but this is way too much.
Look at the 997 GT2 numbers. Also way slower and by a great margin the slowest 997 GT2 test so far. The american cars seems to be OK. So the grandma behind the wheel was a patriot.
The CaD tests seem to have no credibility.
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